What are the signs of a bad Instructor?

[wadesworld]

I've been to many -- I don't know what to say but video and Porzak Golf - spend $500

Avoid

They do not explain the steps in their instruction - they need to give an overview.
They try to make you look like a pro right off the bat
They don't take video
They have no swing monitor ie something like Trackman
They say "swing left" but do not explain how and what that means.
They don't explain swing path.
They don't tell you that your body may be too stiff for certain moves (they don't suggest flexibility exercises or a book)
They do not explain in detail the grip, posture, feet, ball position.
They do not explain backswing and various movements, and then downswing and its movements, or they try to do too much at once.
They do not look at your clubs and see if they fit.
They say "P1", "P6" etc. right off the bat.
They don't ask you what you want out of the game.


Oh, there is a whole lot more...

Having taken lessons from both Adam Porzak and Mike Pitt, I would disagree whole-heartedly. They're very expensive and certainly not for everyone, but I have personal experience that contradicts nearly every point. That said, not everyone likes the same thing so I certainly wouldn't keep spending that kind of money with them if they're not what you want.

 

[Louis_Posture]

A competent instructor spends lots of time on grip technique.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I have gone to a couple lessons and never had an awful experience (except for when I was a fool and tried golftec for a day). My buddy has been in lessons for a while (2 months) and has not improved at all. I expected initial growing pains for him, but it seems like the instructor is trying to build him into a swing and not build a swing for him. He's not the most athletic guy and the tips he's sharing are tiger-esq swing moved. It got me thinking... Have you ever had a lesson with a bad instructor? What were somethings that raised red flags?

The worst I’ve had teach to the prototypical swing, not what the pupil can physically do. The use their words for their prototypical swing, not words that have meaning to the pupil.

 

[wadesworld]

I have a bit of a unique perspective having taken lessons from several golf coaches of YouTube fame, plus a Skillest coach of some reknown, plus several local guys.

I'll say this: changing a golf swing is HARD. Far harder than most of us amateurs can fathom, and I'm still learning just how hard. "I just want him to work with what I have." Great. Are you willing to take 6 months of work and thousands of reps for one simple change? Most people are not. Most people go to a couple lessons, hit the range a couple times and just hit balls, and then decide the instructor must be bad because they haven't improved.

I've been working on my takeaway for more than a year, and I'm NOT exaggerating. Today my coach was pleased with my progress. He estimates we're 40% better.

Bad coaches definitely exist, but if what you want is a quick fix, they can give you some advice but it's not going to stick. You will go back to your old patterns immediately without reps, reps, and more reps.

I do think you can stagnate with a coach and a fresh perspective can be helpful. I've had things that multiple coaches have tried to get me to see and it was only after about the 4th coach that something finally triggered in my brain to make me see what had been in front of me the whole time.

I would agree one big red flag would be if the coach talks too much. It's hard to listen to your student and take things in if your mouth is constantly running. That's not to say they have to be totally silent, but you should be able to tell the difference between them having something to important/relevant to say and trying to compensate for what they don't know or being insecure.

(Note I'm sure there are some of you who break the mold and can pick up new concepts and implement them immediately. However, I think I'm much closer to the average golfer than not.)

 

[blugold]

I have a bit of a unique perspective having taken lessons from several golf coaches of YouTube fame, plus a Skillest coach of some reknown, plus several local guys.

I'll say this: changing a golf swing is HARD. Far harder than most of us amateurs can fathom, and I'm still learning just how hard. "I just want him to work with what I have." Great. Are you willing to take 6 months of work and thousands of reps for one simple change? Most people are not. Most people go to a couple lessons, hit the range a couple times and just hit balls, and then decide the instructor must be bad because they haven't improved.

I've been working on my takeaway for more than a year, and I'm NOT exaggerating. Today my coach was pleased with my progress. He estimates we're 40% better.

Bad coaches definitely exist, but if what you want is a quick fix, they can give you some advice but it's not going to stick. You will go back to your old patterns immediately without reps, reps, and more reps.

I do think you can stagnate with a coach and a fresh perspective can be helpful. I've had things that multiple coaches have tried to get me to see and it was only after about the 4th coach that something finally triggered in my brain to make me see what had been in front of me the whole time.

I would agree one big red flag would be if the coach talks too much. It's hard to listen to your student and take things in if your mouth is constantly. That's not to say they have to be totally silent, but you should be able to tell the difference between them having something to say and trying to compensate for what they don't know or being insecure.

(Note I'm sure there are some of you who break the mold and can pick up new concepts and implement them immediately. However, I think I'm much closer to the average golfer than not.)

One of the the things I'm very thankful for is the off season. I get to spend a few months every year NOT playing golf, so I get to practice. Identify issues at the end of the previous season I want to tackle, then spend the next 5 months working on it. It's great. Winter is process focused, summer is result driven.

 

[MacTourney]

One of the the things I'm very thankful for is the off season. I get to spend a few months every year NOT playing golf, so I get to practice. Identify issues at the end of the previous season I want to tackle, then spend the next 5 months working on it. It's great. Winter is process focused, summer is result driven.

