Off Course is back this week with a fantastic show and this is episode 198. Hosted by Dan Edwards, each Friday he gives you a deep look into the world of golf and equipment in a way unlike any other podcast has done before. Today, Markus McCaine and Bob Thurman from Wilson Golf join the show to discuss the Wilson Golf Story and the challenges and benefits of being a multi-sport company.
It wouldn’t be Off Course without some tangents, but Dan, Markus and Bob dive into all things Wilson Golf including the amazing history. This show has a lot going on and is one you will not want to miss as Bob Thurman and Markus McCaine go Off Course.

Episode 198 is here and Dan, Markus and Bob discuss the following topics.
The Wilson Golf Story
Bob’s 30+ Year Wilson Tenure
Being a Multi-Sport Company – Challenges and Benefits
Wilson vs Wilson Staff
Connecting the Tour to Design and Consumers
And so much more
You can listen to the show right here, Apple Podcasts or anywhere you do your listening and downloading from. Search for the Hackers Paradise and make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. After listening, come back over and drop us a note below on what you agree and/or disagree with from the episode. If you get a chance, drop us a review wherever you listen from and let others know what you think of the show and/or channel.
THPGolf · Wilson Golf Goes Off Course
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[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12217286, member: 3″]
I didnt say that.
If you are looking for a website to tell you what is best, this isn’t the place. Rankings are ********.
But you could have found out if they were better, that is what I was asking. You said if you build it they will come. They built it, you are a fan, why didn’t you try them? Genuine question.
[/QUOTE]
Not referring to rankings. More just general buzz on the forum(s).
I think, to answer your question, you have a sense of the brands you would consider in your next club purchase. Wilson hasn’t been one of them for me. (Not trying to slam anyone, we’ve established I’m not a hater. Just being honest.)
So to go outside of your preconceived notions you would need a reason, like hearing people on a forum talk about how great they are, etc. It may just be laziness on my part, but there has to be some sort of catalyst to try something that you weren’t previously considering. For example, for me Srixon wasn’t a consideration in years past. Then I kept hearing about how great they were and now they’re in the conversation when it’s time to buy clubs. If the current Wilson lineup is truly great, then I think that’s the obstacle for them now. Getting in the conversation.
Perhaps the interview on Off Course and whatever else Wilson does to market their product encourages people to give it a try. I believe that is the point of all of this. My experience with past Wilson product (Driver, 3W, wedges, balls, gloves and bags) have all been positive. Yes, Triton did require noise cancelling headphones but it was a rocket launcher. Perception is a funny thing. I don’t care for certain brands and its silly but I get it.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217224, member: 53139″]
I think Wilson needs better tour representation. They need a top 50’ish player to put them in and win. They seem to have started growing in the Youtube space recently and have a couple good players that are pretty impressive and young there. That should help a little.
[/QUOTE]
Min Woo Lee
Sungjae Im
Emiliano Grillo
Nicolai Hojgaard
Harris English
Eric Cole
Lucas Glover
Byeong Hun An
Kurt Kitayama
JT Poston
Si Woo Kim
Ryan Fox
Jake Knapp
Corey Conners
Austin Eckroat
Denny McCarthy
Adam Hadwin
Which of these players ranked 30-50th would move the needle for Wilson?
The name crossovers from companies is an interesting call.
Vapor from Nike.
Catalyst and HZRDUS from Project X.
I can think of a few guys who would go out of their way to play a Wilson driver with “DiMarini technology” all over it.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217457, member: 2320″]
The name crossovers from companies is an interesting call.
Vapor from Nike.
Catalyst and HZRDUS from Project X.
I can think of a few guys who would go out of their way to play a Wilson driver with “DiMarini technology” all over it.
[/QUOTE]
Zen, Zoa, Voodoo (all high end DeMarini’s composites) would resonate with an entire generation of baseball kids.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217438, member: 2320″]
[B][I]Min Woo Lee[/I][/B]
Sungjae Im
Emiliano Grillo
[B][I]Nicolai Hojgaard[/I][/B]
Harris English
Eric Cole
Lucas Glover
Byeong Hun An
Kurt Kitayama
JT Poston
[B][I]Si Woo Kim[/I][/B]
Ryan Fox
[B][I]Jake Knapp[/I][/B]
Corey Conners
[B][I]Austin Eckroat[/I][/B]
Denny McCarthy
Adam Hadwin
Which of these players ranked 30-50th would move the needle for Wilson?
