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Diesel cars & SUV

I've had diesels for the last 7 years, ranging from a VW Golf GTTDI fast and cheap to run, a Mercedes M Class that coped well off road even in the snow, a Mitsubishi L200 Warrior and a Triton (same car but Asian spec), and now a Chevy Trailblazer 2.5 Duramax diesel. The L200 was loaded up with dogs, people, and the odd deer after a successful stalk in Scotland, in one of the UK's worst winters in Scotland I was the only person able to get out of the condo I lived in, it coped with mud, water, snow, and reasonably rugged hilly terrain with no worries at all, was comfortable enough to drive 350 odd miles on the motorways down South, and was reasonably economical on a long run at a constant speed, town driving it drank a lot of diesel.
The Chevy is a big old beast for me being English, but is comfortable to drive, copes well with the Thai highways and rural back roads / tracks, pretty economical to run and I am sure it "borrows" the engine from Isuzu.
 
Redowl said:
Our towing is broken up into two distances. Distance 1: 5 miles from our house, no speed limits over 50. Distance 2: 250 miles, all highway & interstate driving.

We will be towing a utility trailer and a ski boat. The trailer isn't a concern (it weighs in at less than 2,000 lbs when loaded). The ski boat & trailer combo weighs around 6,000 pounds.

We would also like the ability to move a pontoon boat around from time to time, but it would be rare.
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I believe just about every SUV you are looking at will handle your trailer and boat with no issues, remember that pontoon boats are like giant wind drags and do not pull easy at highway speeds.
 
Modern common rail diesels are fantastic. They drive pretty much like gasoline, except they have lots of lovely low down torque. Much quieter, faster and better MPG than the older diesel turbo engines. I'm a big fan.
 
Many make valid points here. An additional thing to think about is the cost of the fuel. In my area diesel runs .30+ more per gallon than gas. Let's assume that rarely does a vehicle actually make the fuel economy in real life that is stated on the sticker, does a diesel make sense?

Take for instance a new Ram 1500 pick-up truck 4x4. It is available with a 5.7l v8 or a v6 Ecodiesel, (you wouldn't tow with a standard v6). The 5.7 gets a combined city/highway of 19mpg, the diesel 22mpg. Is that efficient enough to offset the higher fuel cost? It's very close and at times it might or might not, but we haven't yet added in additional cost of $2850 to even get it as an option. Without interest that breaks down to .04 per mile over 5 years/75,000 miles.

If the diesel vehicle that you might be looking at requires the use of diesel exhaust fluid to meet emissions standards it could equal up to an additional .17 per gallon in fuel costs depending on the current price of urea.

There is still much debate between diesel/gas v8/and ecoboost type engines when it comes to fuel economy by today's standards. We will keep performance as a separate debate.

Add that to the fact that in my latest research as I am in the market for a new truck, that maintenance costs can be higher....especially on Luxury brands that are out of service contracts.
 
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Diesel cars & SUV

Buckeyeduffer said:
In Europe diesel ranges from 1.74 per gallon to 2.33 (usd) and gas ranges from 1.77 to 2.62 per gallon (usd) on average as of April,
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Ha ha, I wish (well I don't actually care anymore as I no longer live there)! That's the price per litre, or at least it is in the UK. I have no idea how many litres are in a US gallon though.

Edit*** google tells me it's 3.785
 
Mark_UK said:
Ha ha, I wish (well I don't actually care anymore as I no longer live there)! That's the price per litre, or at least it is in the UK. I have no idea how many litres are in a US gallon though.

Edit*** google tells me it's 3.785
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Ha, I didn't realize where I got my numbers from was in liters when I converted the dollars. Boy I messed that up. lol:rain:

I will edit my statement as to not provide false info.
 
Buckeyeduffer said:
Many make valid points here. An additional thing to think about is the cost of the fuel. In my area diesel runs .30+ more per gallon than gas. Let's assume that rarely does a vehicle actually make the fuel economy in real life that is stated on the sticker, does a diesel make sense?

