Dr Kwon (World Renowned Golf Biomechanics Expert) vs Shawn Clement

[WILDTHING]

Take a look at these new videos that Brendon DeVore (Be Better Golf) published when he visited and talked to Dr Kwon .






Now compare what Dr Kwon was proposing in those videos to these 2 videos by Shawn Clement in 2008/9.







Has it really taken 14 years for the top golf scientists to figure this all out? Lol

 

[nicklongdrive]

Both of them are just coming to the conclusion that power comes from the rotation of the lower body and ground forces, lol.

 

[WILDTHING]

Both of them are just coming to the conclusion that power comes from the rotation of the lower body and ground forces, lol.

Shawn Clement obviously had an intuitive feel about what was happening in a free swinging golf action and how the right hip moves up as the right leg extends a bit in the backswing ,then there is a slight squat and then the left leg extends a bit by mid-downswing.

Dr Kwon seems to be inferring that the backswing is of prime importance and effects what happens in the downswing . Get your backswing correct and that will cure most issues in the downswing .

 

[Arlo]

Take a look at these new videos that Brendon DeVore (Be Better Golf) published when he visited and talked to Dr Kwon .






Now compare what Dr Kwon was proposing in those videos to these 2 videos by Shawn Clement in 2008/9.







Has it really taken 14 years for the top golf scientists to figure this all out? Lol

Stage X video, 10:00 " PULL the weight".
Sounds similiar to Moe Norman's, "horizontal tug" .. another PULLER.
The heavier the weight, the more obvious centrifugal force at 90 degrees to axis of rotation.

 

[Luchnia]

Shawn Clement obviously had an intuitive feel about what was happening in a free swinging golf action and how the right hip moves up as the right leg extends a bit in the backswing ,then there is a slight squat and then the left leg extends a bit by mid-downswing.

Dr Kwon seems to be inferring that the backswing is of prime importance and effects what happens in the downswing . Get your backswing correct and that will cure most issues in the downswing .

I saw these bebettergolf vids with Kwon when they were published the other day and thought they were interesting. One thing I noticed was that Dr. Kwon had the girl working on the step drill with her legs in creating swing speed. I know Brendon is really big into the step move for developing his swing and speed and has made a lot of improvement with his swing. He works with Milo Lines quite a bit among a large group of other instructors over the years.

When reading your statement about getting the back swing correct, I wonder what a "correct" back swing is, especially since it is different for different golfers. What really defines a correct back swing? I think as long as the club returns to where it needs to be for a good strike then that would suffice.

 

[WILDTHING]

I saw these bebettergolf vids with Kwon when they were published the other day and thought they were interesting. One thing I noticed was that Dr. Kwon had the girl working on the step drill with her legs in creating swing speed. I know Brendon is really big into the step move for developing his swing and speed and has made a lot of improvement with his swing. He works with Milo Lines quite a bit among a large group of other instructors over the years.

When reading your statement about getting the back swing correct, I wonder what a "correct" back swing is, especially since it is different for different golfers. What really defines a correct back swing? I think as long as the club returns to where it needs to be for a good strike then that would suffice.

In Dr Kwon's video it seems to be the natural swing you make when doing perpetual continuous swings, nothing contrived or premediated.

Personally , I prefer to have a backswing and downswing that's more 'on plane' where an extension line of the club is more or less tracing out the ball-target line. If you looked at DTL view of the image below , the backswing and downswing plane wouldn't need to be on the same plane (in fact it could move over various inclined planes) but the shaft would still be tracing the ball-target line (see Anthony Kim's images further below). The yellow line is an extension of the clubshaft during his downswing and you can see that the club traverses many inclined planes (ie. it becomes shallower in the early downswing) but the yellow line still traces the ball-target line.






Here is a good article that explains being 'On Plane' quite well.

How to Swing on Plane in Golf | The DIY Golfer

 

[Luchnia]

In Dr Kwon's video it seems to be the natural swing you make when doing perpetual continuous swings, nothing contrived or premediated.

Personally , I prefer to have a backswing and downswing that's more 'on plane' where an extension line of the club is more or less tracing out the ball-target line.

IMO these two things are stand out items.

1. The natural swing you make with doing perpetual continuous swings. Although I think it takes some time to develop this when you actually get into position and strike the ball. To me the actual ball striking never feels exactly the same as just swinging in a natural perpetual continuous swing and somehow striking the ball. I can do perfect practice swings and rarely ever can repeat that against the golf ball.

