Golfwolf
New member
!00% agree with the above, SBST is not really possible without manipulation except on very short putts. I have a slight arc stroke, work on rocking your shoulders as others have stated.
SBST vs Arc Putting
!00% agree with the above, SBST is not really possible without manipulation except on very short putts. I have a slight arc stroke, work on rocking your shoulders as others have stated.
Adam Hartzell
Yup, I'm a lefty.
I used to be SBST and was very accurate on putts inside 10', but couldn't even lag putt if I was outside of that. I'm now using my natural arc, and while I'm much better with the aim on longer putts I still struggle with distance control. I just need to practice more.
bilinguru
New member
Here's an argument for SBST.
To achieve a completely SBST stroke, you need a posture, set up and putter that promotes a perfect pendulum motion. It is nearly impossible to accomplish and the longer the putt and the less lie angle you have, the less SBST the stroke will be. Adam Scott has perhaps the closest thing to a SBST stoke,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebi8tLXqCB8
He can achieve this because he sets up directly over the ball and the long putter allows for an almost 90 degree lie angle (The putter itself is 80 degrees which is the max allowed by the rules). A croquet mallet has a 90 degree lie angle.
A conventional length putter has an average lie angle of 70 degrees, and the shaft is bent near the hosel thereby increasing lie angle. There are plenty of golfers who suffer from back issues, and this set up makes sense. But a SBST stroke can still be executed with this type of putter.
Of course, we all know the anchored putting will be banned. But, why is it being banned? Because anchored putting allows for as close to perfect SBST as possible.
That is not to say that an arcing stroke cannot get the face square, but the challenge is to do this consistently. An arc by its very nature, has an apex. That apex should be reached at the point of contact. After reaching this point, you can either let the putter head continue arcing or attempt to hold the face square and straight through.
So, there is actually a third option: Inside-square-square in which you Arc back and Arc return to impact and then straight through after impact.
As I said, the challenge is consistency. With a lot of practice, you can get your stroke arcing and reaching the apex with a square club face. But, there are fewer compensations required if you can groove a consistent SBST stroke.
I certainly think IS THE way to go on short putts. With very little backstroke, straight back is not difficult to achieve.
To achieve a completely SBST stroke, you need a posture, set up and putter that promotes a perfect pendulum motion. It is nearly impossible to accomplish and the longer the putt and the less lie angle you have, the less SBST the stroke will be. Adam Scott has perhaps the closest thing to a SBST stoke,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebi8tLXqCB8
He can achieve this because he sets up directly over the ball and the long putter allows for an almost 90 degree lie angle (The putter itself is 80 degrees which is the max allowed by the rules). A croquet mallet has a 90 degree lie angle.
A conventional length putter has an average lie angle of 70 degrees, and the shaft is bent near the hosel thereby increasing lie angle. There are plenty of golfers who suffer from back issues, and this set up makes sense. But a SBST stroke can still be executed with this type of putter.
Of course, we all know the anchored putting will be banned. But, why is it being banned? Because anchored putting allows for as close to perfect SBST as possible.
That is not to say that an arcing stroke cannot get the face square, but the challenge is to do this consistently. An arc by its very nature, has an apex. That apex should be reached at the point of contact. After reaching this point, you can either let the putter head continue arcing or attempt to hold the face square and straight through.
So, there is actually a third option: Inside-square-square in which you Arc back and Arc return to impact and then straight through after impact.
As I said, the challenge is consistency. With a lot of practice, you can get your stroke arcing and reaching the apex with a square club face. But, there are fewer compensations required if you can groove a consistent SBST stroke.
I certainly think IS THE way to go on short putts. With very little backstroke, straight back is not difficult to achieve.
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
Here's an argument for SBST.
To achieve a completely SBST stroke, you need a posture, set up and putter that promotes a perfect pendulum motion. It is nearly impossible to accomplish and the longer the putt and the less lie angle you have, the less SBST the stroke will be. Adam Scott has perhaps the closest thing to a SBST stoke,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebi8tLXqCB8
He can achieve this because he sets up directly over the ball and the long putter allows for an almost 90 degree lie angle (The putter itself is 80 degrees which is the max allowed by the rules). A croquet mallet has a 90 degree lie angle.
A conventional length putter has an average lie angle of 70 degrees, and the shaft is bent near the hosel thereby increasing lie angle. There are plenty of golfers who suffer from back issues, and this set up makes sense. But a SBST stroke can still be executed with this type of putter.
