We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Camilo possible rules violation... Phoned in?

Ole Gray said:
Mo - That is correct however if the person who tweeted this in had not done so, and I honestly don't belive Camilo knew he cheated, then in his mind, did not sign a incorrect score card. I just don't think it's proper for a couch potatoe whether he is a professional golfer, rules commitee chairman for the hobo open, or just a casual fan should affect the outcome of a tournament. Just my personal feelings and I may be wrong, I have been many times.
Click to expand...

I was just as shocked as anyone at the way this went down, I'd never heard of an outside observer calling in to report a violation. I don't really have a problem with it but that could be because Villegas is one of the players I like to root against, I don't know I might feel different if it were AK or Phil. I'd be really enjoying it if somebody called in a penalty on Tiger but I have to wonder if the PGA would have penalized him in the same manner.
 
MO_Hacker said:
I was just as shocked as anyone at the way this went down, I'd never heard of an outside observer calling in to report a violation. I don't really have a problem with it but that could be because Villegas is one of the players I like to root against, I don't know I might feel different if it were AK or Phil. I'd be really enjoying it if somebody called in a penalty on Tiger but I have to wonder if the PGA would have penalized him in the same manner.
Click to expand...

That is a good point and one I brought up earlier. Certainly a fan's bias COULD play a role in phone in rules violations and that is where I have the biggest issue. I would have no issue if this was brought up by any official, or after the round the officials said "we looked at the tape and you must take a 2 stroke penalty", but because it came down after the fact and was DQ'd because of it is where my issue takes place.

BTW, I am not a huge fan of his either.
 
Ole Gray said:
Mo - That is correct however if the person who tweeted this in had not done so, and I honestly don't believe Camilo knew he cheated, then in his mind, did not sign a incorrect score card. I just don't think it's proper for a couch potatoe whether he is a professional golfer, rules commitee chairman for the hobo open, or just a casual fan should affect the outcome of a tournament. Just my personal feelings and I may be wrong, I have been many times.
Click to expand...

So you want them to just be able to get away with anything as long as nobody catches them? That's what I'm reading here. That corrupts the entire idea of a game of honor.
 
I'm still on the fence on the calling in thing. I see pro's and con's for sure. I'm still debating that point with myself right now. With that said, I feel that once the last player is off the course on any day of any event and his card is signed, the results should then be official at that point.
If a breech of rules is reported then, ok but the penalty should only be whatever it would have been at any point during play. For him to be DQ'd is totally wrong I feel. That is bottom line for me.
I then think they need a rule that once something like an hour has passed since the last score was posted than no penalty issues can be reported. To bring something up a day or two later like has happened in the past is screwed up. At some point things have to be official, locked and done.
 
Fourputt said:
So you want them to just be able to get away with anything as long as nobody catches them? That's what I'm reading here. That corrupts the entire idea of a game of honor.
Click to expand...

No sir. I am all for the rules of golf. I am also against someone calling from home making a ruling. I think that is totally disgusting and it should have never been allowed to happen. It should be banned from golf. Like many have said in this thread, this never happens in all the other sports. Why should it happen in golf. The PGA Tour Commisioner, needs to seriously consult with the players board and remove this outlandish piece of cow manure.
 
I remember on incident where a player put a towel under his knees to prevent his pants from getting wet while trying to punch a ball from under a fir tree. I believe it was Andy Bean. Anyways a couch potatoe called in and reported this to a rules official and he was given a two stroke penalty. It was because the golf towel improved his stance or something of the nature. Every since that incident I have been irked with couch jocks altering the outcome of a golf tournament. Andy Bean had no clue using a towel to keep his pants (knees) from getting soaking wet was a rule violation. His playing partner did not either however apparantly the butthead at home googled the rule and make his infamous ruling on Bean who loss the tournament as a result of this.
 
Ole Gray said:
I remember on incident where a player put a towel under his knees to prevent his pants from getting wet while trying to punch a ball from under a fir tree. I believe it was Andy Bean. Anyways a couch potatoe called in and reported this to a rules official and he was given a two stroke penalty. It was because the golf towel improved his stance or something of the nature. Every since that incident I have been irked with couch jocks altering the outcome of a golf tournament. Andy Bean had no clue using a towel to keep his pants (knees) from getting soaking wet was a rule violation. His playing partner did not either however apparantly the butthead at home googled the rule and make his infamous ruling on Bean who loss the tournament as a result of this.
Click to expand...

i think it was craig stadler who put the towel under his knees back in 87
 
Ole Gray said:
No sir. I am all for the rules of golf. I am also against someone calling from home making a ruling. I think that is totally disgusting and it should have never been allowed to happen. It should be banned from golf. Like many have said in this thread, this never happens in all the other sports. Why should it happen in golf. The PGA Tour Commisioner, needs to seriously consult with the players board and remove this outlandish piece of cow manure.
Click to expand...