2. The on plane back and down swing motion. I even found that my absolute best ball strikes are seriously better when I do a swing that is close to a Moe Norman style single plane. The thing is, I keep wanting to bring the handle/grip area of the club head lower and I think that tends to get me off plane some. I know in my mind that the single plane gives me a feel that I am going to miss the ball because my arms are stretched out more on the back swing and down swing and I feel a loss of control. I am sure it is simply a matter of growing the confidence needed. It seems at my age these things are just harder to ingrain in my brain - constant stable repeatability comes into question.

 

[WILDTHING]

IMO these two things are stand out items.

1. The natural swing you make with doing perpetual continuous swings. Although I think it takes some time to develop this when you actually get into position and strike the ball. To me the actual ball striking never feels exactly the same as just swinging in a natural perpetual continuous swing and somehow striking the ball. I can do perfect practice swings and rarely ever can repeat that against the golf ball.

2. The on plane back and down swing motion. I even found that my absolute best ball strikes are seriously better when I do a swing that is close to a Moe Norman style single plane. The thing is, I keep wanting to bring the handle/grip area of the club head lower and I think that tends to get me off plane some. I know in my mind that the single plane gives me a feel that I am going to miss the ball because my arms are stretched out more on the back swing and down swing and I feel a loss of control. I am sure it is simply a matter of growing the confidence needed. It seems at my age these things are just harder to ingrain in my brain - constant stable repeatability comes into question.

I actually do point 1 although I'd prefer to master point 2. The reason why you cannot repeat that natural swing when the ball is in front of you is because the ball becomes your target (in your minds eye). I found it difficult too for many months but then slowly started to retain that 'feel intent' and picture of where I wanted the ball to go in my head when I started my backswing. It's a mental exercise to keep that 'external focus' even for the short time it takes to do the backswing and start the downswing (ie. once the downswing starts - its really too late to fix anything).

Next time your on the range , try and keep that 'picture' in your head but also try to feel how you intend to make that picture happen (it's very difficult to master but don't give up)

 

[LSMO]

I always liked Shawn Clement, never could figure out how to swing like that but sure wish I could!

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

One thing that I really love is ambient sound recorded in a large space that produces echoes! Please people, mic up so that we can hear, and understand, what it is you are saying!

 

[WILDTHING]

One thing that I really love is ambient sound recorded in a large space that produces echoes! Please people, mic up so that we can hear, and understand, what it is you are saying!

Dr Kwon is a biomechanics expert and is developing lots of step drills which he says will help optimise your golf swing and increase clubhead speed. He also suggests that the golfer does continuous free flowing swings back and forth to develop rhythm and a natural backswing . He advised the female LPGA golfer in the above video that the up and down motion of her head should be caused by the up and down motion of the pelvis (ie. the right leg slightly extended in the backswing , then a squat & left leg extension in the downswing) which would help her increase clubhead speed.

The point I am making is Shawn Clement advocated all of this back in 2008/2009 'intuitively' without having all the high technology equipment that Dr Kwon has at is disposal to measure what is happening in PGA pro swings (ie. Mega expensive 3D system, force plates, trackman, etc). It seems that Dr Kwon has now compiled research data that tends to validate some of Shawn Clements 'intuitive' feel based golf instruction. There isn't perfect correlation between him and Dr Kwon because SC still thinks gravity drops the arms/club unit in the early downswing which does not fit with the measured data , but SC is generally on the right track.

 

[Desmond]

Both of them are just coming to the conclusion that power comes from the rotation of the lower body and ground forces, lol.

Don't think so.

Most speed comes from the hands and arms.

Turn your lower body fast - not a lot of speed.

Kwon tells BeBetterGolf to stay closed at the top and swing because if you turn the upper body too soon instead of arms - you won't get good results. I experimented with it over the weekend,

If you get on the front foot, keep shoulders closed and swing arms, you get good results and the body will rotate because of the swing - you can't have the chicken before the egg.

 

[Arlo]

Dr Kwon is a biomechanics expert and is developing lots of step drills which he says will help optimise your golf swing and increase clubhead speed. He also suggests that the golfer does continuous free flowing swings back and forth to develop rhythm and a natural backswing . He advised the female LPGA golfer in the above video that the up and down motion of her head should be caused by the up and down motion of the pelvis (ie. the right leg slightly extended in the backswing , then a squat & left leg extension in the downswing) which would help her increase clubhead speed.

