Vote: Do you count every single shot?

caeleric said:

personally, i think it's a stupid rule that doesn't make any sense, and i'd love to see a bifurcated system that lets us hackers treat everything like red stakes.

Click to expand...

How would you do that? The problem is, there's no reference point. By definition, if you're dropping where you think the ball was, you're wrong, because you've looked there and not found the ball. Sure, the ball may only be a few feet away from where you're searching, but those few feet can be the difference between a bogey and a 10.

Additionally, what's the criteria for "treat it like a hazard?" Is it only waist-high native grass? What about woods? Only thick woods? What about sparse woods? What about bushes? Really thick rough? Kind of thick rough?

If there's nothing on the line, then all those questions are moot. Drop it wherever you want and penalize yourself whatever you want, or not at all if you prefer.

But if whether you make a bogey or a 10 matters because of a money match, a competition, or a handicap posting, then you've got to have a rule which uses a reference point, and people (in theory) need to play by the same rules. The problem with most proposals of bifurcated or "relaxed rules" is the impact of such rules have not been thought through. Again, in a casual round with friends, none of that matters. Play by whatever rules you and your buddies want. But whenever a comparison of scores is involved, it only works if people are playing by the same, well-thought-out rules.

wadesworld said:

How would you do that? The problem is, there's no reference point.

Click to expand...

what part of bifurcated system is confusing here? hypothetically, if the system suggests to play every white stake as a red stake, only now you cannot play the ball within the "white stake hazard" and instead you need to drop at the point the ball entered the "white stake hazard," that's the same reference point you would use for a red stake. we all know what to do when he plunk one in the water, so do the same thing for a ball hit ob.

if you're asking about a lost ball, i would agree with a suggestion that the current system is certainly the easiest, but i would disagree that the current system is the most time-efficient, and we all b1tch about pace of play. my hypothetical system would address this the same way, but may also rely heavily on local rules to account for different types of potential lost ball provisions. generally, my system would allow for 5 minutes of searching, then dropping at the point at which you last marked the ball, basically treating that point like a hazard stake. we usually know where the ball went bounding into the trees, or the native grass, or even regular rough when the ball sits down and the morning sun on dew makes it impossible to find your ball (man, that one can absolutely take me mentally out of a round).

and to your point that a bifurcated system doesn't account for the impact it has on a game where something is on the line, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and they're defined in a way that is reasonable and applicable, we're all good. or maybe i don't understand your point.

i don't mean to be argumentative; i'm just taking up the banner for us weekend warriors who never play tournaments and just want to play a great game in a reasonable amount of time without silly rules hindering those goals.

I do a practice round every friday with my Dad who doesn't golf much, we do a Mulligan per a 9.

However, every Sunday I play in my golf league and we count everything. If the ball is on a rock/root, I just hit it light and punch it out. These scores are submitted for my Handicap.

For all of those that state they follow the rules to a T, how do you react and/or treat people in foursomes that don't? Do you look down at people or make people uncomfortable that take a "breakfast ball" or play all hazards like red stakes? Do you ever give people putts?

I ask this because not too long ago, I was the weekend hack that played golf once every month or two months. Golf was a rare luxury and a chance to get away from a stressful job and the demands of being a father to two young children. I didn't have the time, or the desire, to know every golf rule. I certainly didn't keep a handicap or play tournaments.

Honestly at that time, if some guy I've never played with was in my foursome and was a "Rule Nazi," didn't give or accept gimmies, or God forbid, told us to play stroke and distance when we discovered a ball was lost, I would never have wanted to play with that person again.

As I keep a handicap now, and enter and play poorly in the occasional tourney, I obviously am more strict about rules for myself. For social and business purposes, however, I could care less how others play and keep score unless money is on the line.

Drew Z said:

I do a practice round every friday with my Dad who doesn't golf much, we do a Mulligan per a 9.

However, every Sunday I play in my golf league and we count everything. If the ball is on a rock/root, I just hit it light and punch it out. These scores are submitted for my Handicap.