[/QUOTE]
see above. Let me know your thoughts.. Min Woo probably being the best option followed by Knapp and Eckroat.
I don’t think needle moving is as important as validation in a general sense.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217475, member: 53139″]
see above. Let me know your thoughts.. Min Woo probably being the best option followed by Knapp and Eckroat.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not at all lost on me right now that the golf Gods are entertaining us with Streelman leading this week after round one.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217492, member: 2320″]
It’s not at all lost on me right now that the golf Gods are entertaining us with Streelman leading this week after round one.
[/QUOTE]
He does pop up once a year or so. I honestly forgot he was still playing golf..
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217475, member: 53139″]
see above. Let me know your thoughts.. Min Woo probably being the best option followed by Knapp and Eckroat.
[/QUOTE]
You genuinely believe as the front man in a staff, a guy like Eckroat moves the needle? I work in golf and wouldn’t know him if he came into my office right now haha.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12217505, member: 3″]
You genuinely believe as the front man in a staff, a guy like Eckroat moves the needle? I work in golf and wouldn’t know him if he came into my office right now haha.
[/QUOTE]
I had to double check at least half of those names to make sure I was spelling them right (I was not lmao)
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217475, member: 53139″]
see above. Let me know your thoughts.. Min Woo probably being the best option followed by Knapp and Eckroat.
[/QUOTE]
I know I don’t watch either tour like I used to but I don’t think either of these guys do a thing for the brand.
[B]PS:[/B] For me I would rather see feedback from fellow THPers. As was mentioned earlier the perception of Wilson is not great in the eyes of many. I read Thrillbilly Jim’s posts today on getting fit and his reaction to trying the Wilson DP Forged along with other irons was something I can relate to.
It’s lazy to think that all a company needs is tour presence. Nike was winning majors and had/has clubs in the bag of non-staff major winners. Didn’t keep them afloat.
I know it’s overly simplistic, but just having a presence at golf courses matters. Setup demo days, try and get course pros on staff. Making sure clubs are available to purchase. Right now I cannot order a full set of Dynapower irons from Wilson. The 5, 8, 9, PW are out of stock. Who makes enough enough 3i but runs out of stock of 5is?
I was at the Innovation Center with THP in 2016, was told we were not a part of the advisory staff, went back down for a driver fitting, then turnover and silence. They make products I want to try, but I can’t find them and I am not buying them on a whim. It’s a shame because I still fondly remember the Tour V6 irons. Loved those.
I would happily play a full bag of Wilson clubs, including the ball, I think they make great stuff but they make it so difficult for me to feel like they want me to play their stuff.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12217505, member: 3″]
You genuinely believe as the front man in a staff, a guy like Eckroat moves the needle? I work in golf and wouldn’t know him if he came into my office right now haha.
[/QUOTE]
I think he has potential. Thats all. He is young and in only his first couple years on tour. That is my thinking. Currently no. But I would think Wilson would try to sign young potential and hope they pan out. If they do and you dont sign them it could be too late..
It is the baseball prospect game that I am trying to play.
[QUOTE=”annsguy, post: 12217525, member: 19928″]
I know I don’t watch either tour like I used to but I don’t think either of these guys do a thing for the brand.
[B]PS:[/B] For me I would rather see feedback from fellow THPers. As was mentioned earlier the perception of Wilson is not great in the eyes of many. I read Thrillbilly Jim’s posts today on getting fit and his reaction to trying the Wilson DP Forged along with other irons was something I can relate to.
[/QUOTE]
Ill ask you as probably Wilson Golf’s biggest fan in the world.
You know they make great equipment. You know you like the equipment. You want to see them succeed.
Your bag has 1 Wilson club, an older putter model.
Certainly you have purchased equipment. Everything in there is from the past handful of years.
Yet no Wilson. Why?
I really appreciate the level of energy that comes into a thread like this, for a company like Wilson.
Everyone seems to have a story about Wilson from some point in their life. Whether it was a club they believed in, or the club that a guy like Arnold Palmer used… it’s so interesting to see the variety in their history from our own bubbles.
