Official 2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[Damaikis]

The NBA cap is more difficult to be over than the MLB tax level, but there are still many ways around the cap unlike the NFL. Most of the contenders in the NBA will be over the soft cap, but the Heat can't go out and sign any one they want in that sense. There are many clauses with going over the soft cap, and you cannot go over whenever you want.

Okay thanks. This is starting to make more sense to me. I see the idea. This is still not a "big market team signs whoever they want" league (like baseball) because of max contracts. Almost any team can offer the same amount if they have the money. Not like baseball where guys get $200 mil+.

 

[blugold]

One of the sticking points in the CBA discussions with the NBA was the cap. The owners wanted a hard cap. That meant non-guaranteed contracts. The player refused.

 

[Damaikis]

Thanks again JB. That makes more sense now. Still, the max contracts thing makes a decent-sized difference I would think.

 

[JB]

Okay thanks. This is starting to make more sense to me. I see the idea. This is still not a "big market team signs whoever they want" league (like baseball) because of max contracts. Almost any team can offer the same amount if they have the money. Not like baseball where guys get $200 mil+.

Again, not really the case. While contract slotting has helped, it still does not eliminate the big market teams buying up talent. Big market teams are still able to HUGELY outspend small market teams and always will due to the way the cap is handled. The exceptions, further that by letting them add veterans and other players while already over the cap.

 

[Damaikis]

Again, not really the case. While contract slotting has helped, it still does not eliminate the big market teams buying up talent. Big market teams are still able to HUGELY outspend small market teams and always will due to the way the cap is handled. The exceptions, further that by letting them add veterans and other players while already over the cap.

Yes but with the max contracts that allows teams like the Hawks to get a max guy like Joe Johnson. To an extent. It doesn't eliminate big market teams getting all the talent, but it helps some, more than is said in the MLB. Now this makes sense to me. Thanks for all the clarifications guys.

 

[ripper]

Chris Paul fuming and exploring legal options w/NBPA director Billy Hunter to fight blocked deal..... Any hope here???

 

[JB]

Yes but with the max contracts that allows teams like the Hawks to get a max guy like Joe Johnson. To an extent. It doesn't eliminate big market teams getting all the talent, but it helps some, more than is said in the MLB. Now this makes sense to me. Thanks for all the clarifications guys.

However the flip side is that small market teams can never jump up and offer a little more. There is no incentive for someone to go small market and that leaves small market teams to offer huge deals to guys in a gamble and then be saddled with those deals that set a team back. It is becoming nearly impossible for most of these small market teams to compete year after year unless they hit a shot in the dark and guess right. Teams are spending 3 times as much as them and you just cannot overcome that.

 

[Jank]

Chris Paul fuming and exploring legal options w/NBPA director Billy Hunter to fight blocked deal..... Any hope here???

Take this with a grain of salt as I saw it on a Rockets board, but apparently Daryl Morey (Rockets GM) was working on a deal with NO to get Chris Paul to Houston, but NO wanted to get more out of the trade. I feel that if Houston would offer Lowry, Martin, Scola for Paul and another player to balance the deal the trade would go through. The trade got vetoed because of LA I believe. I'm using Houston as more of an example than anything, but a Chris Paul trade still will go through to other teams.

 

[ripper]

I am going to throw this one out to you guys who know stuff.. The league owns the Hornets at the moment right? I would assume the GM reports to the league then? How did it get this far? Didnt Stern know before the trade was made this was going to be a big problem? Its been rumored for a few days now....

 

[Damaikis]

However the flip side is that small market teams can never jump up and offer a little more. There is no incentive for someone to go small market and that leaves small market teams to offer huge deals to guys in a gamble and then be saddled with those deals that set a team back. It is becoming nearly impossible for most of these small market teams to compete year after year unless they hit a shot in the dark and guess right. Teams are spending 3 times as much as them and you just cannot overcome that.

True, that does suck. I just hope the Nets join in and get Williams and Howard. If you can't beat 'em join 'em! Lol.