Click to expand...

Wow, we have a first! Someone who gets the picture. Rocks and roots are part of the game, and most of the time you can find a way to advance the ball and/or pitch it back into the fairway at least. How far you can advance it depends on the lie, but I can only recall one time when I really couldn't take a partial swing and put the ball in a better place than dropping it. Sure it costs me a stroke, but that's how the game is played, stroke by stroke.

I see the comment that this happens so infrequently that using a foot wedge won't change your index much, if at all. Quite true, but I see the reverse - that extra stroke won't change your index that much, but what it will do is give you a legitimate score to post or compare with others.

Dr RosenRosen said:

For all of those that state they follow the rules to a T, how do you react and/or treat people in foursomes that don't? Do you look down at people or make people uncomfortable that take a "breakfast ball" or play all hazards like red stakes? Do you ever give people putts?

Click to expand...

No I don't. Others can play as they wish, but they still need to know that what they shoot is not proper for handicap posting, nor is it comparable to others, because anyone who fudges the rules usually does more than just that. Without a common measuring scale (which the rules of golf provides), the scores become just numbers without meaning.

I would be sick if I took liberties on a couple of early holes, then shot what could have been a lifetime best, but not be able to count it because of those early foot wedges or whatever.

I don't give putts in stroke play, because it isn't up to me. If they want to give themselves those putts, that's fine, barring tournament or wager.

caeleric said:

what part of bifurcated system is confusing here? hypothetically, if the system suggests to play every white stake as a red stake, only now you cannot play the ball within the "white stake hazard" and instead you need to drop at the point the ball entered the "white stake hazard," that's the same reference point you would use for a red stake. we all know what to do when he plunk one in the water, so do the same thing for a ball hit ob.

if you're asking about a lost ball, i would agree with a suggestion that the current system is certainly the easiest, but i would disagree that the current system is the most time-efficient, and we all b1tch about pace of play. my hypothetical system would address this the same way, but may also rely heavily on local rules to account for different types of potential lost ball provisions. generally, my system would allow for 5 minutes of searching, then dropping at the point at which you last marked the ball, basically treating that point like a hazard stake. we usually know where the ball went bounding into the trees, or the native grass, or even regular rough when the ball sits down and the morning sun on dew makes it impossible to find your ball (man, that one can absolutely take me mentally out of a round).

and to your point that a bifurcated system doesn't account for the impact it has on a game where something is on the line, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and they're defined in a way that is reasonable and applicable, we're all good. or maybe i don't understand your point.

i don't mean to be argumentative; i'm just taking up the banner for us weekend warriors who never play tournaments and just want to play a great game in a reasonable amount of time without silly rules hindering those goals.

Click to expand...

My son plays PGA Junior League. I think their rules are brilliant and simple. Every hazard and/or lost ball is treated like a red stake. This speeds up the game and makes it more enjoyable for the kids. I think it would be a great solution for the "weekend warrior" as well.

wadesworld said:

It's not a matter of being a "dirty cheater." It's just interesting that many people play by all the rules - except this one. Why this rule gets the nearly universal "stamp of ignoring approval," I'm not sure. If it costs a stroke to get out of a hazard, it should cost a stroke to get away from roots/rocks.

Click to expand...

In a tournament atmosphere this is certainly how I play it (unplayable lie). In friendly matches, I let my bud take a free drop 6-inches away from where he hit his ball. I don't want to take his $5 because he got a bad 6-inch bounce. It so rarely comes up that I don't think its a big deal at all.

I do, but if I have nobody behind me and I hit a bad shot sometimes I re hit it just for practice sake. I don't count it and pick the ball up after playing my original.

I could benefit from the old foot wedge now and again but I have a horrible conscious when it comes to cheating.

Dr RosenRosen said:

For all of those that state they follow the rules to a T, how do you react and/or treat people in foursomes that don't? Do you look down at people or make people uncomfortable that take a "breakfast ball" or play all hazards like red stakes? Do you ever give people putts?

