Off Course is back this week with a fantastic show including discussing some polarizing topics including Jack Nicklaus being full of it and is golf etiquette dead. Hosted by Dan Edwards and Rob Miller, each Friday the hosts give you a deep look into the world of golf and equipment in a way unlike any other podcast has done before.
Episode 14 is here and Rob and Dan discuss the following topics.
Jack is Full of It
Golf Etiquette Being Dead
Is Distance a Skill?
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I have a pretty decent resume of check boxes on the golf course, but I’m not sure I’ve ever been called a "freakishly superior athlete" hahaha
I’ll pass that on to my Dad tomorrow as we hit our drives on #1. I’m sure he won’t fall over in laughter
Probably because he knows no tour player in their right mind would play that product, and anyone actually interested in it is clearly not in the discussion for golf being ‘too long’ hahahaha
That being said, the carry king last year was Cameron Champ at 311. Next longest was Trey Mullinax at 304.
Ryan Armour last year averaged 286.4 on the fly. This week, he’s averaging on the measured holes 307. Looking back at just his round today, I’m seeing a pretty solid amount of 300+ yard drives. 17th hole alone, he hit it 388. But yes, let’s roll back the ball… Because that’s the problem. ????
PGA tour numbers are trash. Who cares what final totals are?
Phil hit an iron that finished 333. He doesn’t hit an iron 333. The fairway does.
I’ll play a bit of devil’s advocate, because it’s just fun. The PGA Tour is still an entertainment industry, so to speak. The USGA and R&A are the ones clutching their pearls at the distances, not the PGA Tour. Do you think the tour cares about the distance? Or do they just help egg it on so that being are wow’ed by how long these guys are vs the average amateur?
No, not at all.
They are not guarding the player distance, they are guarding bad shots. If they gave even half a crap about distance, the fairways would be soft and the greens would be like parking lots.
I completely agree. Phil doesn’t hit irons 3 bills. It’s straight up course setup letting that happen. But my point is, who friggin cares? I don’t care if they’re hitting it 400 yards. They still have to get it in the hole in less strokes than the next guy. It’s still a putting contest, not a long drive contest.
Neither are amateurs in the north. Maybe in Canada where it is winter/frozen for 8 months.
Even a 44 yr old has to bring it on tour. Once the averages for the whole year come in, then start the roll back everything brigade. It’s rare that year over year nets large gains, and these guys have been eating and lifting. Its to be expected. And its July. Range balls are bouncing off the ground at my course its so hard right now. July golf. Its a different game, and its fun while it lasts.
And Ryan Palmer also hit one 388 on the 17th today. That carried 279 yards. 109 on the ground.
Has to be the equipment causing that. Has to.
No seriously. Jack hates golfers? We’re still mad about the ball rolling? What about this Els quote which is a nice blend or all viewpoints to tick everyone off?
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You offer a huge amount of content and I love 99% of it. I would not have listened to this solely based on the tease, headline or whatever you call it.I still probably won’t spend time listening but still enjoy that other 99%
I don’t know how you refrained from saying something. I’d a said something, very politely once. If I didn’t speak up it would bother me for several holes.
When I saw the title of this one, I’ll admit that I rolled my eyes and thought, "here we go again". Is Jack full of it? Yes and no. He isn’t wrong that you cant just keep making courses longer and longer to combat more distance from tour pros but I also don’t think that I agree with him that rolling the ball back is the answer.
I struggle with this topic because I compare golf to baseball. Can you imagine if they let MLB players use aluminum bats and baseball turned into a home run derby? People would moan about how they were ruining the game and how baseball was so much more pure back in the good ole days when players used wood bats.
In some ways, that’s what happened with golf. Modern golf equipment is so amazing that you can be a pretty average golfer and still shoot some amazing scores. I switch back and forth between modern clubs and a vintage set of persimmon woods and blades and the difference is pretty stark. Part of it is that modern balls simply don’t spin enough for persimmon woods but even then, I cant be so much more sloppy with my modern clubs and just swing as hard as I want and still hit some great shots even when I don’t hit the center of the face. I cant do that with my vintage set.
I think that the real question is if you admit that distance on tour is a problem, how do you fix it? I don’t think that anyone wants bifurcation.
If I were in charge of the USGA, I think that Id probably roll the ball back and ban urethane covers, multi layer balls and solid core balls to take it back to the wound ball days where the ball spins more off the driver and less off the wedges. If you look at urethane and how bad it is for the enviornment, maybe its time for golf to look at something else anyways. Just ask Pebble Beach about the problems they have with that.
Beyond that, Id also limit driver head size to 190cc. It would prevent many from swinging out of their shoes like they do now. Yes, many players now hit their 3-wood almost as far as they do their driver but that, along with the ball change would fix it.
Beyond that, I dont love the title, asking if Jack is, "full of it". Jack deserves more respect than that, even if you dont agree with him.
Meh.. It wasn’t my home course – I respect the idea that we all come from different circumstances and I would assume they just were not familiar.
…although it did bother the hell out of me lmao
The tour doesn’t need to change anything, outside of the one thing I would fully support (less than 430cc driver heads).
– Make golf courses more challenging where cutting corners has ZERO trouble.
– Stop with the trampoline fairways.
– Respect that the best in the world are incredible and deserve their success if they can control their distance.
Also, just because Jack won a lot of tournaments doesn’t mean he can’t be full of it. You’re absolutely welcome to put him on a pedestal, but I have no interest. The more he talks about it, the more I will as well.
It’s got nothing to do with putting people on pedestals and everything to do with respect. Jack deserves a little common courtesy, just as you do.