 

[Jank]

However the flip side is that small market teams can never jump up and offer a little more. There is no incentive for someone to go small market and that leaves small market teams to offer huge deals to guys in a gamble and then be saddled with those deals that set a team back. It is becoming nearly impossible for most of these small market teams to compete year after year unless they hit a shot in the dark and guess right. Teams are spending 3 times as much as them and you just cannot overcome that.

Yeah, the only way that small teams can compete is with taking a big gamble in FA as mentioned or getting lucky in the draft with top picks like how San Antonio worked their way up from being a "small market" to a "big market" in the NBA sense.

 

[Damaikis]

I am going to throw this one out to you guys who know stuff.. The league owns the Hornets at the moment right? I would assume the GM reports to the league then? How did it get this far? Didnt Stern know before the trade was made this was going to be a big problem? Its been rumored for a few days now....

I think it's because the other owners just started complaining now. But I may be wrong.

 

[blugold]

The NBA is so messed up. This is the newest reason why this league is dying.

 

[blugold]

Yeah, the only way that small teams can compete is with taking a big gamble in FA as mentioned or getting lucky in the draft with top picks like how San Antonio worked their way up from being a "small market" to a "big market" in the NBA sense.

When was the last time that San Antonio made a splash in free agency? They are not a big market team.

 

[Jank]

True, that does suck. I just hope the Nets join in and get Williams and Howard. If you can't beat 'em join 'em! Lol.

I see the Nets as a preferred destination for NBA players behind the LAs and Chicagos of the NBA because their owners have the assets and desire to spend big with Prokhorov and Jay-Z. The money is not the issue in the sense of NJ, it's just a battle of persuasion and other factors. I'm sure that NJ can spend money with the best of 'em as the luxury tax is no big deal for them

 

[blugold]

How much money do you think Jay-Z has. He isn't Cuban or Prokhorov rich. Not even close.

 

[Jank]

When was the last time that San Antonio made a splash in free agency? They are not a big market team.

I disagree. In basketball sense, they are a big market team. A team doesn't win 4 championships in a decade by being small market. True San Antonio might not be seen as a large market in a size sense, but basketball terms are different. SA didn't have to make huge moves to win championships because they drafted a HOFer in Duncan, and have had Ginobili and Parker for their careers as compliments to the cornerstone. They used the end of David Robinson's career with the beginning of Duncan's career to build a powerhouse in the NBA from the ground up.

 

[Jank]

And Prokhorov and Jay-Z are working together. Jay-Z is worth enough to compliment Prokhorov on spending big $$$ in the NBA which is why they were able to get Dwill. Now they just have to add another piece in order to contend in the East.

 

[blugold]

I disagree. In basketball sense, they are a big market team. A team doesn't win 4 championships in a decade by being small market. True San Antonio might not be seen as a large market in a size sense, but basketball terms are different. SA didn't have to make huge moves to win championships because they drafted a HOFer in Duncan, and have had Ginobili and Parker for their careers as compliments to the cornerstone. They used the end of David Robinson's career with the beginning of Duncan's career to build a powerhouse in the NBA from the ground up.

That doesn't mean they're a big market team. When was the last time they made a splash in free agency? I am not disputing that they have been really good. But they are not in the same boat as the large market teams. They will never have a roster like LA, Boston, Miami, or NY. They don't have the same sort of cash flow.

 

[blugold]

I don't watch a lot of NBA, or know that much of they're labor agreement. All I know is that the same large market teams are contending year in and year out. That theor CBA is still broken. They're league is doomed to fail because people are all looking out for #1.

The NFL model works. The NBA model stinks.

 

[Jank]

That doesn't mean they're a big market team. When was the last time they made a splash in free agency? I am not disputing that they have been really good. But they are not in the same boat as the large market teams. They will never have a roster like LA, Boston, Miami, or NY. They don't have the same sort of cash flow.