I ask this because not too long ago, I was the weekend hack that played golf once every month or two months. Golf was a rare luxury and a chance to get away from a stressful job and the demands of being a father to two young children. I didn't have the time, or the desire, to know every golf rule. I certainly didn't keep a handicap or play tournaments.

Honestly at that time, if some guy I've never played with was in my foursome and was a "Rule Nazi," didn't give or accept gimmies, or God forbid, told us to play stroke and distance when we discovered a ball was lost, I would never have wanted to play with that person again.

As I keep a handicap now, and enter and play poorly in the occasional tourney, I obviously am more strict about rules for myself. For social and business purposes, however, I could care less how others play and keep score unless money is on the line.

Click to expand...

I think plenty of people here can testify I have fun when I play, and don't give a rat's butt what you do when you play. Additionally, in my 40+ years of playing golf, never in my life have I seen an actual "rule Nazi" that would try to call a penalty on a stranger in a casual round. If you ask me what the proper ruling is, I'll give it to you, but if you want to go drop your ball on the lip of the cup, I don't care.

We always have to be careful when we get into these discussions, because they quickly become an "us vs them" debate. Just because someone has an interest in the rules doesn't mean they want every person they encounter to play golf strictly-by-the-book, nor does it mean the guy that rolls it over and says "drop one" is somehow an ultra-cool dude.

cpljohnst said:

In a tournament atmosphere this is certainly how I play it (unplayable lie). In friendly matches, I let my bud take a free drop 6-inches away from where he hit his ball. I don't want to take his $5 because he got a bad 6-inch bounce. It so rarely comes up that I don't think its a big deal at all.

Click to expand...

I've certainly done the same. Somewhere there's a line between a friendly match and a serious match, and that's where the rule gets applied by the letter. Where that line is depends on the dynamic. A match with a buddy? No. A match with your buddies' friend who you can't stand? Maybe. A club championship? Yes. A sectional qualifier? Absolutely.

caeleric said:

what part of bifurcated system is confusing here? hypothetically, if the system suggests to play every white stake as a red stake, only now you cannot play the ball within the "white stake hazard" and instead you need to drop at the point the ball entered the "white stake hazard," that's the same reference point you would use for a red stake. we all know what to do when he plunk one in the water, so do the same thing for a ball hit ob.

if you're asking about a lost ball, i would agree with a suggestion that the current system is certainly the easiest, but i would disagree that the current system is the most time-efficient, and we all b1tch about pace of play. my hypothetical system would address this the same way, but may also rely heavily on local rules to account for different types of potential lost ball provisions. generally, my system would allow for 5 minutes of searching, then dropping at the point at which you last marked the ball, basically treating that point like a hazard stake. we usually know where the ball went bounding into the trees, or the native grass, or even regular rough when the ball sits down and the morning sun on dew makes it impossible to find your ball (man, that one can absolutely take me mentally out of a round).

and to your point that a bifurcated system doesn't account for the impact it has on a game where something is on the line, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and they're defined in a way that is reasonable and applicable, we're all good. or maybe i don't understand your point.

i don't mean to be argumentative; i'm just taking up the banner for us weekend warriors who never play tournaments and just want to play a great game in a reasonable amount of time without silly rules hindering those goals.

Click to expand...

I would agree that OB could be implemented as you suggest. However, you would have to take some extraordinary conditions into account, and this again points out the fact that creating "relaxed rules" is not nearly as simple as one might think.

For example, one of the reasons OB is such a heavy penalty of stroke and distance is because of the potential for damage when hitting the ball off the property. If you take that away, and make it "just like a hazard" then having my ball go OB might not be such a bad thing. But for the sake of argument, let's say we implement the rule. For starters, it would need to be a 2 stroke penalty when dropping by where it went out, to make it as penal as stroke and distance. Now, what happens if you can't get to where the ball went out? Where do you drop then? Or what if the only area you can drop is in an unplayable location? Now you have to drop twice. That's certainly not going to speed up the game. Finally, what if the area you have to drop is in a hazard? What then? And what reference point do you use for your relief from the hazard?

