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If you change (via adjustments) loft is it he same as....

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rollin

rollin

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....the club if it would have been bought with the new loft as its basic setting.

To explain further I will use my club as example. I have a Titl 910D2 driver 9.5* set up to a +.75 (or lets say 10.25*).
I could set it up to +1.5* (or lets say 11*)

Now this driver does not come in 10.25 but does come in a 10.5. For sake of discussion lets suppose my 9.5 could adjust up +1* (instead of +.75) therefore resulting in a 10.5*

What im wondering is if the 9.5 driver were able to set up with a plus1* to 10.5 would that be the same as if one simply bought a 10.5 to begin with. Or is there some penalty involved where as its not quite the same?

This doesn't have to be only for titleist but any club with such adjustment options. But now that I think about it the 910 did come in a 12* and so wouldn't then the base 10'5 club stepped up to a plus 1.5* (which is a step option in the adjustment and now being 12) be the same as the 12* driver? Or is there some small penalty going on somewhere with this.
 
I'm not an expert, but my simple "educated guess/answer" would be no, the clubs aren't exactly the same when adjusted to "x" loft vs purchasing one in "x" loft. If you buy a 9.5 degree and turn it up to say 10.5 the adapter will close the face at the same time. If you buy a pre made 10.5 degree it will be neutral "for the most part". And vice versa
 
rollin said:
....the club if it would have been bought with the new loft as its basic setting.

To explain further I will use my club as example. I have a Titl 910D2 driver 9.5* set up to a +.75 (or lets say 10.25*).
I could set it up to +1.5* (or lets say 11*)

Now this driver does not come in 10.25 but does come in a 10.5. For sake of discussion lets suppose my 9.5 could adjust up +1* (instead of +.75) therefore resulting in a 10.5*

What im wondering is if the 9.5 driver were able to set up with a plus1* to 10.5 would that be the same as if one simply bought a 10.5 to begin with. Or is there some penalty involved where as its not quite the same?

This doesn't have to be only for titleist but any club with such adjustment options. But now that I think about it the 910 did come in a 12* and so wouldn't then the base 10'5 club stepped up to a plus 1.5* (which is a step option in the adjustment and now being 12) be the same as the 12* driver? Or is there some small penalty going on somewhere with this.
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No. In case of the Titleist in particular when you check the manual adding loft closes the face slightly (depends on the model and how much loft is added) and lowering the loft opens the face slightly (again varies by model). The upright/flat angles that are listed also impact the face angle.

Callaway is the same in their Dual cog, but not sure how much and I know that Taylormade with their current adjustable hosel is the same, every click changes the face angle 1*.

This is why I bought a 9.5* M2 head, but set it to 11* so I can close the face 2* and help mitigate my fade. Someone who fights hooks might go with a 10.5 and loft it down to 9.5 for the opposite effect.

Not sure about Nike or Mizuno or some other OEMs but think it would be difficult to change the loft without also impacting the face angle. Somehow Cobra seems to do it pretty well with their Smart Sole.
 
What Mancest said. The only thing I can add is that none of the settings matter if you don't ground the club first and then take your grip.

If you made an adjustment but the used the leading edge of the club to take your grip you've negated any changes you've made in the adapter settings.
 
-CRW- said:
What Mancest said. The only thing I can add is that none of the settings matter if you don't ground the club first and then take your grip.

If you made an adjustment but the used the leading edge of the club to take your grip you've negated any changes you've made in the adapter settings.
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What if you use the actual grip to align yourself and not the face? I usually go label up on my grips for this reason, I grip in the same spot and then get the closed face that I need.
 
Along the lines of what mancest says... Cally techs have said in a video I saw here that each degree of loft added closes the clubface by roughly .5°.
 
-CRW- said:
What Mancest said. The only thing I can add is that none of the settings matter if you don't ground the club first and then take your grip.

If you made an adjustment but the used the leading edge of the club to take your grip you've negated any changes you've made in the adapter settings.
Click to expand...

If I understand what you mean correctly, you have this backwards
 
-CRW- said:
What Mancest said. The only thing I can add is that none of the settings matter if you don't ground the club first and then take your grip.

