Another lessons crossroads. A ton of info but what to do?

[rollin]

As many of you know we recently had a very opinionated and long thread on why one would not take lessons. For some of the reasons listed by many in the thread I am now at a crossroad. And quite frankly do not know what to do. here is what happened.

Sorry for a long post but its interesting and I must explain about the instructer best i can so you have a very good idea what i am faced with.

I took a (1hr) lesson yesterday from a very respectable figure who also teaches instructers. (emabarssed to say I forgot his name as I write this) He works with the knowledge about your body as an individual and applies it to just what is right for you only. Measures your forarms, elbow to shouldet, your hight, how much your upper body can twist in relation to the lower, how your arms hands and body flows as it moves through parts of the swing and the directions evrything about you naturally moves in, the stregnth of your wrists, etc, etc.. He then applies that to what would be a very individual type of swing for you only.

The best way for "me" and "my body" to-
grip the club
stand at adress
align
take the swing etc..
Basically takes your natural movements and natural specs then apllies it all to a swing that is very consistent with you.

I love the idea and everything he says makes a ton of sense. However he had me do things that were actually some things i was doing prior to my last years lessons i took early summer with a different instructer. That instructer had me change "some" things that this instructer is telling me was wrong of him to do. For just one example, says I need to to stand with my right foot back. I said "but this is how actually I use to stand prior to the other instructer". He said you were standing this way because it is what is consistent to the fact that your twisting motion is a bit limited and your body already knew what to do so the other instructer was wrong to eliminate that. Plenty of pros stand just this way.

He syas i have fast hips which is good but also have weak wrists which is not. says to grip the club more at the 1 to 2 oklock positon to strgnthen the grip (not to be confused with holding the club any tighter, two different things). Says the weak wrist will cause inconsistent club faces at impact and combined with fast hips will lead to more often open faces.

Talks about what longer vs shorter forearms do for a swing plane, taller shoulders etc, ect, etc

So very many other things about the swing. How its the arms looking to close the club and the hips and legs looking to open the club and how to best have the two offset each other but how to do it in relation to the individual's (my) body and its movements.

It was intense and it was interesting and informative but it was also somewhat overwhelming. I did feel as though the way i was doing evberything was more consistent with me naturally but I would also need to see him a couple more times. Just far too much info and although i learned alot it needs more continuation. But I also have a big issue. Its a ctach 22. I believ in what he is teaching me but cant afford continued lessons with this individual at $120 hour.. Yet I cant go back to using the info from last years instructer. I cant go to a cheaper instructer because I'm not going to change yet again.

I will go to the range or indoor facility and try to build on what he taught me. I can only pray that I find myself based on his teachings because if not i will be in for a long season. It took me nearly 3/4 last years golf just to settle into what the old instructer had me do and turns out much of that was wrong for me anyway.

I am almost angry that I learned. Its bittersweet. Now i dont know what to do. The whole thing is a process. I feel like i have now forced myself to give up some upcomming golf so i can continue with this guy. But i dont have that much golf in the first place. But if the golf is not going to be much good because I have not completed enough with this current instructer than the golf will not be fun. Hence the catch-22.

 

[deuce]

Wow, that bites. I hate to admit this, but I asked upfront how much lessons were going to cost me because I figured if I started and then couldn't afford it, I'd most likely be worse off than when I started (which at a 36 hdcp is laughable anyways). Fortunately it seems that in my neck of the woods, instruction is definitely cheaper than in some areas where you guys live. Have you asked him about a cheaper rate, perhaps if you paid upfront in cash he'd give you a discount? Not sure if that would work for you, but it may save you some cash. Paying in cash sometimes has the pretty good effect of dropping the overall price (probably because it goes right into the pocket and not on the books).

 

[salisboss]

This is a tough situation but my only suggestion would be to take what works and leave everything else. My current teacher is big on a lot of lag and my wrists can't take it so I am just focusing on not flipping .

 

[rollin]

Wow, that bites. I hate to admit this, but I asked upfront how much lessons were going to cost me because I figured if I started and then couldn't afford it, I'd most likely be worse off than when I started (which at a 36 hdcp is laughable anyways). Fortunately it seems that in my neck of the woods, instruction is definitely cheaper than in some areas where you guys live. Have you asked him about a cheaper rate, perhaps if you paid upfront in cash he'd give you a discount? Not sure if that would work for you, but it may save you some cash. Paying in cash sometimes has the pretty good effect of dropping the overall price (probably because it goes right into the pocket and not on the books).

He does have a lump package discounted rate but its like $500 minimum. My wife would devorce me tomorrow lol. But he does do 1/2 hour also which may be an option but 1/2 hour is good for tweaking imo but not for learning new stuff imo. I dont know just have to see what happens here. I started so i am going to have to try to do at least one more if i can and hope I better understand most of it.