The bigger point though is that OB/lost balls are not responsible for pace-of-play issues. People being slow and unprepared to play are responsible. People who search like the world is going to come to an end if they lose the Pro-V1 are still going to search like that even if allowed to drop where it went out. People who can't keep the ball online and lose 3 balls a hole are generally new to the game and don't follow the rules anyhow.

For those golfers who do want to follow the rules, if they just play a provisional any time they think there's a chance they won't find it, pace of play will not be affected and it will be an extremely rare occurrence that they lose one for which they did not hit a provisional.

But then we hit into really thick woods, and we're in a position where we can't hit out, unless we want the Kevin Na 14. So we hit our provisional, and put our second tee shot in the same place. Okay now we're hitting 4 with our new crap shot. We saw where it went, so we hit another one from the tee hitting 6 on the tee, and finally put it in the rough where at least we can play it. We score a legitimate 10 on the hole. Yet for reporting purposes we can only enter a 6 (for example).

Meanwhile we've held up play on the course so we could score our legit 10 when the handicap system won't let us report any more than a 6. Honestly, if you're not playing in a tournament or competitive round, you might as well just mark X(par + HC) after your first shot, drop a ball on the fairway and play out the hole and just call it a practice hole because the system won't let you report your actual score anyway. Stop fooling yourself.

If you want an accurate reflection of your handicap, use game golf which will include those 10s.

Personally, I try to play by the rules as much as possible. Am I good with a breakfast ball off the first tee? Yes. If you have a ball on a root or something that may cause you to damage your clubs then I am a fan of moving the ball ect. I also don't mind if someone takes the occasional mulligan or whatever...What does bother me is when someone takes multiple mulligans in a round then says they shot even par or something crazy when you know they wouldn't have sniffed 80 otherwise. To me though I think thats lame.

Thats me personally though...If someone always plays with a mulligan per 9 I don't think they should be berated on here though. If that is their own set of rules and they play that way each time and it helps them enjoy the game then cool. A lot of us play this game to get away from work or real life issues and want to enjoy it a certain way and thats cool. I know it sounds like I am playing both sides of the fence though but really the bottom line that bothers me is when someone claims they are a certain golfer (scratch) and you play with them and they get 6 or 7 mulligans in the round and giving themself every 6 footer they get on the greens ect but to each their own.

But if you're 90 years old and this is your last round I'll give you that 6 footer.

I wonder how many of us have often much toooo deliberately bent tree branches or other forms of growth in order take our swing. I must be guilty of this myself too. Or how about a practice swing to see if we can get he swing we need for the recovery shot and while doing so caused any breakage or anything to fall etc...anyone whos been in the trees/woods/bush, whatever enough times have probably all violated some rules on these occasions. But to be honest its not really something we probably honestly think about too hard as we just want to make the recovery and sort of honestly make the mistake. Though I do imagine some are aware of it and do it anyway. These things may indeed happen more than rare occasions if/when one has a round that's somewhat errant with ball striking.

as for the first tee breakfast ball? if one wanted a warm up practice shot and declared as such and didn't count it no matter good or bad, I could understand that. But to take one because it was a poor shot that you would have kept if it was good, that doesn't fly for me. I don't care if you do it but if I ever intended to do it, I would only do so knowing full well its a practice/warm up shot and my round hasn't started. Otherwise I would have to play whatever I hit.

rollin said:

as for the first tee breakfast ball? if one wanted a warm up practice shot and declared as such and didn't count it no matter good or bad, I could understand that. But to take one because it was a poor shot that you would have kept if it was good, that doesn't fly for me. I don't care if you do it but if I ever intended to do it, I would only do so knowing full well its a practice/warm up shot and my round hasn't started. Otherwise I would have to play whatever I hit.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of times I don't have time to warm up so I have no issue at all with a breakfast ball.

