Off Course: Shaft Flex and Club Building

Dan E. August 27, 2021 98 Comments

Off Course is back this week with a fantastic show. Hosted by Dan Edwards each Friday he gives you a deep look into the world of golf and equipment in a way unlike any other podcast has done before. Today Dan welcomes Jason Horodezky from Kinetixx Shafts to the show to talk Kinetixx Shaft Flex and an array of topics surrounding golf shafts in general.

It wouldn’t be Off Course without some tangents, but Jason joins the show to discuss Kinetixx, provide a shaft boot camp of knowledge and so much more. This show has a lot going on and it is an episode you will not want to miss as equipment Jason Horodezky goes Off Course.

Jason Horodezky from Kinetixx Shaft flex

Episode 71 is here and Dan and Jason Horodezky discuss the following topics.

Long Drive
Kinetixx Golf Shaft Flex
Club Building Mistakes
And so much more

You can listen to the show right here, Apple Podcasts or of anywhere you do your listening and downloading from. Search for the Hackers Paradise and make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. After listening, come back over and drop us a note below on what you agree and/or disagree with from the episode.

THPGolf · Off Course: Kinetixx Shaft Flex and Club Building

Go to discussion...

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Spotify | RSS

Dan E. August 27, 2021

Dan E.

View More Posts

Dan Edwards is a THP staff writer that currently resides in southern Ohio. He is a low index player that has a long-held love for taking in and sharing knowledge about golf equipment.

98 Comments

JB says:

August 27, 2021 at 7:44 pm

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069086, member: 66797″]
So if I dont like the shaft in Titleist head(adaptor) and tipping is out; the only two options are to find someone to buy
at .`10 on the dollar or scrap it?
[/QUOTE]
My response was to the quoted part about a stiffer tip being inherently better.

and no.
Canadan says:

August 27, 2021 at 7:47 pm

[QUOTE=”baylrballa, post: 10069082, member: 52381″]
Heard the same thing. Curious more of the details of that statement at it is pretty scary for those garage tinkerers.

Taking the tip off twice using a heat gun and spring puller, the shaft was warm but able to be handled, if that’s enough to damage a shaft, that’s not good.
[/QUOTE]
That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design… And as much as we want to talk about steel being ultimately the most durable option, I’ve seen plenty of steel iron shafts pulled to show a bend right where the shaft meets the head due to wear and tear.
Canadan says:

August 27, 2021 at 7:49 pm

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069073, member: 66797″]
If this is true, it is a serious disadvantage of the shaft. I would cut the tip and reinstall in the adaptor.
Stiffer tip can only make it a better performing shaft?.
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t this sort of depend on what you’re hoping to achieve?

A tip that is too stiff for a player eliminates what value there is in the bend profile, no?
Arlo says:

August 27, 2021 at 8:10 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10069094, member: 2320″]
Doesn’t this sort of depend on what you’re hoping to achieve?

A tip that is too stiff for a player eliminates what value there is in the bend profile, no?
[/QUOTE]
I would tip and try it before scrapping a $300 shaft.
Knowing now that the mfg is not going to stand behind the shaft if adaptor is removed and changed, I would not buy this shaft.
Arlo says:

August 27, 2021 at 8:17 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10069094, member: 2320″]
Doesn’t this sort of depend on what you’re hoping to achieve?

A tip that is too stiff for a player eliminates what value there is in the bend profile, no?
[/QUOTE]
Due to a fire on my work bench, the tip on a $260 butt trim only, composite shaft was melted and
I tipped it more than 2 inches, otherwise it was toast. It became my favorite hybrid shaft.
Zero droop, zero kick, zero torque. ..mid bend like many K… shafts
Scooby45 says:

August 27, 2021 at 8:40 pm

So much info! I tend to turn of my engineering mind when I play golf but this one has me thinking a lot. Loved it!

And yes, I love finish options for clubs. I like getting picky with it.
JB says:

August 28, 2021 at 5:14 am

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069209, member: 66797″]
pound for pound kevlar/composite/graphite is stronger than steel

But as far as durability steel is the winner.
[URL]https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/ASTM-A36-SS400-S275-Structural-Carbon-Steel/Graphite[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
I’m curious if you listened to the podcast because that was said and Jason was specific about what breaks down in all composite shafts.
Parrot says:

August 28, 2021 at 6:35 am

[QUOTE=”JB, post: 10069087, member: 3″]
What’s interesting is it’s virtually the same statement that Oly made to [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER] with LA Golf, Ping and Aldila/Mitsubishi. It doesn’t take much heat to breakdown a shaft and FWIW I literally changed tips on a Kinetixx today and checked a few things like torque and nothing changed. I just use as little heat as possible on all shafts
[/QUOTE]

Which club did you switch to?
JB says:

August 28, 2021 at 6:42 am

[QUOTE=”Parrot, post: 10069340, member: 48815″]
Which club did you switch to?
[/QUOTE]
It was an iron shaft.

