Why are irons getting stronger lofts?

[Damaikis]

Lots of good points here. I always figured it was because they are making irons easier and easier to hit. If I can hit a 23* 4 iron as easily as a 26* or 27* 4 iron, I'll take the stronger lofted one for more distance. If that makes sense to anyone other than me.

 

[Tmex]

Mind blown. That's a good point.

Queue the next 90 posts telling me Im wrong but also keepingin mind they probably wont find one marketing campaign that says, "my lofts are stronger than yours"

 

[Golf Ghost]

I'm not saying this a reason, but more of some thought:

Could this be less about the irons and more about the woods and hybrids?

Think about it. Companies are marketing drivers and woods as 17 yrds further or the Speed Trials. So to close the gap between those 5 woods to irons, they have strong loft hybrids and long irons, which then keeps the trend going down a complete set. Most sets now include a GW or AW to close the gap between the PW and SW/LW.

Just want to see thoughts on this.

 

[Hawk]

Lots of good points here. I always figured it was because they are making irons easier and easier to hit. If I can hit a 23* 4 iron as easily as a 26* or 27* 4 iron, I'll take the stronger lofted one for more distance. If that makes sense to anyone other than me.

I always had that assumption as well, but I didn't really find that to be the case for me. I'm sure there are a wide range of experiences with that though.

 

[Griff]

Like horsepower sells cars, distance sells golf clubs.

Also, check this out:

i20 irons 24* to 50* = 8 clubs
RBZ irons 23* to 50* = 7 clubs

Pretty cool, now there's an open spot in the bag to buy another club. Sure, most people probably get off the rack 8 club sets. Won't take them long to figure out hitting a RBZ 17.5 degree 3I or 21 degree 4I iron is not easy (depending on where the set starts, 3-P 4-A). Now off to the store to get a RBZ hybrid or a couple woods. TM isn't the only one to do this, they all do it.

It's kind of a win win as well. OEM sells more clubs, player gets more iron coverage with less clubs. Unfortunately, gapping isn't as precise. In my Redline irons I can have 15 yard gaps at times.

Bottom line, it's all about the bottom line.

 

[Hawk]

Queue the next 90 posts telling me Im wrong but also keepingin mind they probably wont find one marketing campaign that says, "my lofts are stronger than yours"

No, it was pretty spot on. They are inherently connected, but not really advertised as such.

 

[SPG40]

I understand the desire for more distance even if its not real distance gained just perceived. My biggest complaint is the different lofts from set to set and company to company. This makes trying new sets and comparing sets much more difficult. I prefer more of a standard in lofts for ease of use and trial.

 

[JR]

GImmee a few minutes with photoshop, Yoccos.

 

[Steel President]

Queue the next 90 posts telling me Im wrong but also keepingin mind they probably wont find one marketing campaign that says, "my lofts are stronger than yours"

I was skimming through this thread and your point definitely jumped out at me - not wrong at all. Makes a ton of sense - just look at how many people have said that they didn't even know their irons carried stronger lofts.

 

[pjcedog]

With changes in head designs moving the CG lower to help get the ball in the air the trade off is that you need less loft and really want less loft to keep the ball from ballooning on the better player and the lesser player benefits from having better results with their slower swing hitting the same club. Club makers want to sell the same clubs to as many different types of players as possible so they can keep making and selling clubs. Pros have adjusted lofts stronger and weaker for many years to suit their swings, there is really no such thing as the correct loft for any club, whatever gets you from tee to green in the fewest strokes possible.

 

[SethO]

I thought the stronger lofts also helped with the higher launching shafts. Yes there are a lot of lower/mid launching shafts but have you looked at the shafts most of these more forgiving (imo the distance irons) are paired with stock?

Lofts have nothing to do with marketing. Distance is marketing. Lofts are never part of the marketing agenda.

I don't quite get what you are saying here TMex. Marketing == Distance I completely agree with. However Irons + Strong Loft = Distance correct?