Same here, taking a winter break from many miles of summer course walking is nice, but brisk walking during off season when weather allows is a must for me too. Spent this winter chipping and it was worth time spent- the other day it was like throwing darts into the center ring.

 

[Desmond]

Having taken lessons from both Adam Porzak and Mike Pitt, I would disagree whole-heartedly. They're very expensive and certainly not for everyone, but I have personal experience that contradicts nearly every point. That said, not everyone likes the same thing so I certainly wouldn't keep spending that kind of money with them if they're not what you want.

You don't like my "Avoid" section? I think that's standard.

I can imagine some don't like Porzack. I would not go to him but like some vids.

I've been to well known instructors, including Kuchar's in his heyday (Dennis), and did not enjoy the instruction and left after a month of lessons. I went to Haney's main people for several years. It took several years to get rid of everything wrong. I still have the in to out path they like in excess unless I think "cut."

One instructor won't work for everyone.

As to Porzack, some of his YouTube vids do a lot of good ... for me. But having taken many lessons from several instructors, I also know what he's trying to do. I take some of it but not all of it. I also look at Pete Cowen's vids - I found 2-3 vids that really helped me. I have a base. I know my primary issue(s). I use video on the range. It all helps.

I know finding a good instructor with whom you resonate is extremely difficult. Hey, even pro instructors are baffled when they make students a lot of money but then the student leaves for "the grass is greener" instructor. Does it work? Sometimes. But then they look for another... same as all of us.

 

[Sean]

trying to build him into a swing and not build a swing for him.

This. A lot of people, especially seniors, don't have the range of motion some of these swings require. The swing should be built around the golfer, not the golfer around the swing. For example, comparing my swing to a PGAT professional is pretty much useless.

 

[JonMA1]

I am a poor student and have experienced both quality and poor instruction.

In describing myself as a poor student, it has nothing to do with not wanting to change, or a desire to "swing my crappy swing", or any lack of drive and work ethic to improve. I simply have trouble understanding, feeling, or making the slightest change. And when I'm able to make a change, it's been difficult to repeat it. And finally, when I'm able to repeat the change, embedding that change to the point where it becomes natural has not been next to impossible.

That said, I've gone to great lengths to communicate this to instructors before we agree to work together. I communicate my modest expectations of the level of improvement I'm hoping to achieve. Basically, it's an extreme take on not letting perfect be the the enemy of better. Under perfect conditions of the best instruction in the world, the best fitted equipment, and all the time in the world to play and practice, I'm never going to get to low double-digits golf... not in a million years.

So the question becomes "Can you help me to play bogey golf by developing a simple, body friendly swing that'll help me make decent enough contact most of the time and keep the ball in front of me?" If the answer is "no", I ask that they please not take me on as a student. If the answer is "yes", I'll work my tail off to accomplish what they ask of me.

In describing a poor instruction, it's basically anyone who ignores the above information and uses their cookie cutter method on me as they would a student with considerably more potential, describing what PGA pros do and how I should emulate their swings. Unfortunately, I've had a few of those.

I've also had instructors who have grasped the reality that not all students are created the same. They kept the instruction simple, the goals modest, and I experienced improvement as a result.

 

[MacTourney]

That said, I've gone to great lengths to communicate this to instructors before we agree to work together. I communicate my modest expectations of the level of improvement I'm hoping to achieve. Basically, it's an extreme take on not letting perfect be the the enemy of better.

One of my favorites: "Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." Vince Lombardi

 

[JonMA1]

One of my favorites: "Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." Vince Lombardi

Not sure what your version of perfection is, but I’m going to guess it is something different than mine.
I chase better every time I step on the golf course or practice range.

 

[Reframmellator]

I have gone to a couple lessons and never had an awful experience (except for when I was a fool and tried golftec for a day). My buddy has been in lessons for a while (2 months) and has not improved at all. I expected initial growing pains for him, but it seems like the instructor is trying to build him into a swing and not build a swing for him. He's not the most athletic guy and the tips he's sharing are tiger-esq swing moved. It got me thinking... Have you ever had a lesson with a bad instructor? What were somethings that raised red flags?

That's the leading sign IMO. Actually drove my son from the game for about ten years.

 

[razaar]

Who is the baddie in this scenario?
This pupil rotates his hips incorrectly during the backswing. His trail hip is the door hinge with the target hip rotating towards the ball/target line.
Instructor 1 spends the full lesson trying to help the pupil to rotate his hip turn with the target hip being the door hinge and the trail hip rotating away from the ball/target line. Telling the golfer that this move is crucial to future lessons.
Instructor 2 ignores the players hip turn and moves on to build a swing for the golfer.

 

[JonMA1]

Who is the baddie in this scenario?
This pupil rotates his hips incorrectly during the backswing. His trail hip is the door hinge with the target hip rotating towards the ball/target line.
Instructor 1 spends the full lesson trying to help the pupil to rotate his hip turn with the target hip being the door hinge and the trail hip rotating away from the ball/target line. Telling the golfer that this move is crucial to future lessons.
Instructor 2 ignores the players hip turn and moves on to build a swing for the golfer.

