Overly difficult hole

[blugold]

Last night I was in a very heated discussion with a friend regarding hole design. It started when I said that I thought that a 420 yard par 4 was too long. I was accused of being a pansy and a complainer. He said, "420, you need a good 250 yard driver, then you have 170." 5 iron for him. He said that a hole that is driver/pitching wedge is just as difficult because you can still miss the green with the wedge. I had to say that although possible to miss the green with a PW, it was a lot less likely, even for a 16+ handicap.

His response was, "If you want par on a 420 yard par 4, then you need to hit 2 really good shots and two putt. Which is fair." I said he was nuts. I told him that the green better be accepting and not protected by bunkers or water.

My friend asked, "Why wouldn't you want to play a course that's a challenge?" I said that I didn't want to have to be going driver/5iron on more than one par 4 a round. Because it would get old having to scramble for bogey and double every hole.

What are you opinions on courses/holes that are overly difficult. Does it get tiring? Is a difficult course more or less likely to get your repeat business?

 

[#Cookie]

Personally, I think it is a nice change of pace to have some longer par 4's in there. I was playing the back tees last night just to get a different perspective and hit some shots I normally would not be able to and had a 418 par 4. Into the wind but still crushed a 3w 220 into it leaving me 200 to the green. Hit a solid 3 iron that left me short left and I chipped on and 2 putted for par.

I did not think it was overly difficult but rather a nice change of pace instead of tee shot - 8/9/PW every par 4.

If I did find a course overly difficult I would not play it often but would definitely keep it in the mix to really challenge myself.

 

[blugold]

Personally, I think it is a nice change of pace to have some longer par 4's in there. I was playing the back tees last night just to get a different perspective and hit some shots I normally would not be able to and had a 418 par 4. Into the wind but still crushed a 3w 220 into it leaving me 200 to the green. Hit a solid 3 iron that left me short left and I chipped on and 2 putted for par.

I'm going to be "that guy". How did you get a par on a par 4, with 5 shots.

 

[Anders73]

My personal opinion is you should need at least a 7i or 8i for your 2nd shot into most Par 4's with the odd 1 or 2 that if the wind is right and the course fast that you can almost rag a driver onto the front

Driver then wedge is just a bit easy, no?

 

[#Cookie]

I'm going to be "that guy". How did you get a par on a par 4, with 5 shots.

Doh - that was a mistype! My bad...meant bogey but it was a challenge and something different. Hopefully you understood the context of my post and the thought behind it and not just the scoring error. :act-up:

 

[One-T]

I dont think 420 is overly difficult. Not every par 4 is 420, courses are designed for you to hit all the clubs in you rbag. Hence the reason there are 14 of them.

 

[bgammill]

I dont think 420 is overly difficult. Not every par 4 is 420, courses are designed for you to hit all the clubs in you rbag. Hence the reason there are 14 of them.

I agree. I don't think a hole 420 is that long of a par 4. I love a course that is going to challenge me and be fun at the same time.


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[arydolphin]

I don't mind a couple of really demanding holes on a course, as long as there are also some holes that play easier and give you a good shot at birdie. It's the concept of "half par" holes. Some long par 3's and long par 4's play more like par 3.5 or par 4.5 holes, whereas short par 4's or reachable par 5's can be looked at as holes that play a half stroke under par. On one of the courses that I like to play, the longest par 3 (190-200 yards from where I play) is followed by a reachable par 5, so if you drop a shot or 2 on the par 3, you can make it up on the next hole. That's a nice balance for me.

One other thing: If you're playing a course where you are hitting a bunch of shots with clubs higher than 5-iron for your approach shots after a good drive or you're having to consistently hit woods on long par 3's, that's a sign that you need to move up a set of tees, no matter what the yardage on the scorecard reads.

 

[blugold]

Doh - that was a mistype! My bad...meant bogey but it was a challenge and something different. Hopefully you understood the context of my post and the thought behind it and not just the scoring error. :act-up:

I just read your post, and I was confused. Looked like some of my playing partner's math.

I don't want this to be a discussion on "which tee should you play." but a driver 5-iron into a par 4 on more than one occasion sounds like the course is trying to be difficult soley based on length. Which to me would get old quick.

 

[Fairway2Green]

Personally, I like par 4s to be in the 400-460 range. I like to play with buddies for some money and anything under 400 ends up being driver wedge most of the time on open courses. After saying that though, the 3 courses I play most often are all Donald Ross courses and he can make a sub 400 yard par 4 difficult with fairway bunkers, trees, and his damn green complexes. I'd say for me I consider it a long par 4 if it's over 450. But, that's the reason there are different tee boxes. Let your buddy play it from 420 and you play it from a tee your comfortable with.


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[MikeF]

Heck any given hole on a course can play easy or difficult. It all depends on how you are playing and conditions

Many a time I have made pars on longer par 4's and worse on shorter ones


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[blugold]

Personally, I like par 4s to be in the 400-460 range. I like to play with buddies for some money and anything under 400 ends up being driver wedge most of the time on open courses. After saying that though, the 3 courses I play most often are all Donald Ross courses and he can make a sub 400 yard par 4 difficult with fairway bunkers, trees, and his damn green complexes. I'd say for me I consider it a long par 4 if it's over 450. But, that's the reason there are different tee boxes. Let your buddy play it from 420 and you play it from a tee your comfortable with.

My buddy is shorter than I am. My point is not the yardage of the hole, just the necessary clubs on the hole. My point was that driver/5-iron is a really long par 4 for us mid-high handicappers.