For me, it’s irons. Not wedges, not drivers, not putters, irons. The V6 irons were the last real story line for my connection to the brand, and I genuinely missed that.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12217642, member: 3″]
Ill ask you as probably Wilson Golf’s biggest fan in the world.
You know they make great equipment. You know you like the equipment. You want to see them succeed.
Your bag has 1 Wilson club, an older putter model.
Certainly you have purchased equipment. Everything in there is from the past handful of years.
Yet no Wilson. Why?
[/QUOTE]
I play a lot less than most THPers due to some medical issues. (Spinal compaction and knees) Frankly, buying irons to mainly hit balls at the range is just not an expense I feel justified in making. Last, I had a friend associated with a golf company and a lot of my clubs where in trade for athletic stuff I represented..
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217438, member: 2320″]
Which of these players ranked 30-50th would move the needle for Wilson?
[/QUOTE]
Probably none from your list but you missed a few. Will Zalatoris, Brooks Koepka, and Rickie Fowler are all ranked between 30-50th; most would agree they could be needle movers for Wilson.
[QUOTE=”*Range Rat, post: 12217735, member: 50399″]
Probably none from your list but you missed a few. Will Zalatoris, Brooks Koepka, and Rickie Fowler are all ranked between 30-50th; most would agree they could be needle movers for Wilson.
[/QUOTE]
None of those players are in the window of price point. All three come at a premium.
If I was going to name them I may as well name the majority of players in the top 30.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217750, member: 2320″]
None of those players are in the window of price point. All three come at a premium.
If I was going to name them I may as well name the majority of players in the top 30.
[/QUOTE]
To lump Brooks into the OWGR 30-50 is silly.
The answer is not tour staff.
[QUOTE=”Canadan, post: 12217750, member: 2320″]
None of those players are in the window of price point. All three come at a premium.
If I was going to name them I may as well name the majority of players in the top 30.
[/QUOTE]
That is why I picked the names I picked. I think even Minn Woo is really out of reach. You have to think prospects. Not players that are established. Who is young and could win? It is tough and it is hard for Wilson to break in. But I think tour validation is important for them to truly turn their image around.
[QUOTE=”blugold, post: 12217754, member: 3249″]
To lump Brooks into the OWGR 30-50 is silly.
[/QUOTE]
Top 30-50 is who it is & the only criteria given. Brooks is in that group & fits the criteria.
Tour staff isn’t the answer.
[QUOTE=”Jman, post: 12217963, member: 1579″]
Tour staff isn’t the answer.
[/QUOTE]
So what is? I know we dont like admit it. But tour success is a huge deal.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217981, member: 53139″]
So what is? I know we dont like admit it. But tour success is a huge deal.
[/QUOTE]
It can be a huge deal. But barring signing 10 players, does it work?
Using Mizuno for example. Do you think their recent success over the last 3-4 years has anything to do with Keith Mitchell?
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217981, member: 53139″]
So what is? I know we dont like admit it. But tour success is a huge deal.
[/QUOTE]
It is for the top of the food chain. For the middle and bottom, it’s wasting a LOT of money.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12217987, member: 3″]
It can be a huge deal. But barring signing 10 players, does it work?
Using Mizuno for example. Do you think their recent success over the last 3-4 years has anything to do with Keith Mitchell?
[/QUOTE]
I think it has some, yes. How much? I honestly can’t answer that question. Did GM golf do more for them on Youtube than Keith? Again, I honestly can’t answer..
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12217999, member: 53139″]
I think it has some, yes. How much? I honestly can’t answer that question. Did GM golf do more for them on Youtube than Keith? Again, I honestly can’t answer..
[/QUOTE]
Or was it good messaging, high tech, quality equipment and getting core golfers involved?
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218005, member: 3″]
Or was it good messaging, high tech, quality equipment and getting core golfers involved?
[/QUOTE]
Hard for me to answer. I think buzz is needed and some kind of catalyst to create momentum.
I think in the case of Mizuno, I do think there was a singular moment that has created strong headwinds and momentum. That was Brooks winning majors with Mizuno clubs. The JPX 900 was an amazing line that was very very popular. I remember seeing those everywhere. I think that got the ball rolling. Mizuno was doing good before that, but that helped a lot I think. And once something is moving it is easier to keep it moving even after he left.