In my uneducated opinion, if the poor hip turn was the basis of a lot of other problems, that would be the first and only thing I’d have my student work on until they reached a level of competence - even if that took weeks or longer. Once that was improved upon, I’d attack the 2nd biggest issue, and so on.

 

[razaar]

In my uneducated opinion, if the poor hip turn was the basis of a lot of other problems, that would be the first and only thing I’d have my student work on until they reached a level of competence - even if that took weeks or longer. Once that was improved upon, I’d attack the 2nd biggest issue, and so on.

The pupil learned this hip action from instruction books that empathized keeping the weight on the inside of the trail foot during the backswing and shifting the weight across to the target foot early in the downswing. He reasons WTF is the pro talking about given he is doing exactly what instruction books say to do? Millions of golfers have made it to single figures with this hip action.

 

[Slot708]

The ones who talk like they are smartest guys in the room.Than you ask them to demonstrate and you get crickets

 

[alistaird]

In my uneducated opinion, if the poor hip turn was the basis of a lot of other problems, that would be the first and only thing I’d have my student work on until they reached a level of competence - even if that took weeks or longer. Once that was improved upon, I’d attack the 2nd biggest issue, and so on.

The pupil learned this hip action from instruction books that empathized keeping the weight on the inside of the trail foot during the backswing and shifting the weight across to the target foot early in the downswing. He reasons WTF is the pro talking about given he is doing exactly what instruction books say to do? Millions of golfers have made it to single figures with this hip action.

This discussion is interesting... Like most I've had good and not so good instructors. When I was younger I had an instructor who asked whether I wanted to get a bit better or a lot better... We went down the later route but moved away before I got to where I wanted to but this was a significant swing re-build that I was happy to undertake.

But the above is I think based on do you want to tweak what you've got to get a bit better and see results relatively quickly or do you want to give yourself the best chance of reaching your ultimate potential? That is a very important discussion to have with your instructor and I think should be the basis of good teaching. When I was younger I relied upon very good face control through strong wrists and arms and very good hand to eye co-ordination from years of racquet sports. This enabled me to hit the ball a long way with long irons (not woods or driver) but I could hit a 4i further than I hit driver today and more consistently. But there is no way I can re-produce that swing now.

So in answer the question about the two options

Who is the baddie in this scenario?
This pupil rotates his hips incorrectly during the backswing. His trail hip is the door hinge with the target hip rotating towards the ball/target line.
Instructor 1 spends the full lesson trying to help the pupil to rotate his hip turn with the target hip being the door hinge and the trail hip rotating away from the ball/target line. Telling the golfer that this move is crucial to future lessons.
Instructor 2 ignores the players hip turn and moves on to build a swing for the golfer.

I think it depends on what your aims are as a pupil and how quickly you want to get there, coupled with your natural ability to hit the ball.

Just my 2c worth...

A

 

[1860VS]

Not recognizing people as unique individuals with unique swings. There arent very many "textbook" swings out there, with all the arbitrary points on the diagram hit.

 

[RecGolfer]

First of all, give the instructor a clear idea of what you want to have fixed or to learn how to do. Without that information, an instructor's job is that much harder. And it might take more than one lesson to get the problem fixed. You can only learn a step at a time. And you have to practice what you were taught. IOW, don't blame the instructor for your failings.

But the real test is, are you hitting the ball better at the end of the lesson than you were at the start? Not perfect, but better. Unless you are completely helpless, a good instructor will get you there.

 

[razaar]

This discussion is interesting... Like most I've had good and not so good instructors. When I was younger I had an instructor who asked whether I wanted to get a bit better or a lot better... We went down the later route but moved away before I got to where I wanted to but this was a significant swing re-build that I was happy to undertake.

But the above is I think based on do you want to tweak what you've got to get a bit better and see results relatively quickly or do you want to give yourself the best chance of reaching your ultimate potential? That is a very important discussion to have with your instructor and I think should be the basis of good teaching. When I was younger I relied upon very good face control through strong wrists and arms and very good hand to eye co-ordination from years of racquet sports. This enabled me to hit the ball a long way with long irons (not woods or driver) but I could hit a 4i further than I hit driver today and more consistently. But there is no way I can re-produce that swing now.

So in answer the question about the two options



I think it depends on what your aims are as a pupil and how quickly you want to get there, coupled with your natural ability to hit the ball.

Just my 2c worth...

A

The baddie in this example is the pro who ignores the players hip turn. This type of hip turn is not safe and can lead to back injuries.

 

[Buckeyegolfnut]

A competent instructor spends lots of time on grip technique.

I once saw a video clip, a long time ago, about a black golf instructor who was teaching black kids how to play golf. He would give them grips on cut off shafts. Not whole clubs! Just grips! That's how important he felt the grip was to a proper golf swing. I've heard many more than one instructor say that the grip is the most important thing since it is your only connection to the club that you are using to make the shot!