Take for instance a new Ram 1500 pick-up truck 4x4. It is available with a 5.7l v8 or a v6 Ecodiesel, (you wouldn't tow with a standard v6). The 5.7 gets a combined city/highway of 19mpg, the diesel 22mpg. Is that efficient enough to offset the higher fuel cost? It's very close and at times it might or might not, but we haven't yet added in additional cost of $2850 to even get it as an option. Without interest that breaks down to .04 per mile over 5 years/75,000 miles.

If the diesel vehicle that you might be looking at requires the use of diesel exhaust fluid to meet emissions standards it could equal up to an additional .17 per gallon in fuel costs depending on the current price of urea.

There is still much debate between diesel/gas v8/and ecoboost type engines when it comes to fuel economy by today's standards. We will keep performance as a separate debate.

Add that to the fact that in my latest research as I am in the market for a new truck, that maintenance costs can be higher....especially on Luxury brands that are out of service contracts.
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there are also a lot of benefits from a diesel that don't break down easily into per-mile numbers. The biggest one is engine longevity. you can expect anywhere from 30-50% more life from a diesel in the same conditions as its gas counterpart. Sometimes that number jumps up to 100% (mainly in big trucks that will really tax a gasser). I'm not so sure about your $0.17/gallon DEF upcharge though. I'm only refilling that 6-gallon tank about every 9,000-10,000 miles (I've done 5 full refills in 57kish miles, and a good chunk of that was towing heavy). When I need to, I pop into my local auto parts store and never pay more than $6/gal. It's almost always on sale though, so I'm usually getting it for $5/gal. My truck averages 17.5 mpg with mostly around-town driving. Even at the worse end of those numbers, it's only costing me 4 cents for every 10 miles, or about 7 cents per gallon when calculated as a fuel upcharge. On the better end of the numbers, it's half that. And that's in a 9,000 lb truck. For a smaller vehicle the numbers should improve quite a bit.

btw, as for fuel economy in a daily driver capacity, my 3/4 ton '11 Ford outpaces my previous 1/2 ton gasser '07 Toyota by a decent margin - about 18% better economy by my personal fuel logs. Which is impressive considering that it's a lot heavier *and* it's 4x4 versus 4x2. When you factor in the more expensive fuel and the addition of DEF, the total fuel costs are about the same. Maintenance costs are about the same overall, though the schedule is much different. Insurance is the same... really only the inspection is less but that's trivial. Overall it costs the same to own and use this truck as it did my last. But, it's so much more capable that it's not even funny. Pulling a 7k lb trailer with the Tundra was a real chore. This truck doesn't even break a sweat.
 
TeedUpThoughts said:
New Jeep Grand Cherokee says up to 7400lbs when properly equipped, doesn't say if it's the ecoboost diesel engine or not though...
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It is the diesel. It's the same diesel that's in the new 1500 Ram truck. They claim a mpg of 19 in the city and 28 on the highway in 4WD. It should be more than able to tow your toys.
 
I'm a huge fan of small displacement turbo diesels. I think this is where a lot of the automotive market needs to be headed. When you're talking about fuel mileage and what that costs you, the length of time you plan to keep the vehicle plays a huge part. If you're a new car every 3 years kind of guy, it's probably not going to pencil out. If you buy vehicles to keep long-term, I think diesel is a great investment (I purchased a 2013 Ram 3/4 ton just under a year ago, because I was going through gas trucks every 3 years and losing my shirt on them). I'm an insurance adjuster and literally look at vehicles all day. Over the years, I've really soured on many of the American made lines, because they just don't hold up like European and Asian makes. There are, of course, exceptions to this on both sides. But as a general rule, I'd run far away from GM and Ford SUVs. They depreciate like crazy and just don't hold up well over time as a general rule. I've had better luck with Dodge and Jeep vehicles over the years (I've had Chevy and Ford trucks as well) and what I see on a daily basis is most of the American stuff not aging gracefully. If a Toureg is in your budget, that's a pretty solid choice.
 
By no means do I think diesels are a bad thing, but I do think there are many things to consider to determine if it really suites your needs better or worse than gas. Now for longevity they do last longer engine wise, but will the car/truck around them hold up that long. I've been considering the Ram 1500 and yet it scares me. The transmissions have been very iffy over the years and I see multiple Rams a day that aren't that old in very nice shape...until you see the back wheel wells rusting out on them. Now, I live in a part of the country that sees snow and road salt to help deteriorate a vehicle and I am assuming the op does as well being from Wisconsin.
 