I count all shots but depending on the course and conditions I will roll the ball an inch or so to get a better lie.
Most of us don't play private clubs with manicured fairways or the $80-90 a round courses with decent fairways so in certain situations it's necessary to improve your lie off the dirt patch in the fairway.

e1iterate said:

There are a lot of times I don't have time to warm up so I have no issue at all with a breakfast ball.

Click to expand...

Oh I don't take any issue with anyone doing what they want. Just like I see many propping up almost any ball they hit. Some guys are so accustomed to doing it, they do it out of habbit even if the lie was already perfect. They just automatically move the ball with their cub as if some sort of preshot routine. I usualy don't know if they run a cap or not and i still don't care nor look down on it. I only take issue with some things for what it means to me to do it or not and for my own sake only. Have at it with whatever you or anyone wishes. The only thing I care about is if anyone I'm playing with is a good person who's nice and enjoyable to be around.

But I would ask, is your breakfast ball off the first tee only a breakfast ball if its a poor shot? or is it intended that you are not counting the shot no matter what? Basically that your taking a warmup shot first and then you'll start playing? again, what you do is your own business, but if you run a cap and have a habbit of re-taking "only the bad" first tee shots , does that sit well with you and your own honesty when posting?

rollin said:

Oh I don't take any issue with anyone doing what they want. Just like I see many propping up almost any ball they hit. Some guys are so accustomed to doing it, they do it out of habbit even if the lie was already perfect. They just automatically move the ball with their cub as if some sort of preshot routine. I usualy don't know if they run a cap or not and i still don't care nor look down on it. I only take issue with some things for what it means to me to do it or not and for my own sake only. Have at it with whatever you or anyone wishes. The only thing I care about is if anyone I'm playing with is a good person who's nice and enjoyable to be around.

But I would ask, is your breakfast ball off the first tee only a breakfast ball if its a poor shot? or is it intended that you are not counting the shot no matter what? Basically that your taking a warmup shot first and then you'll start playing? again, what you do is your own business, but if you run a cap and have a habbit of re-taking "only the bad" first tee shots , does that sit well with you and your own honesty when posting?

Click to expand...

I don't care about a handicap. I have a very stressful job, my wife has had two miscarriages recently and when I go play golf its to get away from the real world for a bit and relax. If I have no warm up and my playing partner and I both hit a bad shot we'll re tee sometimes. Now if he smokes one up the middle and I hit a poor tee shot then I just deal with it. I'm not out there chasing a handicap number like some people not am I playing for money so when I'm playing it's purely for fun unless it's a tournament. Does everyone in here really tap in the 6 inch putt and then feel bad about posting a number for your handicap? Do I agree with every rule out there? No. Do I abide by them if I'm playing a tournament? Yes. To me that's all that matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

e1iterate said:

I don't care about a handicap. I have a very stressful job, my wife has had two miscarriages recently and when I go play golf its to get away from the real world for a bit and relax. If I have no warm up and my playing partner and I both hit a bad shot we'll re tee sometimes. Now if he smokes one up the middle and I hit a poor tee shot then I just deal with it. I'm not out there chasing a handicap number like some people not am I playing for money so when I'm playing it's purely for fun unless it's a tournament. Does everyone in here really tap in the 6 inch putt and then feel bad about posting a number for your handicap? Do I agree with every rule out there? No. Do I abide by them if I'm playing a tournament? Yes. To me that's all that matters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

well, I could counter for sake of good debate but I wont and you answered my question
Fun and enjoyment is always a great thing. In the end its a big part of why I golf too.

rollin said:

well, I could counter for sake of good debate but I wont and you answered my question
Fun and enjoyment is always a great thing. In the end its a big part of why I golf too.

Click to expand...