The point is that the callers aren't making the ruling, they are simply pointing out what they observed. The same thing could be reported by a spectator on the course, and just as untimely. That is what happened to Michelle Wie when she was disquailified for dropping her ball 6" closer to the hole than was allowed. The reporter who made the opservation waited until later that evening to report it, even though he was right on the spot at the time. The tournament committee still has no choice but to investigate the claim presented and take action if such action is indicated. The penalty is not to punish the player but to protect the field from the player gaining an advantage from the infraction.
 
Ole Gray said:
I remember on incident where a player put a towel under his knees to prevent his pants from getting wet while trying to punch a ball from under a fir tree. I believe it was Andy Bean. Anyways a couch potatoe called in and reported this to a rules official and he was given a two stroke penalty. It was because the golf towel improved his stance or something of the nature. Every since that incident I have been irked with couch jocks altering the outcome of a golf tournament. Andy Bean had no clue using a towel to keep his pants (knees) from getting soaking wet was a rule violation. His playing partner did not either however apparantly the butthead at home googled the rule and make his infamous ruling on Bean who loss the tournament as a result of this.
Click to expand...

This may have happened to Bean also but Craig Stadler, in 1997, put a towel down to hit from under a tree. His intention was to keep his pants clean but someone called in saying it was improving his stance. Stadler signed his card without taking the penaly and was then disqualified. I somewhat remember it happening at the time, either saw it or it was all over the media, but in Golf Rules & Etiquette for Dummies it is brought up also.

book says 97 but it could have been 87 per above
 
the walrus was a san diego fan! w00t w00t
 
Fourputt said:
The point is that the callers aren't making the ruling, they are simply pointing out what they observed. The same thing could be reported by a spectator on the course, and just as untimely. That is what happened to Michelle Wie when she was disquailified for dropping her ball 6" closer to the hole than was allowed. The reporter who made the opservation waited until later that evening to report it, even though he was right on the spot at the time. The tournament committee still has no choice but to investigate the claim presented and take action if such action is indicated. The penalty is not to punish the player but to protect the field from the player gaining an advantage from the infraction.
Click to expand...

This is the exact point I think everybody is making. If it is observed and reported, fine, give the person the penalty and move on. But being reported after the fact and DQ'ing resulting because of it, is absurd in my opinion. This goes back to the score card ruling and why it should not be black and white. Nobody disputes the rule being broken, but how it resulted is the issue. If it was penalized on the spot, no issues. If it was penalized the next morning, no issues, as long as the punishment fits the crime. The crime here should not have been the scorecard, just based strictly on timing. Because again, despite the fact that he broke the rules and SHOULD be penalized, had he not been a popular player, he does not get DQ'd.

This is the same argument that Phil M has against the Pro-Am penalty. How can you have a rule that only affects half the field. In this case, the rule is not the issue, but the handling of said rule.
 
I've said my piece

I've said my piece

I am out of here and watching the end of the Hyundai Tournament. It was good that everyone got to voice their opinion and at ya later :thumb:
 
Ole Gray said:
No sir. I am all for the rules of golf. I am also against someone calling from home making a ruling. I think that is totally disgusting and it should have never been allowed to happen. It should be banned from golf. Like many have said in this thread, this never happens in all the other sports. Why should it happen in golf. The PGA Tour Commisioner, needs to seriously consult with the players board and remove this outlandish piece of cow manure.
Click to expand...

I think I'm feeling this way as well. I love golf and I'm all for the rules as well, but I'm leaning towards this as well. It is not allowed in any other sport so why is golf unique. I think I may have landed on one side of the fence on this.
 
JB said:
This is the exact point I think everybody is making. If it is observed and reported, fine, give the person the penalty and move on. But being reported after the fact and DQ'ing resulting because of it, is absurd in my opinion. This goes back to the score card ruling and why it should not be black and white. Nobody disputes the rule being broken, but how it resulted is the issue. If it was penalized on the spot, no issues. If it was penalized the next morning, no issues, as long as the punishment fits the crime. The crime here should not have been the scorecard, just based strictly on timing. Because again, despite the fact that he broke the rules and SHOULD be penalized, had he not been a popular player, he does not get DQ'd.