My wife and I have a 2012 VW Passat TDI and I love it. I am a diesel fan for life after having this car. I really wanted the new Ram 1500 with the diesel but the bank account said no!
 
Buckeye you make a great point about the vehicle needing to hold up around the motor. IMO this is why more big3 cars don't have them, and is why the higher quality "luxury" foreign cars SUV's do.
 
Lynchburg14 said:
My wife and I have a 2012 VW Passat TDI and I love it. I am a diesel fan for life after having this car. I really wanted the new Ram 1500 with the diesel but the bank account said no!
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Yeah, I typically by young and very low mileage used rather than brand new and let someone else pay the a large chunk of the depreciation. The Ram eco-diesel is just so new that it isn' available used. With kids and such I would need the crew cab. That puts a new Ram 1500 SLT 4x4 eco diesel with no additional options north of $42,000 on the sticker. I can get the same truck used with the Hemi, more options, and well under 15k miles for about $28k. According to fueleconomy.gov's numbers it would take me about 12 years to re-coup the difference in price up front, at least for me. lol
 
Thanks everyone - just catching up on all of these now.
I really appreciate everyone's opinions and the math (especially the math - I hate 'rithmetic)

If we bought European, we'd probably be looking at a 2008-2010 with fewer than 75,000 miles. I'd love to get a truck, but unless it's under $3,000 and sits in my side yard, I don't think it's in the cards (wife criteria).

We tend to keep our cars for as long as we can. Assuming they're both properly maintained, do people think the smaller, 3.0L turbodiesel will last longer than say a GM 5.3L V8? (speaking just in terms of the engine and not the car around it)
 
That question might be hard to answer. Isn't the 5.3l eco tech a newer motor? (sorry, not completely up to speed with what GM is doing nowadays). The 3.0l TD was engineered in 2011 and introduced by Chrysler for use in 2014. The TD is a VM Motori motor, which is owned 50% by Fiat (Chryslers parent company) and 50% GM.

Until both motors have a proven track record it will be hard to judge.

Similarly to Eco-boost Ford engine has stunning performance, however not without it's setbacks. That thing tows great (what it was meant for) and it will put you back in your seat, but mpg's aren't always what they advertise with wild swings through the seasons. You would think a turbo would perform well in cold weather. Not so much as they have been know to see under 15mpg in the winter months as opposed to 20+ in the summer. Plus it has had it's share of issues to be worked out as some of the initial F150 ecoboosts started to get some use.
 
Redowl said:
Thanks everyone - just catching up on all of these now.
I really appreciate everyone's opinions and the math (especially the math - I hate 'rithmetic)

If we bought European, we'd probably be looking at a 2008-2010 with fewer than 75,000 miles. I'd love to get a truck, but unless it's under $3,000 and sits in my side yard, I don't think it's in the cards (wife criteria).

We tend to keep our cars for as long as we can. Assuming they're both properly maintained, do people think the smaller, 3.0L turbodiesel will last longer than say a GM 5.3L V8? (speaking just in terms of the engine and not the car around it)
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Buying used is great IMO if you can find an 06 diesel with low mileage I'd jump on it, anything before 06 is pre-new emission regs(DEF).

The 5.3 from Chevy is a great motor and should last along while if maintained properly.

What is the 3.0l diesel in?
 
If you want a small diesel, really a Dodge/Jeep/Chrysler is your best bet. Im not a big Dodge fan as I feel their quality isnt all that good but really any of the American diesels have problems and I agree with GolfinFF that you couldnt pay me to own a Ford with a Powerjoke or Ecoboost engine.
One thing to remember when you are considering a small tow vehicle is braking. Due to their lighter weight, smaller vehicles dont do as well towing because of how much lighter they are.
Another thing to remember with diesels are the ownership costs. You will pay more for the diesel at time of purchase due to how much more expensive the engine is, not to mention fuel is more expensive and you have the potential for much higher maintenance costs over a gas engine.
Im personally not a big diesel fan as I really dont see the benefit of it unless you are going to buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck that you tow with all the time. For me, the added cost in purchase price, fuel cost and maintenance cost (potentially) just dont make it worth it for me.
 