Edit: realized I did two. One iron and one adapter. Adapter moved to tour Edge 721.
Arlo says:

August 28, 2021 at 8:07 am

[QUOTE=”JB, post: 10069314, member: 3″]
I’m curious if you listened to the podcast because that was said and Jason was specific about what breaks down in all composite shafts.
[/QUOTE]
My reply was in response to this post:

That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design
Jman says:

August 28, 2021 at 8:15 am

Really enjoyed this one on the course yesterday, but it’s always a pleasure to listen to Jason, dude is just crazy smart, and better yet, passionate.

Lots to digest in this one. The building aspect is interesting, and I’ve long agreed with the tip weight take as someone who has gone down that rabbit hole before.
Chef23 says:

August 28, 2021 at 9:21 am

[QUOTE=”Parrot, post: 10068626, member: 48815″]
The statement that the shafts don’t like repurposing begins at 10:50 in. Because most of the resin is baked out of the shaft during manufacture/curing, the heat actually cooks fibers not the epoxy.

I assume repurposing in this instance is changing out one adapter for another or from club head to club head.

Jason mentions very few club builders are able to do this.

Am I misunderstanding this? And that’s quite possible. Anyone have other thoughts on this? I just picked up a Velocity from a THPer. Sometime when I can start hitting balls again, we’ll find out how the shaft holds up.
[/QUOTE]

I took it to mean that very few club builders were capable of applying the minimum amount of hear to pull the shaft and not damage it. Maybe very precise application with a torch or micro torch would be the way to go.
Arlo says:

August 28, 2021 at 9:27 am

[QUOTE=”Jman, post: 10069407, member: 1579″]
Really enjoyed this one on the course yesterday, but it’s always a pleasure to listen to Jason, dude is just crazy smart, and better yet, passionate.

Lots to digest in this one. The building aspect is interesting, and I’ve long agreed with the tip weight take as someone who has gone down that rabbit hole before.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=”Chef23, post: 10069472, member: 48542″]
I took it to mean that very few club builders were capable of applying the minimum amount of hear to pull the shaft and not damage it. Maybe very precise application with a torch or micro torch would be the way to go.
[/QUOTE]
However the words are interpreted, as a manufacturer of a product, understand the company is off the hook if a consumer switches from one adaptor to another or one shaft to another, using heat in the removal process.
Jman says:

August 28, 2021 at 9:29 am

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069481, member: 66797″]
However the words are interpreted, as a manufacturer of a product, understand the company is off the hook if a consumer switches from one adaptor to another or one shaft to another, using heat in the removal process.
[/QUOTE]
Wait, what are you going on about now?
JB says:

August 28, 2021 at 9:50 am

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069402, member: 66797″]
My reply was in response to this post:

That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design
[/QUOTE]
That is why I asked if you had listened to the podcast in the first post. ?
Arlo says:

August 28, 2021 at 10:01 am

[QUOTE=”JB, post: 10069503, member: 3″]
That is why I asked if you had listened to the podcast in the first post. ?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe I misinterpreted this comment:

“That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design”

Sounds that it is saying graphite(composites) have technically more durable properties than steel shafts. If that was not the intention, then lets forget it.
kiwichris says:

August 28, 2021 at 11:33 am

Umm, bombshell doesn’t quite cover this! Awesome podcast & finally someone saying swingweight is not the thing everyone thinks.
templeton80 says:

August 28, 2021 at 11:43 am

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069514, member: 66797″]
Maybe I misinterpreted this comment:

“That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design”

Sounds that it is saying graphite(composites) have technically more durable properties than steel shafts. If that was not the intention, then lets forget it.
[/QUOTE]

they way I look at graphite is that once it is a finished product it is extremely strong and durable. But, due to the construction that durability can be pretty easily manipulated. Especially by heat.

it’s like Superman. The most overpowered superhero ever. But a dumb green rock is his weakness.
Arlo says:

August 28, 2021 at 11:47 am

[QUOTE=”templeton80, post: 10069582, member: 53139″]
they way I look at graphite is that once it is a finished product it is extremely strong and durable. But, due to the construction that durability can be pretty easily manipulated. Especially by heat.