 

[rollin]

This is a tough situation but my only suggestion would be to take what works and leave everything else. My current teacher is big on a lot of lag and my wrists can't take it so I am just focusing on not flipping .

I here ya but the problem is that it was just too much to figure which part to build on without at least another one.

 

[Michigan Slice]

First of all I think the question is this: What is your final destination, do you want to become a scratch golfer, or play the game in a more consistent way and have fun doing so?

I'd imagine it's the latter, sorry if I assumed incorrectly.

Your current instructor seems interested with using your current body structure, and flexibility and giving pointers to make the game simpler for you.
It is a lot, and I know it's frustrating knowing you spent hard earned cash learning how to get away from your natural movements.
Your current instructor is going by a "swing your swing" concept instead of trying to build a "textbook" swing.
Do we all want that beautiful textbook swing? Sure!
But that's not reality for some of us due to limitations.

Good luck to you!

 

[rollin]

First of all I think the question is this: What is your final destination, do you want to become a scratch golfer, or play the game in a more consistent way and have fun doing so?

I'd imagine it's the latter, sorry if I assumed incorrectly.

Your current instructor seems interested with using your current body structure, and flexibility and giving pointers to make the game simpler for you.
It is a lot, and I know it's frustrating knowing you spent hard earned cash learning how to get away from your natural movements.
Your current instructor is going by a "swing your swing" concept instead of trying to build a "textbook" swing.
Do we all want that beautiful textbook swing? Sure!
But that's not reality for some of us due to limitations.

Good luck to you!

According to him there is really no such thing as a text book swing. There is only a swing that is consistent with each individual and correct for him..Talked of how so amny different pros do things very differently because thier body and movements are different. Doesnt look at it as limitations at all but just how best to utilize what nature gave you. Says its not about thinking as though its making fixes to compenstae for any limitation but to actually play to thier stregnths. I have no issue with what he is doing, in fact its the first instructer that i think makes more sense than any other I had. Fortunately but Unfortunately (lol) I'm going to have to try to see him more.

 

[Paladin]

I'm a big fan of "swing how your body is meant to." Most pros do similar things at a macro level, but the fun part is how different they are at the micro level. The "textbook" swing doesn't exist. So in that regard, I agree with your current instructor as far as how he's building your swing. I agree that it's annoying and frustrating to learn new habits, whether you learnt them last year or a decade ago. But I think if a coach can explain why you should do it, and it makes sense, I'm more likely to listen than if a coach says I should do it because someone else does it, or because that's part of a "textbook" swing. I'm 5'5" and 160 pounds. I'm not a "textbook" or archetypical golfer. It stands to reason I won't swing a golf club the way an archetypical golfer would. Then when you look at the heights, and builds of golfers, you realize there's no such thing at all, really.

We put so much effort into altering our club for our swing, and our swing for something more, but there are big parts of the swing that we cannot change, like the width of our shoulders or the length of our arms. I think it's a very interesting concept your current instructor is employing of using some of the only parts of our golf swing that doesn't change (the skeletal structure of the golfer) to "build" a swing.

 

[BradMorris]

If you believe in what he is saying, and can afford one more lesson, I would set one up and tell him exactly what you have told us here. Ask him to give you 3 fundamental things that you can take with you and work on on your own time that will get you on the path that he thinks you should be on. I basically did this last year with my instructor. We had a 90 minute session and we talked at length about the things I need to work on and why. I told him I'd see him next year. But the hardest part in doing that is that you have to understand what and why he is asking you to do certain things, and you need to have the understanding and ability to measure progress.

I agree that you are in a tough situation. But if you can get one more lesson with the guy, I would try to do it so concepts and practices aren't just left hanging. Good luck.

 

[tequila4kapp]

Part of working with any instructor is explaining constraints. Sometimes that means time. Sometimes that means practice facilities aren't available. Sometimes it means physical injury or limitation. I think it is fair to go back to him and explain that you want to work with him but the money is a challenge. Perhaps you can work together to develop a plan where you see him on a less frequent basis and you have modified expectations about how to work on things in between lessons to account for the longer duration.

 

[golfinFF]

Rollin that's tough and I hate to hear that the instructor you had before did not work out for you.

I'm glad you found someone that you like as instructor. I know you want to improve and take more lessons, so you can be more consistent and have more fun on the course. I know the new instructor is expensive and wants more per lesson than what you are comfortable spending. I suggest speaking with him and being upfront and honest that you want to continue seeing him but can't afford to see him as much as you'd like to. Ask him if there is something you can work out with him on cost or doing some bargaining by doing some work around the shop/range.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[rollin]

Rollin that's tough and I hate to hear that the instructor you had before did not work out for you.