I think that part of the problem when you talk about leaving things as they are and letting the best be the best is that you forget about the evolution of equipment and how its impossible to compare different era of golf because the equipment is so different. I think that it makes it really difficult to say who the goat is.
I also dont think that going to 430cc drivers is going to do a thing because look how they hit their 3-woods. If they can bomb their 3-wood 350, do you really think a 430cc driver is going to change a thing? Spoiler: it won’t.
In the end, I actually dont think that anything will be done because no one can agree whether or not distance is a problem and even if they did, theres really no good way to solve it. The horse is kind of out of the barn on that one and they are about 50 years too late on capping technology.
I do certainly like being an average Joe who works for a living, never practices, doesn’t work out, is fat, 40 years old but who can still hit it 250 with my driver fairly easily. If we still had persimmon heads with steel shafts, I’d struggle to hit it more than 200 yards. Lol
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You don’t think going from 460 to 430 does anything?
Okay. Agree to disagree.
What effect do you think it would have?
Head size gets smaller, margin of error gets smaller.
I genuinely don’t care how much it is, there’s a degree of forgiveness that is reduced by shrinking the head size. I’m not the guy who needs to take change to the extreme. Go with 430 for now. If it’s not sufficient, take it to 410 or 400. Go to where it needs to be.
Ohio can be pretty volatile this time of year with precipitation, so it wouldn’t surprise me if that year was wet up there leading up to the event.
Either way, the course is WILDLY different with soft vs firm fairways.
But distance though? That’s what your referring to? Distance forgiveness? Or distance and accuracy? 430 is about a 6% reduction in volume, for those not already playing less than 460. While I think there’s probably a point where reduced size starts to affect outcomes in a meaningful way, I too think it is a long way from a 20-30 CC reduction. More than people are going to be okay with walking it back imo.
Reduce the forgiveness, force the guys to swing with greater control.
Rahm’s swing is so short, there is very little to go wrong with it. His back? Hmmm…
Kinda sad to see JDay’s back so bad. Modern game. They did this to him.
I’m still concerned about the unstated narrative in that either its time to:
A: roll some aspects of the game back once again, and choose winners and losers in the equipment game in doing so.
B: the supposition that golf courses under "x" number of yards are "obsolete."
So many developers wanna bulldoze golf courses, and this plays right into that scenario. The average joe golfer ends up paying.
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Jack was leaving in the morning and he wanted to see 6 holes for approval before he left.
Jason Day had an awesome, modern swing. It definitely destroyed his back.
this week we’ll be discussing where to buy joggers with pleats..
aka @golfunfiltered will be on.
why is there so much hate in your heart
Joggers with pleats would be nice but only if you pull putter from ~80 yards.
it is ALL love for you.
…and sarcasm. LOTS of sarcasm.
Nicklaus may be one of the worst designers ever? Is it all that good to begin with if it needs to be ripped up every year?
He certainly doesn’t treat his courses with much reverence.
I remember watching JDay on the Nationwide tour. You could tell he was gonna be damn good. But that David Duval-like fall from grace once again, with too much distance chasing. The Tour is necessitating being built like a linebacker and it stinks.
You can argue as the game evolves, courses need to as well.
Through the Memorial, PGA Driving distance Leaders:
2000- John Daly 301.4 (138 drives measured)
2001- Daly @ 306.7
2002- Daly @ 306.8; Tim Herron #7 @ 293.2
2003- Hank Kuehne (remember him and his eventual bad back?) @ 321 (140 measured drives)
Fast forward…
2020- Bryson @ 323.8 (88 drives measured in this shortened season)
The game has not changed all that much. 2003 seemed to be a big jump. Pretty steady since. No need to dig up courses and nonsense. There are always players that enjoy the gift of natural distance, and some work to get there. We are seeing a lot of players being shredded earlier in their careers with swinging so hard.
Sad to see from Jack. Why?
To be fair, if he had the same views now as he had then, he would have dialed back the ball and not overpowered golf courses.
Jack isn’t a player anymore. His playing opinion with regards to the 2020 players doesn’t mean a thing to me, because he’s not playing these setups. If he were, he might realize the tour course setup is what is adding to these absurd distances.
Now Jack the course designer is an interesting ploy. He can throw his playing career status on it, and course committees will listen to him, because hey, Jack Nicklaus said so. Cool. How much is Jack charging for these redesigns, and lengthening? How much would his company charge to redesign all of his designs, if the ball was rolled back 10-20%? I bet that would keep his company pretty busy for a while…. ?
You shouldn’t watch the Masters anymore. They’ve done some things since ’97.
comparing Muirfield to Augusta… ????
USGA, PGA Tour can go enjoy their little elitist tea party together. Leave my courses and equipment out of this crapola once again.
The average age of course and distance I play and tees I choose have nothing to do with this sanctioning clownshow.
You’re right. Muirfield was played 2 weeks.
And the real estate side of things, goes against what everybody has been preaching that this is bifurcation time.
Because if it is, the line needs to be drawn. If it isn’t, you are literally penalizing 20+ million golfers because a few hundred hit it too far.
The average driving distance according to the USGA was under 220 last I checked. Id love to hear the real estate argument about course design for those that hit it too short too.
It was ‘played’ one week.
It was destroyed the following week, guys just happened to be golfing on it at the time.
on these courses that don’t even bother to put out the back tee blocks 350 days of the year lol
My sympathy cup poureth overeth
In my mind, I separate Jack the golfer from Jack the course designer and general curmudgeon.