The point I am making is Shawn Clement advocated all of this back in 2008/2009 'intuitively' without having all the high technology equipment that Dr Kwon has at is disposal to measure what is happening in PGA pro swings (ie. Mega expensive 3D system, force plates, trackman, etc). It seems that Dr Kwon has now compiled research data that tends to validate some of Shawn Clements 'intuitive' feel based golf instruction. There isn't perfect correlation between him and Dr Kwon because SC still thinks gravity drops the arms/club unit in the early downswing which does not fit with the measured data , but SC is generally on the right track.

Dr Kwan seems to be rehashing the "tilting" of the spine and sliding of hips as Mike Austin taught years ago. The genesis of "stack and tilt"

As if, force plates, can possibly explain the 10 million years of evolution of the human , into the most sophisticated machine in the universe





It's a Weight Shift (Spine Tilt) and a Hip Turn - Mike Austin Method - YouTube

 

[Arlo]

Don't think so.

Most speed comes from the hands and arms.

Turn your lower body fast - not a lot of speed.

Kwon tells BeBetterGolf to stay closed at the top and swing because if you turn the upper body too soon instead of arms - you won't get good results. I experimented with it over the weekend,

If you get on the front foot, keep shoulders closed and swing arms, you get good results and the body will rotate because of the swing - you can't have the chicken before the egg.

Expanding on, "most speed comes from the hands and arms"

Most clubhead speed, comes from the exchange of arcs of the hands.

At address the arc of right hand is larger than the arc of the left hand(holding the butt end of the club)
At top of the BS, there has been an exchange of those arcs
eg Jamie Sadlowski) with arc of left hand larger(so called width) than the arc of the right hand.
As exchange of arcs in DS is delayed, as "loop" reaches impact...exchange of arcs whips around in a tight circle...as in tip of a bull whip:

"When the loop reaches the end, it is going extremely fast and causes the very tip to 'whip' around in a tight circle. It is at this point that the tip exceeds the speed necessary to create a tiny shock wave in the air "
Bull whip dynamics proves Conservation of Momentum,... translates to the kinematic sequence in golf ie deceleration of proximal to distal.


1:27 arc of left hand is larger than arc of right hand at top of BS

 

[JonMA1]

Don't think so.

Most speed comes from the hands and arms.

Turn your lower body fast - not a lot of speed.

Kwon tells BeBetterGolf to stay closed at the top and swing because if you turn the upper body too soon instead of arms - you won't get good results. I experimented with it over the weekend,

If you get on the front foot, keep shoulders closed and swing arms, you get good results and the body will rotate because of the swing - you can't have the chicken before the egg.

Not sure anyway is saying all or most speed comes from the lower body. I think it’s more a case that many of us will never obtain our potential for club head speed without making improvements with our lower body. Whether it’s a 80/20 or 70/30 upper body to lower body ratio seems irrelevant to me. If the intent is to improve club head speed, there is some power to be had (for many of us) in proper lower body sequencing improvements. At least that’s my take on all of the discussion.

 

[blugold]

Expanding on, "most speed comes from the hands and arms"

Most clubhead speed, comes from the exchange of arcs of the hands.

At address the arc of right hand is larger than the arc of the left hand(holding the butt end of the club)
At top of the BS, there has been an exchange of those arcs (in efficient golf swings..

I mean, sure. But speed mostly comes from exchanging of arcs done really fast. Clubhead speed isn't just a technique trick.

 

[Arlo]

I mean, sure. But speed mostly comes from exchanging of arcs done really fast. Clubhead speed isn't just a technique trick.

It is about understanding the physics and physiology and letting the physics, generate the exchange of arcs... REALLY FAST.


Getting our left hand arc further away from our body center, than the right hand arc in the BS, happens in time frame, slow enough for it to be a conscious effort, assuming flexibility and knowledge of our physiology to protract the left scapula.

No one is able to control their hands, consciously in real time once the DS has begun.
DS is a preprogram in the subconscious initiated by intention
allowing genetics and physics to happen.

Just as our hands come to rest at our sides(called Tonus) the same everytime.. if we let them
the right hand on the golf club will come to impact further from our body than the left hand,(as they started at address) if we let them.
Thats the technique... knowledge combined with physics....only appears magical, "a trick" if you dont apply the knowledge.