 

[Aaronthehack]

One of the courses I play has a par 4 440 yards and I have gotten par maybe twice. It's a very difficult hole but I like it. It's a dogleg right, if you can get to where the fairway starts to bend its about 170-180 to and uphill green. With my best drive the shortest club I have used for my 2nd shot was a 6i. Long hole but a fun one too.

 

[One-T]

I just read your post, and I was confused. Looked like some of my playing partner's math.

I don't want this to be a discussion on "which tee should you play." but a driver 5-iron into a par 4 on more than one occasion sounds like the course is trying to be difficult soley based on length. Which to me would get old quick.

Man, I hate to say this...but if your hitting a Driver, 5 iron into a 420 yard par 4 then it does come down to a discussion of playing the wrong tees. I know you dont want it to be about that but...call a spade a spade.

 

[JR]

Long par 4s are much better than par 5s that dogleg severely. On my course, one requires a 7 off the tee, a 7/8 up a 80 foot bank, and a 7/8 into a bunker guarded green.

 

[Fairway2Green]

I just read your post, and I was confused. Looked like some of my playing partner's math.

I don't want this to be a discussion on "which tee should you play." but a driver 5-iron into a par 4 on more than one occasion sounds like the course is trying to be difficult soley based on length. Which to me would get old quick.

It's kind of hard to not make it a discussion about tees though because everyone hits different distances. You say a 420 yard par 4 is driver 5 iron. One of my home courses has a hole that's exactly 420 and my playing partner goes 3 iron off the tee with an 8 or 9 iron in every time. That's why there are different sets of tees.


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[arydolphin]

I just read your post, and I was confused. Looked like some of my playing partner's math.

I don't want this to be a discussion on "which tee should you play." but a driver 5-iron into a par 4 on more than one occasion sounds like the course is trying to be difficult soley based on length. Which to me would get old quick.

A hole isn't just difficult solely because of length. Give me a 420 yard par 4 all day long that has a wide fairway and an opening at the front of the green as compared to a 380 yard par 4 that has water all the way down the left side of the fairway with heavy rough on the right and 3 bunkers surrounding a small green. The second hole that I described is the 17th hole at a course that I play regularly, it's the hardest hole on that course.

Another question: what do you think about a hole that isn't as long, but forces you to hit a longer approach shot because of the way the hole is designed? For example, having a fairway end with heavy rough or a water hazard at 160-170 yards out, forcing you to hit something less than driver off of the tee but then have a longer approach shot. I'm not a big fan of those holes.

 

[blugold]

It's not a driver/5 for me. It is for him. I just had to say that a course that has most par 4s that require a perfect driver and a perfect mid to long iron, would get old and I wouldn't want to play it.

 

[blugold]

Another question: what do you think about a hole that isn't as long, but forces you to hit a longer approach shot because of the way the hole is designed? For example, having a fairway end with heavy rough or a water hazard at 160-170 yards out, forcing you to hit something less than driver off of the tee but then have a longer approach shot. I'm not a big fan of those holes.

As long as there is another easier hole somewhere on the course.

 

[Fairway2Green]

It's not a driver/5 for me. It is for him. I just had to say that a course that has most par 4s that require a perfect driver and a perfect mid to long iron, would get old and I wouldn't want to play it.

What about switching up tees throughout the round to avoid that? I've done this before and it's actually pretty fun.


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[thedue]

A lot of it comes down to how they mix up the yardages and risk reward shots. 420 yards is standardly too long for me to have a chance at birdie and I have to work hard just to par, but my guess is that holes is the #1 handicap hole of the course and they make up for it with a few resonable birdie holes.

The main course I play has its #1 hc hole 424 yards par 4, very tight with native grass on the left, timber right, a ditch down the middle to catch the long drive guys and ob long right to catch second shots. But, the very next hole is a 377 yard par 4 thats straight as a string and generally has the wind at your back. The toughest hole out there for me is a 277 yard par 4. Big dog leg that is reachable for many people over the trees, but with a pond in front and ob behind the tiny green, it can be a hand full.

 

[BulldogsGolf]

I like longer par 4s. they Challenge me! Just during my tournaments this summer, some par 4s I've played have been: 461, 453, and 430 just to name a few. My home course plays 6200 yards and some of these are playing 6800-6900. In short, I like a challenging course with challenging holes because I believe it makes you a better player overall.

BulldogsGolf

 

[dtak84]

Instead of saying "try different tees", look at it as if there was only one tee box, or even the shortest tees had all long par 4's. For your original question blugold, I would actually enjoy a course that was that long relative to my length.

I deal with the opposite scenario, and most of the time have driver/3w off the tee and a wedge/short iron in. That actually gets a little dull sometimes and wouldn't mind a course that is a little longer while also readily available.

 

[mhuelsman131]

I deal with the opposite scenario, and most of the time have driver/3w off the tee and a wedge/short iron in. That actually gets a little dull sometimes and wouldn't mind a course that is a little longer while also readily available.

this is my course as well. Plays 6339 from the back tees and most of the holes are tight and fairly short. I find myself hitting more 6 irons off the tee to mix it up a bit.

 

[Fairway2Green]

Instead of saying "try different tees", look at it as if there was only one tee box, or even the shortest tees had all long par 4's.

Look at it as an imaginary course? I don't understand that. There are no courses with one set of tees and all par 4s play over 420, or courses with nothing but 420+ par 4s from the shortest tees. Obviously those courses would fail and be closed up, because not many people have the length to play a course like that. So instead of saying the logical "try different tees" go with the illogical and consider a course that doesn't exist? Seems like odd reasoning to me.


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