Interestingly Srixon got momentum after signing Brooks as well. So it does point to tour play being important.
I am totally guessing on a lot of this. I do find it all very interesting.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12218021, member: 53139″]
Hard for me to answer. I think buzz is needed and some kind of catalyst to create momentum.
I think in the case of Mizuno, I do think there was a singular moment that has created strong headwinds and momentum. That was Brooks winning majors with Mizuno clubs. I think that got the ball rolling. Mizuno was doing good before that, but that helped a lot I think. And once something is moving it is easier to keep it moving even after he left.
Interestingly Srixon got momentum after signing Brooks as well. So it does point to tour play being important.
I am totally guessing on a lot of this. I do find it all very interesting.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe. Although i’m not sure on the Brooks with Srixon.
Out of the players you mentioned, which one appears to have increased sales? Did Knapp have people going PXG studios? Asking seriously as I can’t think that would be the case.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218025, member: 3″]
Maybe. Although i’m not sure on the Brooks with Srixon.
Out of the players you mentioned, [I][B]which one appears to have increased sales?[/B][/I] Did Knapp have people going PXG studios? Asking seriously as I can’t think that would be the case.
[/QUOTE]
Probably none or even less than none. Knapp won an event 7 people watch. Eckroat no one had heard of and he plays Ping.. Ping is kind of a different story all together. Ping is a weird company that to me, seems like a lot of the norms do not apply. Or their norms are different from everyone else’s norms…
But, the next question is.. What if they win again? What changes then? For Eckroat being a Ping player… Probably nothing. Knapp…. maybe a different story.. Very strong maybe. lol.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12218037, member: 53139″]
Probably none or even less than none. Knapp won an event 7 people watch. Eckroat no one had heard of and he plays Ping.. Ping is kind of a different story all together. Ping is a weird company that to me, seems like a lot of the norms do not apply. Or their norms are different from everyone else’s norms…
But, the next question is.. What if they win again? What changes then? For Eckroat being a Ping player… Probably nothing. Knapp…. maybe a different story.. Very strong maybe. lol.
[/QUOTE]
Let me ask like this. Steel man wins twice this year. You curious?
[USER=3]@JB[/USER]
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218043, member: 3″]
Let me ask like this. Steel man wins twice this year. You curious?
[/QUOTE]
haha!! I was literally typing something to this when I saw the ” you have unread messages” line pop..
No.. Steelman doesn’t do anything for me. Sorry.. Knapp does more for me right now than Steelman has his whole career. He is more interesting to me right now than Steelman.. Why? 190 mph ballspeeds..
Great listen. I came into golf when the “startups” as he referred to them, like Callaway and Taylormade were taking off. So, I had no exposure at all to Wilson, and to hear about their history was news to me. Hearing about the fitting vault and all the spec sheets for all those people was pretty cool too.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218043, member: 3″]
Let me ask like this. Steel man wins twice this year. You curious?
[/QUOTE]
I’d have to look up how much Wilson product is in his bag.
Assume just irons, maybe wedges.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12218051, member: 53139″]
[USER=3]@JB[/USER]
haha!! I was literally typing something to this when I saw the ” you have unread messages” line pop..
No.. Steelman doesn’t do anything for me. Sorry.. Knapp does more for me right now than Steelman has his whole career. He is more interesting to me right now than Steelman.. Why? 190 mph ballspeeds..
[/QUOTE]
Weird ?
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218076, member: 3″]
Weird ?
[/QUOTE]
I am.. yes..
[USER=3]@JB[/USER]
The real question we should all be asking is. What would it take to get me to play Wilson products? That is the question they have to figure out.
[QUOTE=”Templet0n, post: 12218092, member: 53139″]
[USER=3]@JB[/USER]
The real question we should all be asking is. What would it take to get me to play Wilson products? That is the question they have to figure out.
[/QUOTE]
Of course. That’s their job not yours as the golfer and I appreciated the candor from Bob and Markus.
Scottie Scheffler wins and nobody says why does he only play long TM clubs and not short game. If someone wins with Wilson the first question is why is there no driver or putter or fill in the blank other than irons.
I think that is tough to overcome and we saw it took a number of years before Mizuno or Srixon or others did.