If you made an adjustment but the used the leading edge of the club to take your grip you've negated any changes you've made in the adapter settings.
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and this makes the whole thing even more tricky. The whole thing gets a bit bonkers honestly. I mean adjusting loft changes face and yet if you line the club head square at address even after adjustments then I suppose none of it matters. Why not just take the club at its neutral setting and simply open or close your face at address therefore making your adjustments .

But my whole questions about adjustments being any penalty (and perhaps I should have been more clear) is also more of a "club not being quite the same anymore" type of thing. What I mean is this and I hope its interesting enough to consider.

I think it stands to reason with a club being stock setup position everything (all pieces involved...the head, housel ) would be fit together in such a way where as all is lined up and offers all the characteristics and all its factors in ball striking performance the club was designed to do. Angles, moi, cog, swing weight, etc..are all part of the heads design for maximum performance. But when we adjust the head we are in a sense twisting or distorting the whole design and all those factors. So in a sense are we not then limiting the clubs true potential? We are in a sense correcting for our swing flaw/s or desired flight which we may want to or need to do, but in doing so we are distorting the design and are we not also limiting what the club was originally capable of doing? Sort of penalizing its true capability? I mean we do it because it works better for us but I ask did the club itself lose potential or suffer some penalty?
 
Don' forget about the manufacturing tolerances which on drivers is in many cases +/- 1*. I can take 5 of the exact same drivers off the rack and notice differences in face angle and sometimes loft in at least 2 or 3 of the 5. The same is true with putters. When I recently bought my O'Works it definitely set up differently at address than the other two they had on the floor.
 
tahoebum said:
Don' forget about the manufacturing tolerances which on drivers is in many cases +/- 1*. I can take 5 of the exact same drivers off the rack and notice differences in face angle and sometimes loft in at least 2 or 3 of the 5. The same is true with putters. When I recently bought my O'Works it definitely set up differently at address than the other two they had on the floor.
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yes I agree and was going to mention that part but thought for a change to keep my post a tad shorter than normal...lol.
 
rollin said:
and this makes the whole thing even more tricky. The whole thing gets a bit bonkers honestly. I mean adjusting loft changes face and yet if you line the club head square at address even after adjustments then I suppose none of it matters. Why not just take the club at its neutral setting and simply open or close your face at address therefore making your adjustments .

But my whole questions about adjustments being any penalty (and perhaps I should have been more clear) is also more of a "club not being quite the same anymore" type of thing. What I mean is this and I hope its interesting enough to consider.

I think it stands to reason with a club being stock setup position everything (all pieces involved...the head, housel ) would be fit together in such a way where as all is lined up and offers all the characteristics and all its factors in ball striking performance the club was designed to do. Angles, moi, cog, swing weight, etc..are all part of the heads design for maximum performance. But when we adjust the head we are in a sense twisting or distorting the whole design and all those factors. So in a sense are we not then limiting the clubs true potential? We are in a sense correcting for our swing flaw/s or desired flight which we may want to or need to do, but in doing so we are distorting the design and are we not also limiting what the club was originally capable of doing? Sort of penalizing its true capability? I mean we do it because it works better for us but I ask did the club itself lose potential or suffer some penalty?
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How does one "distort the design" when in reality the newest clubs have been designed with modification of the settings in mind? If you were somehow able to slap an adjustable hosel onto a driver that was meant to be bonded, then sure the adjustments could be seen as distorting the design.
 
JohnSinVA said:
How does one "distort the design" when in reality the newest clubs have been designed with modification of the settings in mind? If you were somehow able to slap an adjustable hosel onto a driver that was meant to be bonded, then sure the adjustments could be seen as distorting the design.
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what Im talking of is distorting all the ball striking factors of which the club holds while only in the factory setup position. I would think those factors is what the club in its factory base position sits at for maximum performance. Now move the head at different angles and all those factors get a tad distorted. We do this intentionally for our desires and/or needs so that the factors work better for our swings and/or to compensate for our swing flaws. So I understand the why's of it all. But in doing so I am thinking the club is no longer sitting in position of its full potential. Not our full potential but the clubs full potential in itself. My thinking is that we are distorting the clubs full potential to better match our needs but in a sense its sort of a penalty (if we can call it that) on the club's full potential in itself.
 