I'm glad you found someone that you like as instructor. I know you want to improve and take more lessons, so you can be more consistent and have more fun on the course. I know the new instructor is expensive and wants more per lesson than what you are comfortable spending. I suggest speaking with him and being upfront and honest that you want to continue seeing him but can't afford to see him as much as you'd like to. Ask him if there is something you can work out with him on cost or doing some bargaining by doing some work around the shop/range.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

You know, its kind of strange because that earlier instructor did make me realize some things and it did help with some things. I only happened upon this new fellow because he was available at (a different place)and at the time I was able to go so I took him. Otherwise I most likely would have tried to see the original guy again at the other place. But I am glad I saw this guy because of all I mention. It does somewhat upset me that although the earlier guy was also helpful in many ways he also was wrong for trying to force a swing on me that wouldn't be consistent with me. But until I met this new fellow, I would have never known this. I imagine there are far too many instructors who go about teaching a swing rather than fitting a swing to you. This is the main difference here and quite frankly imo it is a huge difference.

With this logic I feel it should be the only way to actually teach or in my case learn. I have advocated on this forum and have said in the exact words without really knowing for sure that I always felt all our bodies are so very different and always believed that is why golf comes easier for some than others. I've stated imo only that I felt some people just have natural movements that are more consistent with what is required to deliver more consistent ball strikes. Well that's why this whole thing with this new guy makes a ton of sense to me. I may not be exactly been correct in what I said but it all falls in the exact same logic of what I always felt about it. Tells me that I was correct in thinking that way. Now to continue to figure out more of what my sing is and settle in to my swing. This is what I can only hope to do. I am going to have to see him at least once more some how. Hopefully it will be just enough so that I can better understand where I stand and dial in on it just enough more than what I have done so afar after this one lesson and hopefully will then be enough to give me a solid base to continue on my own.

 

[golfinFF]

Don't forget about the Panda when you start working on your own. I do believe he has a similar philosophy to the second guy you've seen and like his take much better.

I agree with you on the fact that each of us has our own limitations and not everyone can make the same swing with consistent results.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[rollin]

So I went to hit balls today (same indoor facility). My irons are ok. Not great but I got a good feel within the new info and teachings. Something I can certainly build on and feel I should be ok. However I am now lost with the driver. A part of my game that I was decent with. But now was a complete disaster. It was so frustrating I eventually went back to the irons practicing and walked away from the driver for the time being.

 

[golfinFF]

remember to put the same swing on the driver as your irons. one thing that maybe throwing you off with driver is that it has more centrifugal force on the back swing than an iron that could be pulling you out of position. slow down your take away and see if that helps

 

[deuce]

I agree with you on the fact that each of us has our own limitations and not everyone can make the same swing with consistent results.

Part of what I was discussing with my instructor was how flexibility limits my swing. I watch his swing, and then I try to mimic it, but since I am so inflexible it pulls me entirely out of sync. To get the club head where I think it needs to be, I need to rotate my hips out of line, I have to lift my body up, and then when I start my downswing, my body realizes that it's out of position and attempts to make corrections in that short timeframe. End results? I'm all out of whack and it translates into an out of whack swing and ball flight.

So, I am working to get the best possible swing with my limitations, all the while working on my flexibility.

 

[rollin]

remember to put the same swing on the driver as your irons. one thing that maybe throwing you off with driver is that it has more centrifugal force on the back swing than an iron that could be pulling you out of position. slow down your take away and see if that helps

Thanks and sort of Yes, and no about the same. There are imo differences between the shorter clubs, longer ones and fw's, and driver. As we all know the club face and swing path only come together for the correct contact for a tiniest fraction of the swing. We are hitting the ball at a different place in the arc with short vs mid/long vs driver. Although the swing may be considered the same we must now make changes via initial setup and/or ball position and/or whatever else to best have it come together at a different place and also be able to do it consistently. Of course the arc itself with longer clubs is also on a different plane. So in one sense its very minor things but yet when everything is about the tiniest fractions then "minor" things is really a lot.

 

[golfinFF]

I agree hitting up verse down, ball position and contact point in the swing are different. But the turn, loading and downswing regardless of ball position and plane due to shaft length should be the the same IMO and from what I understand of the swing.

 

[rollin]

I agree hitting up verse down, ball position and contact point in the swing are different. But the turn, loading and downswing regardless of ball position and plane due to shaft length should be the the same IMO and from what I understand of the swing.

That's why I said "yes and no" . The same but different if that makes any sense lol. I think you know what I mean.

Here is an email (copied) I received from the instructor just today.