Of course, we all know the anchored putting will be banned. But, why is it being banned? Because anchored putting allows for as close to perfect SBST as possible.
That is not to say that an arcing stroke cannot get the face square, but the challenge is to do this consistently. An arc by its very nature, has an apex. That apex should be reached at the point of contact. After reaching this point, you can either let the putter head continue arcing or attempt to hold the face square and straight through.
So, there is actually a third option: Inside-square-square in which you Arc back and Arc return to impact and then straight through after impact.
As I said, the challenge is consistency. With a lot of practice, you can get your stroke arcing and reaching the apex with a square club face. But, there are fewer compensations required if you can groove a consistent SBST stroke.
I certainly think IS THE way to go on short putts. With very little backstroke, straight back is not difficult to achieve.
I disagree with much of what is posted above. This is just another example of why SBST is a term that does not help amateur golfers. There needs to be far less focus on the stoke and more on a consistent posture and taking variables out of the equation. Not sure how the article can admit that the putter needs to be at 90* to achieve a true SBST stroke and then say it can be done at 70*. The third option of inside-square-square is laughable due to the amount of hand manipulation involved.
- Staff
- #30
Amen. Now get out of my head.
Adam Hartzell
Yup, I'm a lefty.
I have accepted that everyone is different and everyone should use whatever is best for them.
Lance0363
New member
To those that "rock the shoulders" what is your feel? That's what I'm trying to accomplish, and I'm trying to just lift my right shoulder, then let it drop back down. Am I on the right track?
ohio_striker
striped it
opcorn:
bilinguru
New member
I agree. What I wonder is whether people confuse what is 'comfortable' with what is best. Anyone who has ever made a swing change understands that it feels uncomfortable at first, as you are attempting to rewire your brain. Eventually, if you keep at it, the changes are incorporated and become comfortable. If you've been using one swing or stroke for many years (even if its mechanically poor) it feels comfortable. The reason we seek to change something is because it isn't working. If you are comfortable with an arcing stroke AND you sink lots of putts, then you would be crazy to change it. But if your arcing stroke, while natural in feeling, results in pushes, pulls, poor distance control or other problems, then perhaps it's time to change something. It doesn't have to be the stroke path, maybe you need a putter fitting.
It never ceases to amaze me how players will be open to changes to their full swing, but cling to their established stroke regardless of whether it is producing the desired results. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, but expecting different results. What is it about putting that brings this out in people?
Once again, I'm not saying everyone should use a SBST stroke. I AM saying that if you're arcing stroke isn't working, perhaps another approach is warranted.
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
All paths have arc, even those that claim to be SBST. This is just a fact for any golfer that stands on one side of the ball. The SBST does not eliminate a variable.
Closer to 90* is not 90*
Just because instructors or aids advocate things does not make them correct.There is no way to go inside-square-square without some sort of hand manipulation as it goes against the natural arc of the stroke.
I do agree with in large part with the “balanced stroke” idea for distance control and that shorter strokes and quicker tempos can help quite a few golfers. Working on ideas like this and other parts of putting that are in our control will help the majority of individuals. Then just let your natural stoke (whatever that may be) happen. It will benefit golfers far more than marketing terms like SBST, slight arc, and strong arc.
bilinguru
New member
I said in my initial response that SBST is impossible to achieve. When I said it eliminates a variable, I meant ideally. Since no stroke will be without some arc, this variable will always exist. Yet, you keep talking about hand manipulation without describing what that entails.
If you watch someone putt for the first time, their 'natural stroke' usually doesn't get the ball in the hole. Again what feels 'natural' does not necessarily get the face square at impact - and there can be no argument that a face that is square at impact will get the ball rolling towards its intended target: an open face results in a push and a closed face results in a pull. Everyone makes adjustment to their set up and stroke to achieve that goal.
To call a straight back-straight through stroke a 'marketing' term sounds a little cynical. Terminology emerges to explain phenomena. 'Over the top,' 'Inside-Out,' etc. The fact that putter manufacturers and putting instructors use such terminology does not invalidate the meaning or usefulness.
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
The cool thing is I think we are on the same page for the most part. I am not trying to invalidate the terms. Just feel they are over used and do little good for most golfers. They get people focused on the wrong things IMO. Personally I think a repeatable posture and set-up along with a properly fit putter (length/loft/lie), will do far more good than trying to determine what kind of stroke you have.