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rollin said:
what Im talking of is distorting all the ball striking factors of which the club holds while only in the factory setup position. I would think those factors is what the club in its factory base position sits at for maximum performance. Now move the head at different angles and all those factors get a tad distorted.
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We are talking about literal degrees, at times 0.5* Do you or most golfer have their hands on the grip in the exact same position each time? If not that is another variable that is off. Then the swing, I know my angles can vary wildly on each and every swing.

On the other side of it, there will be small changes in performance that are seen by altering the settings, but isn't that the point of getting fit, or testing out the different settings to see which one fits you best? Those small alterations could be what helps 1 golfer get the most out of a club.
 
mancest said:
What if you use the actual grip to align yourself and not the face? I usually go label up on my grips for this reason, I grip in the same spot and then get the closed face that I need.
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This won't work exactly the way you intend either unless you fit first and then install the grip with the club resting on it's sole. If you don't take the time to adjust the alignment aids/logo of the grip yourself with the club soled and instead line it up with the leading edge you've negated any changes made via the adapter.

So in other words, in can work, but you better install the grip yourself. I guarantee you if you take it to any golf shop they are just using the leading edge (or a groove/line on the face, or where the face meets the crown - but all end with the same result).

SpartanLife said:
If I understand what you mean correctly, you have this backwards
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No, what I said is correct. Do you have a specific question about it? It's a complicated issue but the ONLY way you see the adjustments is by grounding the club so that the sole rests as it's designed. That is why several manufacturers have designed "smart soles" or something similar.

So if the way I worded it was confusing, I'll say it another way - make your adjustments, ground the club, then take your grip last. This may mean that the club looks open or closed to you depending on the adjustments you've made, but you have to leave it that way to allow the adjustments to do their job.

rollin said:
Why not just take the club at its neutral setting and simply open or close your face at address therefore making your adjustments.
Click to expand...

You could do this. But I'd argue there is more margin for error when trying to do it manually just by "eye-balling" it.


tahoebum said:
Don' forget about the manufacturing tolerances which on drivers is in many cases +/- 1*. I can take 5 of the exact same drivers off the rack and notice differences in face angle and sometimes loft in at least 2 or 3 of the 5. The same is true with putters. When I recently bought my O'Works it definitely set up differently at address than the other two they had on the floor.
Click to expand...

This times 100. If you don't believe him, go to eBay and search for Taylormade Tour Issue heads. I'm sure other brands do something similar, but all TM tour issue heads have a special label where they physically measure the true loft of the head and almost all of them are not what is painted on the side of the club. A 9.5 could actually be 9 or 10*. And these are heads that have been set aside or tour issue use. The tolerances for one off the assembly line seem to be even worse - like a 9.5 could actually be 11.

So if you see better results at the golf store from a specific driver, buy it, and then see a different ball flight on the course/range there is a good chance that it's due to one or more specs not being the same as what you tested even though what you bought is marked the same.

The CT numbers are generally higher on Tour Issue heads as well. People will tell you that this doesn't make a difference or that it's so minor its negligible. This may be true at slower club head speeds or with poor contact in general. But the few tour issue heads with above average CT I've hit do provide 5-10 yards more carry for me compared to the same club at a lower CT. A friend of mine with a slower swing speed sees the same results so I think it's more important than the industry would like you to think.
 
mancest said:
We are talking about literal degrees, at times 0.5* Do you or most golfer have their hands on the grip in the exact same position each time? If not that is another variable that is off. Then the swing, I know my angles can vary wildly on each and every swing.

On the other side of it, there will be small changes in performance that are seen by altering the settings, but isn't that the point of getting fit, or testing out the different settings to see which one fits you best? Those small alterations could be what helps 1 golfer get the most out of a club.
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And being off 1-2* could mean the difference between being in the fairway or out of bounds off the tee with it being more penalizing the longer the distance.

I would rather know what I should be playing and play a club that is as close to those standards as possible at the neutral setting.
 
mancest said:
We are talking about literal degrees, at times 0.5* Do you or most golfer have their hands on the grip in the exact same position each time? If not that is another variable that is off. Then the swing, I know my angles can vary wildly on each and every swing.