I do see what you are saying about high launching shafts though. I suppose HL shafts are more forgiving right? and HL shafts with traditional lofts = sky ball correct? So they create a forgiving club with a forgiving shaft with a stronger loft to bring the flight to a manageable level I suppose.

Perhaps it is a win win for the club making companies.

Queue the next 90 posts telling me Im wrong but also keepingin mind they probably wont find one marketing campaign that says, "my lofts are stronger than yours"

You are always wrong man and my MC lofts are stronger than yours with you and your silly CB irons.

 

[Tmex]

I don't quite get what you are saying here TMex. Marketing == Distance I completely agree with. However Irons + Strong Loft = Distance correct?

I do see what you are saying about high launching shafts though. I suppose HL shafts are more forgiving right? and HL shafts with traditional lofts = sky ball correct? So they create a forgiving club with a forgiving shaft with a stronger loft to bring the flight to a manageable level I suppose.

Perhaps it is a win win for the club making companies.



You are always wrong man and my MC lofts are stronger than yours with you and your silly CB irons.

Not really Setho, imo at least. I think people use the term marketing campaign loosely now. If you're talking lofts+distance that's more the R&D not so much the marketing campaign itself. Sure you can incorporate R&D into marketing but its specifically stated then (Rocketballz for example). Find me a marketing campaign that either does one of two things:

1. Users stronger lofts as a selling point (explicitly)
2. Talks about how stronger lofts, equal more distance.

You probably wont find it. Most consumers have no idea what lofts are what and the misconception about stronger lofts is definitely out there.

 

[Tmex]

I was skimming through this thread and your point definitely jumped out at me - not wrong at all. Makes a ton of sense - just look at how many people have said that they didn't even know their irons carried stronger lofts.

Yes! Most people have no clue and don't care lol. A few other good points were made in regards to just knowing what your clubs do as far as distance, strong loft or not.

With changes in head designs moving the CG lower to help get the ball in the air the trade off is that you need less loft and really want less loft to keep the ball from ballooning on the better player and the lesser player benefits from having better results with their slower swing hitting the same club. Club makers want to sell the same clubs to as many different types of players as possible so they can keep making and selling clubs. Pros have adjusted lofts stronger and weaker for many years to suit their swings, there is really no such thing as the correct loft for any club, whatever gets you from tee to green in the fewest strokes possible.

Well said!

 

[SethO]

Not really Setho, imo at least. I think people use the term marketing campaign loosely now. If you're talking lofts+distance that's more the R&D not so much the marketing campaign itself. Sure you can incorporate R&D into marketing but its specifically stated then (Rocketballz for example). Find me a marketing campaign that either does one of two things:

1. Users stronger lofts as a selling point (explicitly)
2. Talks about how stronger lofts, equal more distance.

You probably wont find it. Most consumers have no idea what lofts are what and the misconception about stronger lofts is definitely out there.

I got ya and I actually almost completely agree with you. There is no way they would advertise clubs as having stronger lofts. The bolded part I completely agree with. Most people just see a 9 iron and not a 42º club.

I was using marketing loosely. I envisioned a meeting where they said, "Hey R&D guys, we need a long and forgiving iron." The R&D folks produced an iron that is long because the lofts are stronger. They test it and it is longer by X amount of yards and they, in turn, market that gain in distance, but what has changed? Technology? Definitely a little based on the previous year, but the loft or shaft length? I think that is where they pick up their distance gains in order for them to advertise distance gains.

I guess my thinking is that the marketing people want to say it is longer and the guys who develop the clubs find a way to make it longer. The marketing guys advertise an effect while the R&D guys create the cause.

 

[Tmex]

I got ya and I actually almost completely agree with you. There is no way they would advertise clubs as having stronger lofts. The bolded part I completely agree with. Most people just see a 9 iron and not a 42º club.

I was using marketing loosely. I envisioned a meeting where they said, "Hey R&D guys, we need a long and forgiving iron." The R&D folks produced an iron that is long because the lofts are stronger. They test it and it is longer by X amount of yards and they, in turn, market that gain in distance, but what has changed? Technology? Definitely a little based on the previous year, but the loft or shaft length? I think that is where they pick up their distance gains in order for them to advertise distance gains.