You can post whatever you want lol...not going to bother me. I am just being honest. I cant tell you how many times I've heard in my two THP events where peoples handicaps are low and don't even come close to playing to their handicap. Last time my partner mentioned how he had been paired with single digit cappers and he shot better than them every time. Don't get me wrong either because I know just as much as anyone that you can have an off day and shoot a big score. I also work at Dicks on occasion and I see people come in all the time saying they are scratch golfers and then we go to the simulator and I think to myself there is no way this guy could beat me on the course and I can shoot anywhere from 80 to 90 on a given day. I guess what I am getting at is if there is some guy out there and he takes 1 mulligan during his round who cares but if you get a guy taking 6 footers and 6 or 7 mulligans then saying they shot 75 when really they would have done good to break 90. That's the stuff I guess that bothers me...that's messing with the handicap system drastically if they keep a cap.

rollin said:

... but if you run a cap and have a habbit of re-taking "only the bad" first tee shots , does that sit well with you and your own honesty when posting?

Click to expand...

Yes it sits just fine with me. I love how the dichotomy here is that if you play a breakfast ball and happen to post that round you're not an honest individual.

How could such a person live with themselves?

rollin said:

I wonder how many of us have often much toooo deliberately bent tree branches or other forms of growth in order take our swing. I must be guilty of this myself too. Or how about a practice swing to see if we can get he swing we need for the recovery shot and while doing so caused any breakage or anything to fall etc...anyone whos been in the trees/woods/bush, whatever enough times have probably all violated some rules on these occasions. But to be honest its not really something we probably honestly think about too hard as we just want to make the recovery and sort of honestly make the mistake. Though I do imagine some are aware of it and do it anyway. These things may indeed happen more than rare occasions if/when one has a round that's somewhat errant with ball striking.

Click to expand...

I may have done that before I had my first rule book, but since I've known that it was not allowed, I can state absolutely that I've never done it. I understand the rule and I am very careful to find the least intrusive entry into the condition, and to move or break nothing while setting up to play the stroke. It goes hand in hand with making certain that I drop in a correct place when taking relief, that I replace my ball as closely as humanly possible to the original spot on the green, and any other required procedures when playing.

I haven't known all of the rules for the entire time I've played golf (starting regularly in 1974), but since 1987 when I joined the USGA and got my first rule book, I have made every effort to play by the rules on every round that is played for handicap or competition, and that means 99% of my golf over that period. On those occasions when I lost a ball unexpectedly and hadn't played a provisional, I scored it as a hole not played, par plus any handicap strokes allowed, even if I finished out the hole after an improper drop, just to ensure that I didn't inflate my handicap by a rules breach.

Let me add that this is my own standard for my play. I will never attempt to impose it on anyone else outside of a competition unless they should ask for help on the rules.

Yes, every single shot. If the tournament or league allows rolling it, I will do that.

JM

Wow, quite a revealing thread. So we have over a hundred who count every shot when they play but then many in the thread who say yes they count every shot BUT
... I roll the ball
... take mulligans
... drop near where a ball was lost
... don't hit shots out of divots or near roots and rocks
... etc

Maybe the poll should have added the choice "I count every single shot AND follow the Rules of Golf"? :wink:

deuce said:

Yes it sits just fine with me. I love how the dichotomy here is that if you play a breakfast ball and happen to post that round you're not an honest individual.

How could such a person live with themselves?

Click to expand...

That's not what I said nor implied, nor did I judge anyones integrity as a person here. Was just a question based on how I would feel towards myself and my own game and wanted to know if it bothered him at all in the same way at all. I too have done a no-no on occasion with different things for different reasons that others may not agree with and am not perfect either. None of my intent was ever to label or judge ones integrity as a person. As said, the only thing important to me is if one is enjoyable to be playing along side of.

We cant take our written text conversations personally because without face to face in person conversing we can often lose the intended atmosphere of the conversations. Just one of the big flaws with written communication vs face to face. All we can do is assume intent due to the way we read the words. Sometimes they are exactly how it sounds but also many times its different from what the senders intent was. I assure you (in my case here) there was never intent to judge ones integrity as a person). After all its only golf, for most its a recreation, luxury and far from a necessity.