As Bryson and others continue to hit it further and further, defending champion of the ZOZO Championship had some thoughts. Here is Tiger Woods on the distance debate.
“Distance has always been an advantage. Now that we have the tools, that being the launch monitor, the fitting of the golf clubs, the adjustability. I think all that plays into the fact that you’re able to maximize the capabilities of a driver. There’s no reason why you can’t pick up more yardage and guys have done that”, Woods said.
Always one of the longest on tour, and during his dominance, courses were looking at ways to “Tiger Proof”.
“It’s about what do we do going forward and how soon can they do it? You’re not going to stop the guys who are there right now. Guys are figuring out how to carry the ball 320-plus yards, and it’s not just a few of them.”
The general conversation being had is about rolling back some form of equipment either universally to all or specific to the tour professionals…Meaning Bifurcation of the rule book.
“I just don’t see how they can roll everything back. I would like to be able to see that, as far as our game, but then we go back down the road of what do you bifurcate, at what level?”
Tiger is correct at the general idea of rolling back a form of equipment is easier in theory than execution. For all of the talk about Bryson DeChambeau fantastic win at the 2020 US Open, it isn’t that far off from what Rory McIlroy did nearly 10 years ago at the 2011 US Open in his victory. Both were 7th in driving distance and both were 26th in driving accuracy. The yards went up a little bit, but there was virtually no outrage at that time.
Do you agree with Tiger Woods? What do you think the next step should be and will be?
exact same thing i was thinking of, reminds me of guns.
thats why one of my comments was, at some point do people just say i dont want to play anymore..
I think something else to look at is coaching. Look at what Gankas gets out of his students. He’s helping find ways to maximize each person’s distance potential by creating a swing that will do so.
I was discussing this issue this morning after looking at Tour driving averages. For 20 years, the average has slowly increased. Two big jumps in the early 2000s corresponding with the introduction of the ProV1 ball on tour and the second big jump when 460cc drivers. Since then, it seems like the increases each year have been pretty small, until a 4 yd jump in 2018. I’m not sure what may have caused that jump, but my brilliant buddy @radiman suggested perhaps SuperSpeed and other over speed training becoming popular.
I do not think distance has just recently been a problem. So I definitely don’t blame Bryson. I think the concern is the trajectory. Even minimal increases each year will eventually add up, just like the 20+ yards we’ve seen in the past 20 years. I have no clue what the answer is, but I sure hope we don’t lose venues in the next 20 years because they can’t contain the bombers on tour.
The bulk is there to support his body at the increased speeds. I am sure part of the increase is strength. But, it’s only a small piece of the story. But, since it’s the most visible change, it’s often all they talk about on TV.
I think you’re underestimating the response to Tiger’s length advantage. One of the four major stops on tour not only lengthened the course, but it removed and replaced trees designed to get in his way. It is no coincidence that within the first 12 years after Augusta National was “Tiger Proofed,” 6 of the winners were left handed. How many before then? 0.
Tour average is 296 in the 2020 season. In 2010 it was 287.. So while there are a few more "bombers" are we really freaking out about what acounts to a 1 yard increase per year?? While I think a tour average increase has high potential. The longest average I think is very very close if not already at max…
My gut tells me that you will not see much more than 321 average distance for a single player. Maybe a couple more but that is it.. Even with Bryson talking 48 inch driver. I dont think you will see much more in actual results.. That is just me though..
I couldn’t agree more and applaud what Bryson is doing. It’s not easy to get longer and still hit it straight enough, many PGA Tour players have tried and failed.
By the same logic, the NFL and their fans should be upset about and figure out how to punish guys like Aaron Donald for working harder at his fitness than many of his peers. Maybe he should wear a scuba weight belt while playing to slow him down, lol.
Limits are not standards, and that’s an important difference that may be subtle, but not semantics. The concept of prevention vs. detection also plays a role here.
For example, a speed limit does not prohibit me from driving faster than what’s posted. Conversely, a governor on my motor could prevent me from exceeding a standard. A smoke detector doesn’t prevent the fire, etc, etc.