it’s like Superman. The most overpowered superhero every. But a dumb green rock is his weakness.
[/QUOTE]
Cant touch the Man of Steel, for durability. LOL
JB says:

August 28, 2021 at 12:35 pm

[QUOTE=”Arlo, post: 10069514, member: 66797″]
Maybe I misinterpreted this comment:

“That is kind of the weird place with graphite though, right? Just because some of them have technically more durable properties doesn’t mean that heat doesn’t alter their design”

Sounds that it is saying graphite(composites) have technically more durable properties than steel shafts. If that was not the intention, then lets forget it.
[/QUOTE]
That isn’t what I was saying, but it’s why I was asking if you listened. Because it discusses heat and construction with the shaft designer…
Arlo says:

August 28, 2021 at 12:44 pm

[QUOTE=”JB, post: 10069611, member: 3″]
That isn’t what I was saying, but it’s why I was asking if you listened. Because it discusses heat and construction with the shaft designer…
[/QUOTE]
My misunderstanding. My apology.
Canadan says:

August 28, 2021 at 3:12 pm

[QUOTE=”templeton80, post: 10069582, member: 53139″]
they way I look at graphite is that once it is a finished product it is extremely strong and durable. But, due to the construction that durability can be pretty easily manipulated. Especially by heat.
[/QUOTE]
It’s pretty funny how counter that is to steel, which has better bend potential at the tip (not the good kind) while in play.

Also, speaking about durability, it’s insane to think that Kinetixx hasn’t had a shaft fail in competition.
templeton80 says:

August 28, 2021 at 3:14 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10069808, member: 2320″]
It’s pretty funny how counter that is to steel, which has better bend potential at the tip (not the good kind) while in play.

Also, speaking about durability, it’s insane to think that Kinetixx hasn’t had a shaft fail in competition.
[/QUOTE]
Specifically long drive comp. those guys go hard..
formula8 says:

August 29, 2021 at 5:53 pm

Just listened to this one today and really enjoyed it, as it touched on a few things I had been pondering lately. I must admit, I read some of the comments here about how smart Jason was prior to listening to the episode and rolled my eyes a bit. Post podcast consumption, holy crap this guy is smart!

The only point of contention I have, and maybe I’m just not smart enough to get it, is regarding using too much epoxy. There is only a finite amount of epoxy that can physically fit in the hosel bore with the shaft installed. Let’s call it 1 ml for the sake of discussion. If you use 10 ml of epoxy and 9 ml leaks out, you still have the same amount of epoxy bonding the shaft to the head.
Chef23 says:

August 29, 2021 at 6:00 pm

[QUOTE=”formula8, post: 10071171, member: 41435″]
Just listened to this one today and really enjoyed it, as it touched on a few things I had been pondering lately. I must admit, I read some of the comments here about how smart Jason was prior to listening to the episode and rolled my eyes a bit. Post podcast consumption, holy crap this guy is smart!

The only point of contention I have, and maybe I’m just not smart enough to get it, is regarding using too much epoxy. There is only a finite amount of epoxy that can physically fit in the hosel bore with the shaft installed. Let’s call it 1 ml for the sake of discussion. If you use 10 ml of epoxy and 9 ml leaks out, you still have the same amount of epoxy bonding the shaft to the head.
[/QUOTE]

I think they don’t want a lot of excess expoxy feeding up into the tip of the shaft. If you can avoid that I can’t see an issue either.
Canadan says:

August 29, 2021 at 6:30 pm

[QUOTE=”Chef23, post: 10071193, member: 48542″]
I think they don’t want a lot of excess expoxy feeding up into the tip of the shaft. If you can avoid that I can’t see an issue either.
[/QUOTE]
It’s a weird thing, but it’s absolutely real.

I’ve used standard set epoxy and had it creep every bit of 10 inches down the shaft, only to be a MASSIVE pain when it broke free (and rattled) and I had to disassemble to get what I thought was a broken shaft back to normal haha
Canadan says:

August 29, 2021 at 6:31 pm

[QUOTE=”formula8, post: 10071171, member: 41435″]
Just listened to this one today and really enjoyed it, as it touched on a few things I had been pondering lately. I must admit, I read some of the comments here about how smart Jason was prior to listening to the episode and rolled my eyes a bit. Post podcast consumption, holy crap this guy is smart!
[/QUOTE]
yeah, that’s the hard part. you don’t want to oversell a perspective, but I really think Jason has earned that label, at least at my table.
Golfers Anonymous says:

August 29, 2021 at 6:36 pm

[QUOTE=”formula8, post: 10071171, member: 41435″]
Just listened to this one today and really enjoyed it, as it touched on a few things I had been pondering lately. I must admit, I read some of the comments here about how smart Jason was prior to listening to the episode and rolled my eyes a bit. Post podcast consumption, holy crap this guy is smart!

