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What's Happening? Flagstick In or Out?

McLovin said:
yesterday i had my first bad break from putting with the stick in. very nice putt, pretty much tracking center cup, but hit the stick and caromed off and stopped on the edge. the stick was leaning a little, so i'll try to pay closer attention to that before putting.
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I had it hit from 2’ on Sat and bounce out

Good thing it was a scramble

Also had a chip hit it head on bounce out

Was not my day with the flagstick on Saturday

Will still putt with it in, was okay today
 
OITW said:
I had it hit from 2’ on Sat and bounce out

Good thing it was a scramble

Also had a chip hit it head on bounce out

Was not my day with the flagstick on Saturday

Will still putt with it in, was okay today
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If you had pulled the stick on every single chip and putt, would you have ketp track of every lip out or one that was hit a little too hard and didn't drop? And would you be reporting that here?

If I could see 30 seconds into the future I'd probably pull the stick some times and not pull it others, just because I knew when it was going to help and when it was going to hinder. Of course I'd also never be fooled by a break because my psychic ability would foresee that too!

We live in real time, no precognition. There is literally no way to know in advance if you're going to need the flagstick on this particular putt or will it get in the way or whatever.
 
Et Tu Brute? said:
If you had pulled the stick on every single chip and putt, would you have ketp track of every lip out or one that was hit a little too hard and didn't drop? And would you be reporting that here?

If I could see 30 seconds into the future I'd probably pull the stick some times and not pull it others, just because I knew when it was going to help and when it was going to hinder. Of course I'd also never be fooled by a break because my psychic ability would foresee that too!

We live in real time, no precognition. There is literally no way to know in advance if you're going to need the flagstick on this particular putt or will it get in the way or whatever.
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It’s more of keeping me grounded and maintaining the focus - the chip was a bad break

The putt - either take it out from that distance/ be more conscious of the speed in a 2’ putt
 
rollin said:
and i suppose that takes place about 7 times per round, raised your cap to 20 and the times it might help you only happens once in twenty rounds right?
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Your meds,,, take them.:banana:
 
If you could perfectly optimize the flagstick in/out on every shot, every round it would help your score approximately as much as Jordan Spieth asking "Michael" for that damn towel 40 times a round.
 
I'm with Dave Peltz. Anything 3' and over I keep it in.
 
Et Tu Brute? said:
If you could perfectly optimize the flagstick in/out on every shot, every round it would help your score approximately as much as Jordan Spieth asking "Michael" for that damn towel 40 times a round.
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You cannot quantify chance with the amount of variables a regular golfer has.

Kind of lost what sweaty spieth hands have to do with a flagstick being in though.
 
I haven't noticed much of a difference at all for me whether it is in or not. There are rounds when I love having it in on short putts of like 6 feet and in, esp on the 3 footers. Haven't had the bad experience yet of one not dropping. For me, it has been a non-factor. There are putts that I gladly keep it in, and there are times when I pull it. No real rhyme or reason to it.
 
Still messing around with what I'd like to do on these but short putts over the weekend I opted for the flag to be pulled to not risk the odd chance of the stick kicking the ball out. Worked out just fine.
 
Canadan said:
You cannot quantify chance with the amount of variables a regular golfer has.

Kind of lost what sweaty spieth hands have to do with a flagstick being in though.
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Exactly - I've seen tests that support both the 'pin in' and 'pin out' approach. For whatever reason, I just putt better with it out. I have no idea why, and I tried it extensively both ways. It's hard to compare human performance to controlled testing.
 
I'm still keeping it in for the most part, but it's course dependent. The 3 courses I play the most all have different flagsticks. One one course it definitely helps (older sticks). On another I think it's pretty neutral. For whatever reason, at one course I play the pin seems to hurt more than help, even on slow short putts. I'm also considering if it's the ball. I have played relatively soft balls for the most part, but have been playing firmer balls. Could that have an effect when it hits the pin? Does a firmer ball bounce off, while a softer ball gives more margin for error?
 
Canadan said:
You cannot quantify chance with the amount of variables a regular golfer has.