I’m not suggesting all equipment be exactly the same, but can we get to a point where more preventative measures are in place to truly limit excessive equipment variance? Can we get to a place where the only variance is from the talent and skill of the player?
I think that is a legitimate question to ask.
You raise a good point. I was viewing the issue as perhaps a 1 yd increase indefinitely. But at some point, that should plateau, right? If so, I don’t really see the problem.
It is in place, its the CT test.
And frankly, as you know, someone going marginally over in CT does not mean much.
But furthermore, every player has access to the same equipment. If they choose to cash in and play something they believe is not as good or we know is not as good, that is on them.
I guess I am not following. If we have a test in place and we have rules in place to keep things at that limit, what else is one asking for other than to have everybody playing the exact same model?
Of course not, though it would have been an equally valid question then too. But Bryson has always been polarizing, and he is openly pushing distance to the limits, so he is any easy target for the people favoring some sort of “roll back.”
1. John Daly..
2. Tiger Woods
3. Davis Love III
T3. Phil Mickelson
Nothing to unexpected there.. Here is where to me it gets fun..
5. Scott McCarron
6. Casey Martin
7. Harrsion Frazar
8. Stuart Appleby
9. mathew Goggin
10. Robert Allenby..
None of these guys even stand out as really even being that athletic and if you asked me to name the top drivers would have even come close to my radar..
And half of that jump from 272 came in two years.
Bryson was 6th in distance that week.. 6th..
Prov1 baby… Released to the public Oct 9, 2000. By 2001/2002 every tour player was playing a solid core ball.
That’s my point though: a limit is not the same as a standard. If equipment was kept to a standard, it would eliminate any question as to what players are using, and golf courses would know what’s coming at them. Plus, it would allow stronger players to keep getting stronger, thus outperforming their peers anyway.
It is kept to a standard.
That is why they have a CT test and use it frequently.
The problem is dumb people (relative term) are dealing with really smart people. The rocket scientist designing these clubs will find work arounds to every limit. They love that kind of thing. The more constraints you give, the better the club they will design.
For example. Wedges.. Tell me todays wedges do not spin as much if not more than the box groove wedges from yesteryear?? Because they do.. They just figured out another way to do it. And its better because they do not chew balls like the old wedges did.
"The limit of time placed on golf clubs is 239 milliseconds with a tolerance of 18 milliseconds. Therefore, any golf club that measures higher than 257 milliseconds on the CT test is deemed illegal. "
That’s not a standard, that’s a limit.
Again though, it is capped. The CT test does that very thing.
They can expand around the balance point to hit that mark off center, but it is absolutely capped and has been for quite a while.
I like this idea.
Jeez, I could chase stats all day.. It just tells the story..
US open week. Rory was longer (6th), hit more fairways (3rd), and hit more greens (3rd).. He is a terrible terrible putter (50).. only 11 golfers worse than him that played the weekend.
Why not?? I mean Mac does not exist anymore ?? so they are an obvious no. But you dont think the rest would or could build what Bryson is asking for??
So should baseball all use the exact same bats and gloves? Nascar use the exact same car? Tennis use the exact same rackets?
If all brands were required to produce basically the same equipment wouldn’t that have a huge negative impact on marketing for those companies?
Now we’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s not a question of if, it’s a question about dollars.
Also, the other sports comparison is a red herring argument.
Everybody plays identical gear.
Wears identical apparel.
Hits it the same distance.
We give trophies to everybody.
In all of this distance debate, I have never heard one person claim that the reason Bryson is gaining distance is because of Cobra golf clubs. All of these players are using equipment that conforms to the rules of golf. The courses already know what’s coming at them in that regard.
Any OEM is free to make a club that is below that limit. But, it is pretty much standard practice to design clubs to meet that number as close as they can without going over.
If fairways stopped propelling the ball 70+ yards forward on contact, the distance debate would go away.
I agree with this too.
Human ingenuity will never end, nor should it. People will always find a way. Can golf find a way to maintain the balance? Not sure. But it has a great track record of being able to.
What came to golf at/after Tiger was a generation of athletic and highly skilled players willing to go the extra mile to improve their craft. This fell after the generation of players who were convinced that physical fitness was actually detrimental to their game.