The only point of contention I have, and maybe I’m just not smart enough to get it, is regarding using too much epoxy. There is only a finite amount of epoxy that can physically fit in the hosel bore with the shaft installed. Let’s call it 1 ml for the sake of discussion. If you use 10 ml of epoxy and 9 ml leaks out, you still have the same amount of epoxy bonding the shaft to the head.
[/QUOTE]
Epoxy is much more rigid and brittle than the graphite or composite shafts. If it flows into the tip think of it as a spike going in the tip if the spike makes it past the hosel opening you have a shear point to break against with the stress of loading the shaft.
formula8 says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:35 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10071306, member: 2320″]
It’s a weird thing, but it’s absolutely real.

I’ve used standard set epoxy and had it creep every bit of 10 inches down the shaft, only to be a MASSIVE pain when it broke free (and rattled) and I had to disassemble to get what I thought was a broken shaft back to normal haha
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=”Golfers Anonymous, post: 10071323, member: 59233″]
Epoxy is much more rigid and brittle than the graphite or composite shafts. If it flows into the tip think of it as a spike going in the tip if the spike makes it past the hosel opening you have a shear point to break against with the stress of loading the shaft.
[/QUOTE]

I get these points and now see why it would be an issue, but can’t figure out how epoxy is getting that far into the shaft. It’s also not something I had really considered before.
Canadan says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:39 pm

[QUOTE=”formula8, post: 10071422, member: 41435″]
I get these points and now see why it would be an issue, but can’t figure out how epoxy is getting that far into the shaft. It’s also not something I had really considered before.
[/QUOTE]
A couple ways, some more extreme than others..

1- You fill the entire head/adapter with epoxy, as well as put it on the shaft, then shove it on… It’s going to go through into the shaft.
2- You build out a couple adapters on shafts and let them dry adapter up.
Golfers Anonymous says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:40 pm

[QUOTE=”formula8, post: 10071422, member: 41435″]
I get these points and now see why it would be an issue, but can’t figure out how epoxy is getting that far into the shaft. It’s also not something I had really considered before.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on the size of the opening in the tip as well as the amount of epoxy, poor practices by amateur and professional builders lead to early failures in the shafts I recently swapped tips in a shaft and had to remove 1 3/4” of epoxy on the interior of the shaft due to a poor build. If all the epoxy is added to the hosel but none to the shaft then the shaft is inserted it will travel the path of least resistance which is typically the opening of the shaft tip.
[ATTACH type=”full”]9025091[/ATTACH]
Doubleb21 says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:45 pm

Just got done listening and what a great show! It is really cool to hear the details on the shaft i am testing right now! Will have to listen again as there is a TON of detail in there. Nice job [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER]
Canadan says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:47 pm

Thanks so much for keeping this thread going through the weekend and listening, guys! It means the world to me!
-CRW- says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:47 pm

Sounds like Golf Pride needs to make a Z-Grip Cord Plus4.
Chef23 says:

August 29, 2021 at 7:49 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10071306, member: 2320″]
It’s a weird thing, but it’s absolutely real.

I’ve used standard set epoxy and had it creep every bit of 10 inches down the shaft, only to be a MASSIVE pain when it broke free (and rattled) and I had to disassemble to get what I thought was a broken shaft back to normal haha
[/QUOTE]

I always try to not have the epoxy not get into the bottom of the shaft so that might not happen. I agree there is nothing worse than having epoxy rattling around in the shaft.
formula8 says:

August 29, 2021 at 8:13 pm

[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 10071436, member: 2320″]
A couple ways, some more extreme than others..