On the other side of it, there will be small changes in performance that are seen by altering the settings, but isn't that the point of getting fit, or testing out the different settings to see which one fits you best? Those small alterations could be what helps 1 golfer get the most out of a club.
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I think we all know why we adjust them. But there is still this underlying question as for what its actually doing to the club's potential regardless. lets suppose I need a 12* and than set my 10.5 up 1.5 to give me the 12. I am closing the face so then its not quite perfect match. So then I open the face to compensate via moving the other adjustment and basically sit a tad better for where I need. but then also the lie (which is minimal in a driver) is also affected so it can never be the exact same as simply getting a 12* driver no matter what. But besides all this...what its also doing (and what I been most questioning) is that while we can get close to what we want ,...all factors like moi, cog, swing weight, resistance and etc have now changed or distorted from what the driver head was designed with and can never quite be (or offer) the exact same performance it would have offered prior to those distortions. As we slightly distort the club for our positive gains to hit the ball better via those adjustments the driver itself had to have lost a little something I must assume. Enough to measure I don't really know but in a game that does come down to feet in inches (even with driver) the measurements don't have to be significant in order to make diferences.
 
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rollin said:
what Im talking of is distorting all the ball striking factors of which the club holds while only in the factory setup position. I would think those factors is what the club in its factory base position sits at for maximum performance. Now move the head at different angles and all those factors get a tad distorted. We do this intentionally for our desires and/or needs so that the factors work better for our swings and/or to compensate for our swing flaws. So I understand the why's of it all. But in doing so I am thinking the club is no longer sitting in position of its full potential. Not our full potential but the clubs full potential in itself. My thinking is that we are distorting the clubs full potential to better match our needs but in a sense its sort of a penalty (if we can call it that) on the club's full potential in itself.
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And if the club's "full potential" has you hitting the ball consistently thirty yards into the trees?

The club's potential is dictated by the person holding it. It's full potential is realized when it's configured to maximize the distance/accuracy of the person swinging it. For very few of us, the stock, neutral settings will be the perfect match. I suppose then those few can enjoy a club's full potential as you define it. The rest of us I'm sure will be quite happy with 95+% of full potential and having the ball stay in play.
 
JohnSinVA said:
And if the club's "full potential" has you hitting the ball consistently thirty yards into the trees?

The club's potential is dictated by the person holding it. It's full potential is realized when it's configured to maximize the distance/accuracy of the person swinging it. For very few of us, the stock, neutral settings will be the perfect match. I suppose then those few can enjoy a club's full potential as you define it. The rest of us I'm sure will be quite happy with 95+% of full potential and having the ball stay in play.
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I don't disagree with that. Its why we adjust them. Im not to imply its wrong to do so nor penalizing to do so and in fact helps us postively. But Im just finding the physics of it interesting to discuss as for what is truly happening which may actually be a negative thing as for the clubs potential in itself. We can say .....who cares as long as its working better for us but that's not really the point of my curiosity here.
 
-CRW- said:
What Mancest said. The only thing I can add is that none of the settings matter if you don't ground the club first and then take your grip.

If you made an adjustment but the used the leading edge of the club to take your grip you've negated any changes you've made in the adapter settings.
Click to expand...

-CRW- said:
It's a complicated issue but the ONLY way you see the adjustments is by grounding the club so that the sole rests as it's designed. That is why several manufacturers have designed "smart soles" or something similar.

So if the way I worded it was confusing, I'll say it another way - make your adjustments, ground the club, then take your grip last. This may mean that the club looks open or closed to you depending on the adjustments you've made, but you have to leave it that way to allow the adjustments to do their job.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused on all this because I do seem to experience hosel adjustments making a difference but I never really ground my club? I'll try to explain what I do when I take my grip/stance/swing. First I extend the club out away from me with my right hand (holding shaft, not in gripped position). The club head is up, higher than my head, the grip is about chest high, left center of my ribcage, and the shaft is angled about the same lie angle, just inverted. Looking up at the leading edge, (could be square closed, or open, depending on shot I'm planning) I carefully set the grip in the last 3 fingers of my left (top) hand and then slide my right down off the shaft and set my right grip to compliment my left without disturbing face angle. All this happens with the club still angled up out in front of me. I lower it as I'm setting up and aligning to the ball/target, but the head never really rests on the ground because I'm doing little mini waggles and shuffling into position. My swing pretty much starts as a rebound from a waggle where everything just feels right. Are the hosel adjustments I'm doing making any difference? Should they? They seem to?
 
rollin said:
....the club if it would have been bought with the new loft as its basic setting.