Not sure how to further define hand manipulation, other than to say there is movement on the hands, wrists, and forearms which is not needed and leads to inconsistency. I certainly agree the idea is get the putter square at impact and I am not sure how you do that on a regular basis with some of the methods you outlined in your first post.
bilinguru
New member
Here's a video I just recorded that says what I mean better.
Note
a) I'm a a lefty.
b) I'm using a center-shafted putter.
c) I'm Canadian. (Nice slippers, eh?)
Basically, my stroke is arc back (just not as much as many other people) and straight through
Also here's a photo of my 8 ft. putting station.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8IjRKGeV9lIcFE5Y3MxcmlOV1k/edit?usp=sharing
Note
a) I'm a a lefty.
b) I'm using a center-shafted putter.
c) I'm Canadian. (Nice slippers, eh?)
Basically, my stroke is arc back (just not as much as many other people) and straight through
Also here's a photo of my 8 ft. putting station.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8IjRKGeV9lIcFE5Y3MxcmlOV1k/edit?usp=sharing
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
I appreciate the video and would love to see a view where we could see your hands, wrists and arms. I tried myself and can't come anywhere close to a SBST stroke unless I turn my right hand in on the back stroke and my left hand in at or slightly after impact. When I just rock my shoulders and keep my hands still there is a noticable arc every time.
Stand strait up and just hold the putter out in front of you in the air. Like your holding a sword pointed at someone. Now swing the putter around you without using your arms, just your upper bodies big muscles (not waist)... that's what it feels like to me.
bilinguru
New member
The last putt I take it further and hold, which is unbalanced, and therefore there is a noticeable arc through.
I definitely rock my shoulders and try to keep my wrists firm, and feel the club head in my fingers (I have a very light grip pressure.)
Apologies
I definitely rock my shoulders and try to keep my wrists firm, and feel the club head in my fingers (I have a very light grip pressure.)
Apologies
Last edited:
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
Not much if any movement in your hands but there does appear to be a little in the wrist. Tough to tell in the dark room but enough to get the point.
I guess it boils down to this for me: In order to take out the variables, I try and keep everything perfectly still and rock the shoulders. If I work on getting into the exact same set-up position every time, this gives me an arc that closely resembles the lie of my putter, which is 68*. I can use a plane board set at the same angle as my putter to cultivate a repeatable stroke. There is no need for me to think about the type of stroke I make. It could be arc, straight, zigzag, or whatever but it just does not matter.
Until I started doing this, I was an awful putter. I thought I was SBST and tried my hardest to make it work. When I try to do a SBST stroke I must move my hands or wrists to make it happen. Extra variables and no consistency. Much like the forward press, people can learn to putt and putt very well like this. To me it just doesn't make sense to bring more into the equation. I find putting theory endlessly fascinating and appreciate your thoughts and our conversation. Thanks for jumping in and welcome to THP.
I guess it boils down to this for me: In order to take out the variables, I try and keep everything perfectly still and rock the shoulders. If I work on getting into the exact same set-up position every time, this gives me an arc that closely resembles the lie of my putter, which is 68*. I can use a plane board set at the same angle as my putter to cultivate a repeatable stroke. There is no need for me to think about the type of stroke I make. It could be arc, straight, zigzag, or whatever but it just does not matter.
Until I started doing this, I was an awful putter. I thought I was SBST and tried my hardest to make it work. When I try to do a SBST stroke I must move my hands or wrists to make it happen. Extra variables and no consistency. Much like the forward press, people can learn to putt and putt very well like this. To me it just doesn't make sense to bring more into the equation. I find putting theory endlessly fascinating and appreciate your thoughts and our conversation. Thanks for jumping in and welcome to THP.
codybwallace
New member
- Thread starter
- #47
Maybe not the place for this question, but I have really appreciated all of your discussion.
How does a counterbalanced influence the putter stroke. It seems like it would reduce the arc of the stroke. Am I way off base here?
^^^^Just Tapped That
How does a counterbalanced influence the putter stroke. It seems like it would reduce the arc of the stroke. Am I way off base here?
^^^^Just Tapped That
Howzat
I'd Rather Be At The Hideaway
Glad you have enjoyed the conversation as I tried to stay on topic and not derail the thread. As far as counter balance, I don't think it has any influence or bearing on the arc of the stroke.
cnosil
Active member
I would say counterbalancing impacts rotation more than amount of arc.
codybwallace
New member
- Thread starter
- #50