I guess my thinking is that the marketing people want to say it is longer and the guys who develop the clubs find a way to make it longer. The marketing guys advertise an effect while the R&D guys create the cause.

This is also a fantastic point... Who really drives the creation of the product? Sure consumers do... but if its not them who drives it in the company?

 

[Rusty]

Not really Setho, imo at least. I think people use the term marketing campaign loosely now. If you're talking lofts+distance that's more the R&D not so much the marketing campaign itself. Sure you can incorporate R&D into marketing but its specifically stated then (Rocketballz for example). Find me a marketing campaign that either does one of two things:

1. Users stronger lofts as a selling point (explicitly)
2. Talks about how stronger lofts, equal more distance.

You probably wont find it. Most consumers have no idea what lofts are what and the misconception about stronger lofts is definitely out there.

You are right, but you're kind of missing the point. The OEM's don't tell you about the lofts, because they want you to think you are getting more distance out of their club technology alone. They don't say "We have stronger lofts" because that would fail as a marketing campaign: competitors would be telling you the stronger the loft, then the harder it is to hit the ball straight. Instead, they claim to provide extra distance, and some companies even ask you to compare your 6 iron to their 6 iron, but they don't mention that their 6 iron may be 3 or 4 degrees stronger, and come with a longer shaft.

I also don't agree that this has anything at all to do with the higher ball flights that may be available with some equipment. There is no standard height that a 9 iron is supposed to fly. In fact, in a perfect set all of your clubs will reach the same maximum height, they just reach it with different trajectories. Being able to hit a 5 iron higher so that it will land softer, does not suddenly turn that 5 iron into a 6 iron.

 

[Rusty]

Like horsepower sells cars, distance sells golf clubs.

Also, check this out:

i20 irons 24* to 50* = 8 clubs
RBZ irons 23* to 50* = 7 clubs

Pretty cool, now there's an open spot in the bag to buy another club. Sure, most people probably get off the rack 8 club sets. Won't take them long to figure out hitting a RBZ 17.5 degree 3I or 21 degree 4I iron is not easy (depending on where the set starts, 3-P 4-A). Now off to the store to get a RBZ hybrid or a couple woods. TM isn't the only one to do this, they all do it.

It's kind of a win win as well. OEM sells more clubs, player gets more iron coverage with less clubs. Unfortunately, gapping isn't as precise. In my Redline irons I can have 15 yard gaps at times.

Bottom line, it's all about the bottom line.

I really like the gaps Taylormade provides in the RBZs, and I posted that in one of the RBZ threads. Most of us would benefit from larger, less precise yardage gaps in our longer clubs, and using more wedges with precise yardage gaps between each. I just wish Taylormade would have bumped their numbers a little, so that their PW was 50*. Of course, that would have destroyed their whole marketing campaign based on distance.

 

[SethO]

This is also a fantastic point... Who really drives the creation of the product? Sure consumers do... but if its not them who drives it in the company?

I think this is the question behind the question. I think this is why TM is leviathan and Callaway is struggling. They know the secret mixture.

 

[Griff]

I really like the gaps Taylormade provides in the RBZs, and I posted that in one of the RBZ threads. Most of us would benefit from larger, less precise yardage gaps in our longer clubs, and using more wedges with precise yardage gaps between each. I just wish Taylormade would have bumped their numbers a little, so that their PW was 50*. Of course, that would have destroyed their whole marketing campaign based on distance.

It can be a win win for sure. I struggle a little with gapping and my Redlines. Love the raw distance they produce, but it's pretty easy for me to blow away a green or come up short if I'm stuck in the middle. Way more than tighter iron gaps. I was just using RBZ as an example. Same thing applies to a ton of irons out there. Wasn't trying to be negative.

Lot can be said for covering more distance with less irons. Frees a spot in the bag which can be good for golfers and OEMs.