For those who dont have or dont apply the knowledge*, they think clubhead speed must be generated by the lower body, by bigger upper body muscles, or even jumping up. LOL

* thanks to G Hogan for doing the research, "dug it out of the dirt"

 

[blugold]

For those who dont have or dont apply the knowledge, they think clubhead speed must be generated by the lower body, by bigger upper body muscles, or even jumping up. LOL

Has anybody made the claim that speed comes from jumping?

 

[Arlo]

Has anybody made the claim that speed comes from jumping?

nice change of subject... like magic, slight of hand!

and just for you, B.. more biomechanical, magic
"One of the secrets of power in the golf swing"

 

[WILDTHING]

Dr Kwan seems to be rehashing the "tilting" of the spine and sliding of hips as Mike Austin taught years ago. The genesis of "stack and tilt"

As if, force plates, can possibly explain the 10 million years of evolution of the human , into the most sophisticated machine in the universe

Interesting video by Mike Austin and the lower and upper body movements looks very similar to Colin Montgomerie's golf swing.

 

[WILDTHING]

Don't think so.

Most speed comes from the hands and arms.

Turn your lower body fast - not a lot of speed.

Kwon tells BeBetterGolf to stay closed at the top and swing because if you turn the upper body too soon instead of arms - you won't get good results. I experimented with it over the weekend,

If you get on the front foot, keep shoulders closed and swing arms, you get good results and the body will rotate because of the swing - you can't have the chicken before the egg.

Here is an interesting video where Sasho MacKenzie touches on this subject and several others on generation of clubhead speed



Check out these specific sections of the video

02:30 - 6:04 - What good things Sasho sees in Brysons new swing that is leading to his big increase in clubhead speed
06:30 - 08:00 - How creating a separation between COP (Centre Of Pressure) and COM (Centre of Mass) can get angular momentum into the golfer-club system.
09:30 -17:20 - flexed trail leg vs extended trail leg
17:25 -24:20 - Flexed wrist angle moving in the extension direction going into impact
27:36 - 31:15 - Ground reaction forces to create 'connected' pelvic & upper body ' rotation using the stretch shorten cycle (ie. no slack)

 

[blugold]

nice change of subject... like magic, slight of hand!

and just for you, B.. more biomechanical, magic
"One of the secrets of power in the golf swing"

I honestly don't know how you can. R presented with that data and still maintain the "dominant hands" theory.

I do think the lower body has too much of an emphasis on modern golf instruction. I do think there is a huge difference between maximizing distance and fine-tuning consistency.

 

[Arlo]

I honestly don't know how you can. R presented with that data and still maintain the "dominant hands" theory.

I do think the lower body has too much of an emphasis on modern golf instruction. I do think there is a huge difference between maximizing distance and fine-tuning consistency.

What body parts hasnt Sasho at one time or another proclaimed is responsible for the power in the golf swing?

There are charlatans looking to get more, "LIKES".
TPI is very disappointing. No different from the others.

No wonder golfers are so confused.
Too lazy or dumb to do their own research, they think watching video is educational
when its simply , massive differences of opinion, from so called experts who are simply trying to make a living
selling their opinions.

It is so bad, its come to the point, when we can only believe those who have nothing monetary to gain.

 

[nicklongdrive]

What body parts hasnt Sasho at one time or another proclaimed is responsible for the power in the golf swing?

There are charlatans looking to get more, "LIKES".
TPI is very disappointing. No different from the others.

No wonder golfers are so confused.
Too lazy or dumb to do their own research, they think watching video is educational
when its simply , massive differences of opinion, from so called experts who are simply trying to make a living
selling their opinions.

It is so bad, its come to the point, when we can only believe those who have nothing monetary to gain.

I tend to agree, everyone has a "system" they sell and it really comes down to utilizing the entire body to produce force. If you don't then you aren't maximizing clubhead speed, end of story. At the end of the day, some people's bodies work better in some ways than others and will produce varied results if you focus on one area too heavily versus another.

 

[Arlo]

I tend to agree, everyone has a "system" they sell and it really comes down to utilizing the entire body to produce force. If you don't then you aren't maximizing clubhead speed, end of story. At the end of the day, some people's bodies work better in some ways than others and will produce varied results if you focus on one area too heavily versus another.

Some are not selling anything. ie nothing to gain, monetarily.