When you look at the distance debate, we’ve always had outliers. Guys who hit the ball way far with ‘the pack’ being well behind. I think the time for that in golf is departing, with young talent closing the gap aggressively, with others who are not so distance inclined to find ways to go about it their own way (Bryson).
Personally, I think anything done right now to alter distance is knee jerk.
Or, we ignore the weenies. The guys that are complaining because they can’t hit if far and "it’s not fair".
I am looking forward to next year’s EquiDistance Bash Experience.
Overall, I think the game has already moved on, and the distance debate has become moot to reality. For reasons expressed in this thread, OEMs want this trend to continue so they can sell more stuff. That’s not a criticism. Golf has always been a game that has been defined by those who play it, and how it’s played.
All of a sudden, I feel like Jeff Goldblum …
For some reason, it seems that athletes in every other sport are praised for using science, new training methods, advanced metrics, etc. to improve and maximize their performance. But somehow, when golfers do it, there is something wrong with the game and we need to entirely revamp the rules? My question is, why? Because Geoff Shackleford thinks that some old golf courses that 99% of the population has no chance of ever setting foot on need to be played the way they were designed at the turn of the last century? Or because Jack doesn’t like that a lot of people don’t consider him the greatest of all time any more? Or maybe because some, and I emphasize some, people would rather see pros hit 6 irons into greens than wedges on TV?
I really don’t get it. What’s wrong with the best in the world being way better than everyone else? Especially since regular golfers can put it in context more easily than other sports. I can’t go try to make a 3-pointer at Madison Square Garden with an NBA player in my face or try to hit home runs in Dodgers Stadium against major league pitching. But I can go play Torrey Pines, or Bethpage, or Shadow Creek, etc. with the same equipment as the pros (mostly) from the same tees (sometimes). And isn’t part of the draw saying, "how in the hell could he have possibly hit driver-wedge on this hole" or "I’d have to play out of my mind to break 80 and these guys shot 4 rounds in the 60s"?
Bingo.
Im going to mandate that all NBA games should feature only set shots.
couple all that with data driven swing improvements and optimization and here we are.
Hold my beer.
It’s because I’m 65 and they are 27.
But let me move up a few tees and I can hit lob wedge for my approach on a 300 yrd par 4. I am now 27 again.
Is this about Geoff again? He has a great interest in golf architecture and old and ancient courses, so this is no surprise if he is generating this chaos.
You have done a great job summing up a lot of my views. Very well put. Perhaps my biggest gripe is the fact that a lot of this is supposedly to protect ultra exclusive courses that I would likely have security called on me if I step foot on the property without a member escorting me.
I really don’t see the issue. Here’s the top 15 so far this season. Aside from about 5 names you hear often, it’s mostly guys that you never see holding trophies, or in the final pairings on Sunday. Every sport has dominant athletes and the cream will always rise to the top. It’s the same reason LeBron has been to nearly every NBA Finals for a decade and Tom Brady won a bunch of superbowls. Nobody wanted to change the clay at the French Open to stop Nadal from slaughtering everyone. Golf seems to be the only sport that wants to stop its athletes from performing at a higher level and it makes no sense.
ZOZO Championship – Bridgestone. All clubs, balls, and apparel used by players would be Bridgestone.
Bermuda Chamionship – Cleveland
Vivint Houston Open – Titleist
Masters Tournament – Wilson Staff
The RSM Classic – PING
Mayakoba Golf Classic – Callaway
QBE Shootout – TaylorMade
Sentry Tournament of Champions – Tour Edge
Sony Open in Hawaii – Titleist
The American Express – Srixon
It’s a stupid idea and I know it wouldn’t work for a lot of reasons.
Companies would complain that their competitors got better tournament selection
Players would skip tournaments if they didn’t like the equipment sponsor for that tournament
Players would complain about having to change equipment weekly
How about courses make things more interesting by moving the hole during a round? Make it a moving target or something like that?
You would also hit a wall where certain gear fits one player better than another. It would be a mess. If there is a cookie cutter approach it would effect the field disproportionally giving some players a head start.