1- You fill the entire head/adapter with epoxy, as well as put it on the shaft, then shove it on… It’s going to go through into the shaft.
2- You build out a couple adapters on shafts and let them dry adapter up.
[/QUOTE]

Makes sense. Option 1 crossed my mind but that seemed pretty crazy. Hadn’t even considered option 2 or it’s possible consequences. Luckily I’ve never made this mistake but at least I’m now aware of it.
cbaker2882 says:

August 30, 2021 at 12:10 am

I’d be interested in what high grade epoxy is in this case- like what the actual product is so I can look into it haha.
cbaker2882 says:

August 30, 2021 at 12:18 am

Also, was he saying tip weights even in iron shafts are altering the way the shaft will play?
Jman says:

August 30, 2021 at 6:41 am

[QUOTE=”cbaker2882, post: 10071695, member: 25261″]
I’d be interested in what high grade epoxy is in this case- like what the actual product is so I can look into it haha.
[/QUOTE]
Brampton is top of the line when it comes to club epoxy. Worth every cent.
Jman says:

August 30, 2021 at 6:42 am

[QUOTE=”cbaker2882, post: 10071696, member: 25261″]
Also, was he saying tip weights even in iron shafts are altering the way the shaft will play?
[/QUOTE]
Speaking more to graphite and the effects on what it does to the tip, so in graphite iron shafts, yes.
JB says:

August 30, 2021 at 6:54 am

[QUOTE=”Jman, post: 10071808, member: 1579″]
Brampton is top of the line when it comes to club epoxy. Worth every cent.
[/QUOTE]
I would say 3m personally (which I think Jason mentioned) but with the affordable brands Brampton is solid.
cbaker2882 says:

August 30, 2021 at 8:52 am

[QUOTE=”Jman, post: 10071808, member: 1579″]
Brampton is top of the line when it comes to club epoxy. Worth every cent.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 10071832, member: 3″]
I would say 3m personally (which I think Jason mentioned) but with the affordable brands Brampton is solid.
[/QUOTE]

Where would one buy these, and what makes them better? Just curious as I’ve never had an issue with the golfworks epoxy on any build I’ve done
JB says:

August 30, 2021 at 8:58 am

[QUOTE=”cbaker2882, post: 10072057, member: 25261″]
Where would one buy these, and what makes them better? Just curious as I’ve never had an issue with the golfworks epoxy on any build I’ve done
[/QUOTE]
I believe Bramton can be had on Amazon, but I get mine from Mitchell Golf, which is branded as Mitchell.
3M can be had from many places including Mitchell Golf. Its pricier but absolutely awesome and so little has to be used. The strength and durability is why many of the tour vans use it.
Fathead1911 says:

August 30, 2021 at 9:09 am

[QUOTE=”cbaker2882, post: 10072057, member: 25261″]
Where would one buy these, and what makes them better? Just curious as I’ve never had an issue with the golfworks epoxy on any build I’ve done
[/QUOTE]

I’ve never had an issue with Golfworks personally but have heard enough stories that I’ve decided to use 3M going forward.

I just ordered my Kinetixx Velocity so it will be the first application of the 3M.
captaincaution says:

August 30, 2021 at 1:53 pm

I finally got around to listening to this one.

Jason sounds like a smart guy. Maybe I have to go back and listen to the previous episode with him, but it was a lot of science sounding jargon which lead this engineer to rewind and re-listen to try to make sense of what was going on. The website is equally full of a lot of confusing clutter.

I don’t doubt that the shafts perform, look at the long drive guys, but there are a lot of claims going on, and I would love to see some data.

I would love Jason’s take on shaft puring, something that Club Champion does for all graphite shafts (for free!) since the Kinetixx shafts are truly spineless and concentric.
MSGOLF says:

August 31, 2021 at 12:15 pm

To much epoxy can definitely cause issues as others have pointed out. I do think the tungsten powder trick has limits and from time to time tip weights can’t be avoided. I’ve seen irons from major brands be as much as 8 grams off their target weight. Try getting that much tungsten in your epoxy at a workable consistency. Talk about to much epoxy !! Adding a ton of weight to achieve a specific non traditional swing weight in an entire set….not such a good idea but adding 6-8 grams to get an iron head to its INTENDED weight is sometimes unavoidable.
Ludin says:

September 1, 2021 at 2:06 pm

Another great podcast! Little late listening this week but I got there.

Toulon Concept 59 Daytona Beach: Rethinking Alignment

Are Your Golf Clubs Too Heavy? – Splitting Fairways Episode 14

Johnnie-O Fusion: Why it Became a THP Forum Favorite

2026 Toulon Putters Collection – THP Member Wrap Up

Toulon Concept 59 Daytona Beach: Rethinking Alignment

Are Your Golf Clubs Too Heavy? – Splitting Fairways Episode 14

Johnnie-O Fusion: Why it Became a THP Forum Favorite

2026 Toulon Putters Collection – THP Member Wrap Up

Off Course: Shaft Flex and Club Building