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218107, member: 3″]
Of course. That’s their job not yours as the golfer and I appreciated the candor from Bob and Markus.
Scottie Scheffler wins and nobody says why does he only play long TM clubs and not short game. If someone wins with Wilson the first question is why is there no driver or putter or fill in the blank other than irons.
I think that is tough to overcome and we saw it took a number of years before Mizuno or Srixon or others did.
[/QUOTE]
For sure. I have enjoyed to pod so far. I am not finished. I have enjoyed this conversation as well. As honestly, I have no idea what moves the needle with equipment. Is it fancy and super expensive commercials with lasers and loud sounds? Is it tour play? I dont think that simply having the best equipment does it. But you have to have good equipment and some message to get people to go look at it.. I think this is all really fun to think about..
interesting pod.
good timing for Streelman to be T1 out there gaming Wilson Staff irons…
I really do think it’s a messaging issue as people have been saying.
how does Wilson get me? prove the quality and get the clubs in my hands. every other brand has either demos in my pro shop or comes every year for one or more demo days on the range. is there a THP Experience in the future?
how do they get a broader audience? market the quality to overcome the “they make whiffle balls” issue and make them cool. and get a pro shop network – all my avid but not golf sicko friends play the clubs that our pro recommended and sold to them. he pushes Ping and TaylorMade because they take care of him.
[QUOTE=”lambeau, post: 12219155, member: 49299″]
how does Wilson get me? prove the quality and get the clubs in my hands. every other brand has either demos in my pro shop or comes every year for one or more demo days on the range. is there a THP Experience in the future?
[/QUOTE]
No sir there is not
Gave a second listen this morning to the Off Course with the guys from Wilson. I wanted to commend Dan on his preparation. It makes your guests at ease and creates a very good podcast. I hope there is a follow up with focus on product. Although they are an iron company I believe the next collection of woods are important to round out the offering.
I’ll echo the others as to it was a great interview from [USER=2320]@Canadan[/USER] with asking hard questions and credit to Wilson for not shying away. As someone who their first set was Wilson Dunlop irons it was great to hear.
As the the why for me, it’s mostly market penetration and how they are treated at the local stores, both big box and more local-type shops. When I’ve asked to hit them, you sometimes get a pause or a startled look like “why are you asking to hit that”. It has honestly given me pause.
And, yeah, it’s vanity, but I’ve also never liked the look of the power holes in the irons. Same reason I shy away from the Taylormade irons with the slot on theirs. With a market flooded with good gear, the margins matter.
Before skimming and posting my thoughts, I read through here and the question I was going to ask was already asked.
If we all want Wilson to be great because decades ago we liked their clubs, what’s stopping us from having them now? And the answer is nothing. It comes down to they haven’t given us a reason to WANT them in our bags. What has to change though? For me, first off it’s the Name. Wilson just has to go. The umbrella has a lot of top of the line products from other incredibly popular sports they can tap into that might help? I know my son would love to try a Zoa driver
[QUOTE=”JB, post: 12218107, member: 3″]
Of course. That’s their job not yours as the golfer and I appreciated the candor from Bob and Markus.
[I][B]Scottie Scheffler wins and nobody says why does he only play long TM clubs and not short game. If someone wins with Wilson the first question is why is there no driver or putter or fill in the blank other than irons.
[/B][/I]
[B][I]I think that is tough to overcome and we saw it took a number of years before Mizuno or Srixon or others did.[/I][/B]
[/QUOTE]
Do you think Wilson has the vision, desire, and R&D money to overcome this?
[QUOTE=”Jeff Spicoli, post: 12223269, member: 10545″]
Do you think Wilson has the vision, desire, and R&D money to overcome this?
[/QUOTE]
That’s the million dollar question right?
Desire yes. R&d money? Not to compete with some, but bigger than others and it would surprise people. Vision? I genuinely don’t know. I happen to like Bob and Markus a lot. Bob being a product person and Markus coming from a faster pace situation and working on growth should help.
Can it be executed? Well this one isn’t up to me. I want to say yes. When I wrote a few months ago that people would see change, it was when I learned Markus was headed there. He’s smart. He’s also bold and has been working with a golf brand that is on the smaller side of a global brand from Cobra/Puma so has experience there.
Will Wilson let them run? I genuinely don’t know but I hope so.