 

[MWard]

It's not all marketing. Technology does have a pretty substantial portion behind it. They keep putting the COG in these game improvement irons lower and lower in order to give the average golfer a higher ball flight. If they kept the loft of a pitching wedge at 50 degrees like it used to be back in the 80's with the same COG, the ball would launch straight up and balloon and go nowhere. In order to give the ball its optimum flight for that club, yet still launch at the angle they want, they have to strengthen the lofts.

 

[Griff]

It's not all marketing. Technology does have a pretty substantial portion behind it. They keep putting the COG in these game improvement irons lower and lower in order to give the average golfer a higher ball flight. If they kept the loft of a pitching wedge at 50 degrees like it used to be back in the 80's with the same COG, the ball would launch straight up and balloon and go nowhere. In order to give the ball its optimum flight for that club, yet still launch at the angle they want, they have to strengthen the lofts.

Perfectly reasonable as well.

 

[dmgolfer]

FWIW: When I got fitted a TMPL the fitter was talking about how the RBZ 6i was longer then most 5i and the longest he has seen I called him on it noting that the loft was similar to my current 5i..he mumbled around the question eventually changing the subject...

 

[Tmex]

You are right, but you're kind of missing the point. The OEM's don't tell you about the lofts, because they want you to think you are getting more distance out of their club technology alone. They don't say "We have stronger lofts" because that would fail as a marketing campaign: competitors would be telling you the stronger the loft, then the harder it is to hit the ball straight. Instead, they claim to provide extra distance, and some companies even ask you to compare your 6 iron to their 6 iron, but they don't mention that their 6 iron may be 3 or 4 degrees stronger, and come with a longer shaft.

I also don't agree that this has anything at all to do with the higher ball flights that may be available with some equipment. There is no standard height that a 9 iron is supposed to fly. In fact, in a perfect set all of your clubs will reach the same maximum height, they just reach it with different trajectories. Being able to hit a 5 iron higher so that it will land softer, does not suddenly turn that 5 iron into a 6 iron.

Im not missing the point. People are stating strong lofts are part of marketing when they're part of design. That's not marketing. Since it would fail as marketing and they arent using it.... why are you saying it is? THEY'RE NOT USING IT lol. They dont need to mention it because its not part of their campaign.

No there isnt a standard ballflight but there is such a think as a bad high ballflight. Its not just loft and shafts that go into iron design.

 

[9-Iron Man]

Not really Setho, imo at least. I think people use the term marketing campaign loosely now. If you're talking lofts+distance that's more the R&D not so much the marketing campaign itself. Sure you can incorporate R&D into marketing but its specifically stated then (Rocketballz for example). Find me a marketing campaign that either does one of two things:

1. Users stronger lofts as a selling point (explicitly)
2. Talks about how stronger lofts, equal more distance.

You probably wont find it. Most consumers have no idea what lofts are what and the misconception about stronger lofts is definitely out there.

The bolded is very true. When I first got my own clubs, my uncle was asking me why I got a 50* wedge instead of a 52 or 53. I told him it was because my PW was 44* and his mind was blown. He still assumed all PW's were around 47* or so. The casual golfer doesn't know or care what the lofts are for each club.

To the question at hand, I think this really boils down to marketing. Having one OEM's club be "longer" than another's is huge. I remember seeing something on the TM site for either the Burner or Burner 2.0 irons saying how much longer they were compared to the competition. From what I recall, they said the TM 7 iron was I think 8 yards longer than my VR 7 iron. The thing is that they didn't say was that the TM was lofted 2* stronger than my Nike. To me it's making club longer without having to really get into detail as to what makes them longer technology wise. The average consumer will be wowed at how much farther they'll be able to hit an iron and brag to their friends. And that sells irons. Ego still plays a HUGE role in this game.

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

It's not all marketing. Technology does have a pretty substantial portion behind it. They keep putting the COG in these game improvement irons lower and lower in order to give the average golfer a higher ball flight. If they kept the loft of a pitching wedge at 50 degrees like it used to be back in the 80's with the same COG, the ball would launch straight up and balloon and go nowhere. In order to give the ball its optimum flight for that club, yet still launch at the angle they want, they have to strengthen the lofts.

I agree. This is nothing new. Been happening for several years.