Kind of lost what sweaty spieth hands have to do with a flagstick being in though.
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At this point Jordan Spieth *believes* that he can't play his best unless he asks Michael to hand him the towel before every single swing. If he tried not doing that, he'd be very uncomfortable and in fact would probably play worse because he was worried about not wiping his hands.

Lots of people *believe* in exactly the same way that they can't putt their best with the flagstick in because it's a distraction (or they have some irrational fear of the ball being deflected out of the hole on a good putt). Whatever, if they putt without now after decades of always having it pulled they will be very uncomfortable.

So it's a self-fulfilling believe. They think it matters, which makes it matter. To them. All the "science" and YouTube videos are just attempts at rationalizing what comes down to habit and preference. I've seen no credible evidence that doing it one way or the other makes more than a tiny fraction of a stroke per round (maybe) to scoring.

Which is why I say this. Mark my words, in 2024 after five years under the new Rule (unless USGA change it back, bless their Pharisaical little hearts) you'll be able to play for weeks at a time without seeing anyone pull out the flagstick. But it'll take take for people to get comfortable with doing things slightly differently than they have all their golfing lives.
 
One of the main reasons I leave it out inside of 15' is I love the sound of the ball rattling around in the cup - best sound in golf!!

I've trained myself for 40 years to keep my body & head still until I hear that sound and the dull thud of the ball hitting the flagstick in comparison is so unsatisfying. I also hate a shadow or flapping in the wind flag when I'm close to the hole. I've played three rounds out of 32 this spring where it wasn't windy, so I have multiple reasons to want the flag out(besides the very obvious one to me that it hurts my chances of making the putt way more often than it could help).
 
I'm still firmly in the take the pin out crowd. It looks weird to be in the cup when putting and I've had too many hit the pin & roll/bounce back.
 
tahoebum said:
One of the main reasons I leave it out inside of 15' is I love the sound of the ball rattling around in the cup - best sound in golf!!

I've trained myself for 40 years to keep my body & head still until I hear that sound and the dull thud of the ball hitting the flagstick in comparison is so unsatisfying. I also hate a shadow or flapping in the wind flag when I'm close to the hole. I've played three rounds out of 32 this spring where it wasn't windy, so I have multiple reasons to want the flag out(besides the very obvious one to me that it hurts my chances of making the putt way more often than it could help).
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And depending on how attached you are to those feelings, you may well be still pulling the flag five years from now when you're the 1-in-50 golfers still doing it. But it's also possible that at some point you'll lose touch with those lifelong habits and settling in a new routine of leaving it in.

In any case, it's not something I think anyone should be bothered about if one guy in the group wants to pull it out. And the groups I play with all seem to feel the same, whatever someone feels comfortable with is fine as long as it doesn't turn into a protracted in-and-out-and-in-and-out all day long (like when one foursome has a "got to pull it" guy and a "must leave it" guy and they both want to play honors putting). And in that case it's more the honors putting thing that's causing the problem IMO.
 
In, mostly due to laziness and one buddy's preference for it.
 
I've still been taking the pin out most of the time and so have my playing partners. The exceptions have been long putts or downhill putts where it might help stop the ball if it's coming in hot. Maybe I'm just being too traditional but I like the look of no pin in when I'm putting.
 
tahoebum said:
One of the main reasons I leave it out inside of 15' is I love the sound of the ball rattling around in the cup - best sound in golf!!

I've trained myself for 40 years to keep my body & head still until I hear that sound and the dull thud of the ball hitting the flagstick in comparison is so unsatisfying. I also hate a shadow or flapping in the wind flag when I'm close to the hole. I've played three rounds out of 32 this spring where it wasn't windy, so I have multiple reasons to want the flag out(besides the very obvious one to me that it hurts my chances of making the putt way more often than it could help).
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I undesratdn your a fan of the study that showed that (what I'd call a somewhat flawed sweatspot) ball approach hitting and bouncing away. But either way we debate that and the over all things for better or worse imo there is no way anyone is making way more putts way more often one way vs the other. Unless its any mental thing aside, I find it extremely difficult to believe that you are losing enough putts to affect your handicap and scores over all to any significant degree especially at your handicap. the term "way more often" imo is an overstatement. And even if you do feel it hurts (which you do) there are still times it helps which in turn offsets some of those times it hurts anyway. Far and few from the majority of putts we take are going to be affected one way or the other. The difference just couldnt be anything overwhelming towards each round anyone plays.