Dear Dean, it was a pleasure to be able to work with you the other
day at the GolfCave. You truly have a very nice motion, a correct golf
swing, one that we should all aspire to. It is my belief that your
desire for consistency can be found in the setup. By adjusting your
grip to match the speed of your hips you will easily and effortlessly
create a match of the upper and lower body and a more consistent ball
flight. Please keep me posted on your progress and how you are doing.
Warren


Sounds simple right? lol but we all know its not so easily done. Anyway a really nice guy with (imo) a ton of knowledge about the body in relation to swinging. He was really complimentary towards my swing even before adjusting some of it and after making some he loved what he saw even more. Is highly convinced there is no way I shouldn't be shooting consistent low/mid 80's. I don't know if its his way of hooking me in but he really sounded sincere. Said to call him any time for any question at all. Though I am a bit embarrassed to call him too much because I cant afford him much. I will call him and talk of how I can see him again in a way where its a bit cheaper. Perhaps in a different facility IDK.

 

[rollin]

Ok so I have done something that I shouldn't have done. I have seen this guy again. I thought one more time and I would get more in tune with is workings for me. I took the chance and spent money I shouldn't have spent but I just had to do it. But now there are more things and this is going to require a process of which I can not do. He didn't offer any financial solution to it other than to say you can call me anytime and if I am around while your here don't hesitate to have me take a peak at you.

He is convinced I can be pretty darn good at this game if just this (one or two more things I can change). But I just don't know, I cant seem to break into what he is suggesting I do and of course the more we do the more involved it becomes. I still agree with his teachings and all he says still makes sense but its become more intense. And as I change one thing, then something else pops up. Its a process I can not commit to. All I can do is give a good hardy effort at what I got from him so far (two lessons) and hit the ranges as much as I can prior to the golf season. If I cant get myself to build on it after a good effort at the ranges then I am going to have to come to a happy medium somewhere between my old swinging and his new suggestions or I will just be in for a total mess. I know it sounds crazy with the way I speak highly of this guy and I still do feel highly about him but I am now almost regretting having started this. The last thing I wanted to do was put myself in a situation that I cant afford to be in. Incomplete lessons may end up more harmful than no lesson. I have some serious thinking to do.

 

[MarcH]

Main thing you have to realize is it takes a ton of time and effort to implement a change and make it yours. Tiger's been trying for what 3 years now? And thats one of the most dedicated and most talented people to take up this game, ever. You just have to find the one you trust...and trust fully...then really dedicate yourself to that and only that for a long time. I'm gonna drink a beer in your swings honor...best of luck.

 

[baldguy]

I gotta say I can relate. No two instructors have told me the same thing. Take, for example, ball position of an 8 iron at address. One wants the ball back of center with lots of shaft lean, one wants it in the middle with a little shaft lean, the other wants it just forward of center, with the shaft perfectly vertical. They also all had very different things to say about grip, lag, takeaway, release, and stance. All of these are reputable instructors but they are all teaching very different methods. All insisted that their method would work great if I would jsut adopt everything they wanted me to do. I'd try, and my swing would go to #$%^ for a week or two. Eventually I'd get the swing changes in and be halfway decent with them, but never happy. then the next instructor would tell me I wasdoing everything wrong, and get me to change to his method... rinse and repeat. If I could find an instructor that I felt like I could trust and rely on, then I'd just stick with his method and make it work... but alas, none of the first four fit that bill. For me, the moral of the story is that all PGA instructors are most definitely not created equal. I'll be trying again soon.

 

[rollin]

Yes "Baldy" and "marc" And this guy has an explanation as to why I should or shouldnt do everything a certain way. Not by any book or anything but simply in relation to how i am built and how i move as an individual. I love the logic but I dont want to lose the entire season to it which is not a whole ton of golf for me to begin with. I really hope I find some kind of groove to settle into at my next few range sessions or I'll be second guessing what to do.

Most every one has ya so convinced that lessons are the only way to go but as in the thread about lessons there are so many reasons its not always going to work out good. Its still too soon to be so worried yet but I lost just so many rounds last year just trying to settle in to those lessons and I dont want it to be next september again until I start to finally settle in a again and then basically another season has passed. Maybe I just have to realize I will just never be more than a 90's golf scorer (at my locals) and only ocassionaly hit something lower.

 

[baldguy]

I think if you have an instructor who is tailoring his advice to your body, flexibility, etc. then you're ahead of the game. That's something I'd love to find in an instructor. My previous experiences have been more of the 'lecture' type of lesson where he seemed to be just reciting 'what should be done' instead of helping me improve my swing. swing changes always take some work to settle in. I think if you like the instructor then you should give it a shot.

 

[rollin]

Yesi will give it a hardy try as I get to hit balls. But I have already overstepped my own resources for these two lessons spending $240 bucks. So seing him again is just not an option. I can only hope I can build on what was taught after some good attempts hitting balls through the rest of this winter whenever I can. Which BTW this has been a cold and tough one so far this year. Then I 'll just see what happens. If I cant settle into it I'm not going to lose out but instead will have to change back to continue on the old instructers teachings where I left off last year. Only time will tell.