To explain further I will use my club as example. I have a Titl 910D2 driver 9.5* set up to a +.75 (or lets say 10.25*).
I could set it up to +1.5* (or lets say 11*)

Now this driver does not come in 10.25 but does come in a 10.5. For sake of discussion lets suppose my 9.5 could adjust up +1* (instead of +.75) therefore resulting in a 10.5*

What im wondering is if the 9.5 driver were able to set up with a plus1* to 10.5 would that be the same as if one simply bought a 10.5 to begin with. Or is there some penalty involved where as its not quite the same?

This doesn't have to be only for titleist but any club with such adjustment options. But now that I think about it the 910 did come in a 12* and so wouldn't then the base 10'5 club stepped up to a plus 1.5* (which is a step option in the adjustment and now being 12) be the same as the 12* driver? Or is there some small penalty going on somewhere with this.
Click to expand...

It's about the fitting process. Trying achieve optional launch, spin, contact, etc. going with a lower loft and then lofting up can add some spin without going to far with the stated loft of the higher lofted driver. The closing off the face or adjustment in lie angle is all used to get those optimal results. I hit the Titleist 917 d3 9.5 set to d4 (+.75*) than I do the 10.5 head. The 9.5 was fine but with what I was trying to accomplish with ball flight adding loft rather than trying to take loft off worked better.

Most people outside of THPers don't adjust their drivers once set
 
erock9174 said:
Best explanation I've seen regarding adjustable hotels.
From Tom Wishon:

https://youtu.be/aj5KOk2oXU0
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Thanks erock, very informative, and I think it clears things up for me. In my case I think I'm essentially 'sole-ing the club' when I take my grip with the club held inverted. I don't twist it or make adjustments to face angle afterwards when I lower it behind the ball so I'm actually getting the benefit the loft sleeve adjustments were designed to provide.
 
Daddio said:
Thanks erock, very informative, and I think it clears things up for me. In my case I think I'm essentially 'sole-ing the club' when I take my grip with the club held inverted. I don't twist it or make adjustments to face angle afterwards when I lower it behind the ball so I'm actually getting the benefit the loft sleeve adjustments were designed to provide.
Click to expand...

The one problem I see with Wishon's explanation is that he assumes when you square the face that you will set up with the shaft in the same position at address as well (relative to your body). If you look at an adjustable hosel/adapter you will see that it's not uniform. It will actually look slanted from some angles. That's because as you rotate it around through the settings it's changing multiple things at once (loft, lie, face angle) - Wishon explained this using the wooden head and the angle the shaft is bored into it. If you are able to both square the face and position the shaft at address the same all the time you will see the loft changes he's talking about. But I think that's easier said than done. And by going the square route, you might see the loft changes, but you give up the face angle changes.

I think if you go the square route (which I do) you will have a tendency to position the face the same vertically from the ground which diminishes or negates any changes in loft. I hold the club out in front of me when I take my grip and line the face up square and I don't see any significant/consistent changes from adjustments to a driver adapter. If I sole the club after either increasing/decreasing loft, I do see differences in ball flight from the resulting face angle changes. I'm far better off seeing changes in ball flight from loft when changing between drivers that are different lofts in their neutral setting (while going with the square faced idea/method).

I personally think the changes you are seeing are mostly from the lie angle changing how you set up to the ball and ultimately how that change in position relative to the ball alters how your club approaches and impacts the ball.
 
This does a good job of showing what's probably the reality for most of us when it comes to adjustable drivers and the loft changes:



I'm not saying they don't have a place, but just something to think about.
 
-CRW- said:
This does a good job of showing what's probably the reality for most of us when it comes to adjustable drivers and the loft changes:



I'm not saying they don't have a place, but just something to think about.
Click to expand...


crossfield has a lot of really great vids fwiw. I like his information in general.
 
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