I mean most people are playing many rounds and are not noticing anything truly significant because most the putts we take are not affected either way. Hardly no one is going to live in a specific putting place where the pin is going help or hurt us very often nor often enough to make any real significant difference. We would have to be hitting majority of our putts via an approach to the holes that allows for the hurt or the help and I just cant see that we would do that constantly enough at all for it to make a real difference. hardly no one should be making or missing way more putts one way or the other. if you are then you would have to be an extreme exception. Other than that i feel you are giving it far too much value vs how often its really changing your scores.
 
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rollin said:
I undesratdn your a fan of the study that showed that (what I'd call a somewhat flawed sweatspot) ball approach hitting and bouncing away. But either way we debate that and the over all things for better or worse imo there is no way anyone is making way more putts way more often one way vs the other. Unless its any mental thing aside, I find it extremely difficult to believe that you are losing enough putts to affect your handicap and scores over all to any significant degree especially at your handicap. the term "way more often" imo is an overstatement. And even if you do feel it hurts (which you do) there are still times it helps which in turn offsets some of those times it hurts anyway. Far and few from the majority of putts we take are going to be affected one way or the other. The difference just couldnt be anything overwhelming towards each round anyone plays. I mean most people are playing many rounds and are not noticing anything truly significant because most the putts we take are not affected either way. Hardly no one is going to live in a specific putting place where the pin is going help or hurt us very often nor often enough to make any real significant difference. We would have to be hitting majority of our putts via an approach to the holes that allows for the hurt or the help and I just cant see that we would do that constantly enough at all for it to make a real difference. hardly no one should be making or missing way more putts one way or the other. if you are then you would have to be an extreme exception. Other than that i feel you are giving it far too much value vs how often its really changing your scores.
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Break up your posts, walls of text just look horrid
 
Et Tu Brute? said:
At this point Jordan Spieth *believes* that he can't play his best unless he asks Michael to hand him the towel before every single swing. If he tried not doing that, he'd be very uncomfortable and in fact would probably play worse because he was worried about not wiping his hands.

Lots of people *believe* in exactly the same way that they can't putt their best with the flagstick in because it's a distraction (or they have some irrational fear of the ball being deflected out of the hole on a good putt). Whatever, if they putt without now after decades of always having it pulled they will be very uncomfortable.

So it's a self-fulfilling believe. They think it matters, which makes it matter. To them. All the "science" and YouTube videos are just attempts at rationalizing what comes down to habit and preference. I've seen no credible evidence that doing it one way or the other makes more than a tiny fraction of a stroke per round (maybe) to scoring.

Which is why I say this. Mark my words, in 2024 after five years under the new Rule (unless USGA change it back, bless their Pharisaical little hearts) you'll be able to play for weeks at a time without seeing anyone pull out the flagstick. But it'll take take for people to get comfortable with doing things slightly differently than they have all their golfing lives.
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How is a video that has the exact same variables for pin in vs pin out favoring pin out NOT credible evidence.

I've heard of 'seeing is believing' before. I've never heard of 'seeing is BS because it's not credible'

....no wait I definitely have, three big news channels do that daily. Does that mean this is fake news?
 
Et Tu Brute? said:
Someone posting a video on YouTube is not the least bit credible to me. Sorry.
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Someone... you mean a PhD in Mechanical Engineering / professor at Cal Poly....

This isn't some 60 year old dude with a bone to pick at ABC municipal drinking a Coors light and slapping balls at a pin.
 
Canadan said:
I wonder what Rory thinks about pin in vs pin out after yesterday...

(at 15 seconds in)
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hence part of the problem. We can watch countless video of similar shots hitting the pin and going in or how about hitting hard and still going in or staying very close vs running away.
 
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