This is the same argument that Phil M has against the Pro-Am penalty. How can you have a rule that only affects half the field. In this case, the rule is not the issue, but the handling of said rule.
Click to expand...

Also, I think the "protecting the field" argument doesn't hold water. It does not protect the field. It protects the player who doesn't get any tv time.
 
"We" also like to make the point that golfers police themselves as opposed to other sports that have referees, umpires, etc. making the calls. I also think that calls from the audience should be ignored; it is the player on TV who is exposed and the motives of the caller might be in question.

Maybe a referee should be assigned to each player and make such rulings.
 
i have a question...


let's say it wasn't a caller or a twitter post....let's say steve striker went home after his round and watched the replay. and then he showed up for work the next morning and pointed it out to the rules official. what then?

signing an incorrect scorecard is grounds for a DQ.....this isn't a new concept. Villegas is a professional golfer who has to play by the rules of the game. he didn't argue his DQ. that speaks volumes. he's played competitive golf for a loooong time. he gets paid good money to do it. golf is a self policing game that encompass' honor and integrity....either he doesn't know the rules or he doesn't care. both of those situations sit squarely on his shoulders.
 
snicker.doodles said:
i have a question...


let's say it wasn't a caller or a twitter post....let's say steve striker went home after his round and watched the replay. and then he showed up for work the next morning and pointed it out to the rules official. what then?

signing an incorrect scorecard is grounds for a DQ.....this isn't a new concept. Villegas is a professional golfer who has to play by the rules of the game. he didn't argue his DQ. that speaks volumes. he's played competitive golf for a loooong time. he gets paid good money to do it. golf is a self policing game that encompass' honor and integrity....either he doesn't know the rules or he doesn't care. both of those situations sit squarely on his shoulders.
Click to expand...

As in other sports, nothing would change. They would spend the following week discusing the need for instant replay and all of us would way in about it, but the game would go on.

Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab
 
thedue said:
As in other sports, nothing would change. They would spend the following week discusing the need for instant replay and all of us would way in about it, but the game would go on.

Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab
Click to expand...



i should rephrase and ask....


how does that change the perception of the person who turned in the complaint and/or protecting the field?
 
snicker.doodles said:
===== QUOTE thedue ====

As in other sports, nothing would change. They would spend the following week discusing the need for instant replay and all of us would way in about it, but the game would go on.

===== /QUOTE ====





i should rephrase and ask....


how does that change the perception of the person who turned in the complaint and/or protecting the field?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm not completely sure I understand, but who cares about some Duey fellow on the couch at home, he shouldn't be a factor. As far as protecting the field, that's what the ref's are for. Each time it happens they will add more refs and train them better, just my opinion.

Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab
 
someone here said protecting the field wasn't an accurate reason for the DQ. if steve stricker or another player comes forward to point out the infraction....protecting the field is precisely why the rule is in place.


my 2 cents.
 
thedue said:
I guess I'm not completely sure I understand, but who cares about some Duey fellow on the couch at home, he shouldn't be a factor. As far as protecting the field, that's what the ref's are for. Each time it happens they will add more refs and train them better, just my opinion.

Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab
Click to expand...

No, that is not what the rules officials are there for (they aren't "refs" - there are no referees on the course for a stroke play competition). I am a rules official. We are there as a resource for the player to use. We are typically assigned to work a group of holes. We can't possibly see all of the action and that is quite proper, because it is still the players responsibility to Play by the rules. If we happen to observe an incident, only then are we obligated to get involved if necessary. We aren't policemen, we are advisors.
 
Fourputt said:
No, that is not what the rules officials are there for (they aren't "refs"). I am a rules official. We are there as a resource for the player to use. We are typically assigned to work a group of holes. We can't possibly see all of the action and that is quite proper, because it is still the players responsibility to Play by the rules. If we happen to observe an incident then we are obligated to get involved if necessary. We aren't policemen, we are advisors.
Click to expand...

Actually the officials are both. While you may act as an advisor, part of the job is to police the rules. As you said, if an incident is observed, it must be reported.
 
Perhaps that's where a change should be made. The context of this thread is about a couch potatoe being able to ref the tournament. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Posted from my BlackBerry using BerryBlab
 
Perhaps the PGA should hire enough Rules Officials to follow all of the groups at all the tournaments. Cost shouldn't be an issue, they can probably afford it easily. And protecting the field should be a priority, and this would help achieve that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top