Again, I'm letting their championships speak for themselves. They haven't needed to make big splashes to win rings because they built from the ground up. Now in the next few years, yes, they will need to make a move, but SA still sees themselves as contenders. They had the best record in the West last year, but couldn't do much in the playoffs. And I hate los Spurs, so I find it hard that I am defending them, but I feel that they are a great example.

edit: upon re-reading, I see that I didn't technically answer your question, but how many small-market teams have won 4 rings in an 8 year stretch? Even GB is a "big market" in the NFL.

 

[d_in_la]

I am a big fan of a level playing field. Not necessarily done through the media and/or this way, but a level playing field works and works well. its the reason the one sports league that actually has one is the biggest in this country and their top teams right now are not from major markets.

I think parity ALMOST works well. There are marquee teams in every sport and when those teams are good, the entire league does better. IMO NBA: Lakers, Celtics, maybe Bulls, Knicks. NFL: Cowboys, Packers, Steelers. MLB: Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox. NHL: I'll defer, don't know enough about it.

The problem with parity is that it often means lots of ok teams instead of each team taking their turn at the top of the mountain. Right now the NBA looks like the Heat and a bunch of pretty good teams - especially if Chandler doesn't resign with Dallas.

And if Stern did nix the trade - I hope he made it because they were trying to be good stewards for the Hornets not because they felt it would make the Lakers too strong.

 

[d_in_la]

Wow, I just read the rumors of the final offer - wow, if the NBA did nix the deal, they really are screwing the Hornets - Odom, Scola, Kevin Martin and Goran Dragic is a pretty good 4 and a future first rounder. Now Chris Paul really won't resign and leave the Hornets weaker at the end of the season.

 

[JB]

Yeah, the only way that small teams can compete is with taking a big gamble in FA as mentioned or getting lucky in the draft with top picks like how San Antonio worked their way up from being a "small market" to a "big market" in the NBA sense.

How much money do you think Jay-Z has. He isn't Cuban or Prokhorov rich. Not even close.

I disagree. In basketball sense, they are a big market team. A team doesn't win 4 championships in a decade by being small market. True San Antonio might not be seen as a large market in a size sense, but basketball terms are different. SA didn't have to make huge moves to win championships because they drafted a HOFer in Duncan, and have had Ginobili and Parker for their careers as compliments to the cornerstone. They used the end of David Robinson's career with the beginning of Duncan's career to build a powerhouse in the NBA from the ground up.

No offense to Jank, but San Antonio is no where near a big market team. Making solid draft picks to build multiple championships has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a team is "big market". Based on that, the Knicks and Clippers must be tiny markets in "basketball terms". San Antonio is a team that was built well and succeeds based on that, but you used the phrase "basketball terms are different" which is just not correct. Having a winner and being able to keep up with the large markets are two very different things.

I think parity ALMOST works well. There are marquee teams in every sport and when those teams are good, the entire league does better. IMO NBA: Lakers, Celtics, maybe Bulls, Knicks. NFL: Cowboys, Packers, Steelers. MLB: Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox. NHL: I'll defer, don't know enough about it.

The problem with parity is that it often means lots of ok teams instead of each team taking their turn at the top of the mountain. Right now the NBA looks like the Heat and a bunch of pretty good teams - especially if Chandler doesn't resign with Dallas.

And if Stern did nix the trade - I hope he made it because they were trying to be good stewards for the Hornets not because they felt it would make the Lakers too strong.

Having marquee teams is just fine. Many times based on tradition and location. Nothing wrong with a team earning that and being in the limelight. However since you used the example of football, I think its kind of fitting here. The Colts from Indy are not exactly marquee. Yet from the time they drafted Manning, they certainly became that way with the face of football on every commercial. Winners, etc...Winning should make a team the marquee team, not how much money they spend. In the NFL small market competes with big market because every single team is on a level playing field. In the NBA you have the Lakers spending 3 times what some other teams are spending and it is not a level playing field (Its not just the Lakers, they are just the highest payroll). Max contracts were a start, but when is the last time you saw the a small market team like the Bucks, Kings, or heck I could list 10 more make a splash in free agency? They cant because the luxury tax is demanding on the smaller markets.

 

[pjcedog]

How do you define big market vs small market? San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the country, behind only NY, LA, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia and Phoenix.