One thing you have to take into consideration with diesels is maintenance cost. My background is on the ag/off-road diesel side.

Injectors are expensive, special engine oil which cost more and often won't be included in the oil change deals.

Also, diesel fuel sucks, at least in the Midwest, running fuel conditioner is mandatory, especially in HPCR systems, and a lubricity additive, ultra low sulfur diesel is dry and causes a lot of problems.

Again, this is from an ag/off-road diesel background.

~Don't practice til you get it right, Practice til you can't get it wrong~
 
golfinFF said:
What is the 3.0l diesel in?
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Chrysler is putting them in 2014 Cherokees and Ram 1500s. I'm not sure the cost in the SUV, but a 5.7l Hemi is about $1500 and the Eco-diesel another $2850 on top of that in the Ram.

I'm kind of curious Badger (not picking a fight, just curious), what would you pull a 9000lb trailer with if you omit Ford or Dodge from the equation? Are you a GM guy? I tend to agree with you about the diesel not being worth it in the end for me as well, but I would look at it more seriously if they were more readily available slightly used.

At the end of the day it can be a difficult decision and may come down to personal taste and quality in the rest of the vehicle. It seams that GM/Chevy has been loosing ground to Ford and Ram in the truck market over the past years, with Ram making the biggest push. Ram has the nicest cabin imho, but you always have to worry about if they have solved transmission issues with the latest 8 speed and will the paint hold up over the long haul. Ford and GM offerings have been stale to me in asthetics and inside the cabin, shy of maybe sync for Ford. We have generally been Ford, with the last 3 vehicles being Mountaineer, Explorer, Expedition. Those 3 have been excellent. The Expedition is newer (2011) and will stay, and the Explorer has given a good service life. It's nearing time to turn over the Explorer for something new and I'm in the market for a pickup. I'm bored of Ford's same styling in everything, unimpressed by the Chevy/GM styling, and nervous about a Ram's longevity.
 
If the 8 speed transmission is the one Chrysler was originally going to put in it, it should be solid. (Transmission built and supplied by ZF in Europe, they are a great company and we rarely had issues with components from them.)

~Don't practice til you get it right, Practice til you can't get it wrong~
 
Rhyno said:
If the 8 speed transmission is the one Chrysler was originally going to put in it, it should be solid. (Transmission built and supplied by ZF in Europe, they are a great company and we rarely had issues with components from them.)


~Don't practice til you get it right, Practice til you can't get it wrong~
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Yes, the new Chrysler 8 speed is ZF. Thanks for pointing that out. That has been known to be a solid transmission on other platforms from Rolls Royce to BMW 760i, to like 23 other models. Hopefully it works out in the truck/4x4 platform as well as it has in others. That is a step in the right direction for RAM and tends to take at least some concern off of known past issues for that vehicle.
 
If your not in a huge rush, Chevy is reintroducing the Colorado and GMC Canyon in 2015 and will be launching a small Durmax for the 2016 model year. They look like really nice trucks, probably going to be looking at them myself.
 
Diesel cars & SUV

Redowl said:
Thank you very much for your reply. We've seen great reviews about the TDI platform, but it is only available from VW, Mercedes and BMW (European manufacturers). We're not opposed the country(ies) of origin, but never considered ourselves 'luxury car' owners. How have your repairs been on the engine and car in general?
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Eh no.

The TDI platform is VAG:
Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat and Porsche (and Bugatti and Ducati and Rolls Royce and I'm probably forgetting some others).
Mercedes and BMW each have their own platforms.

Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese manufacturers have turbo engines that are small too.

I live in Europe, we all think Americans are crazy with their non-turbo big blocks guzzling has like there's no tomorrow. ;)

Look at the BMW 550Md for example: 6-cylinders, over 400bhp, close to 600Nm (f*ckloads of torque).

There are lots of cars that bring good gas mileage and smaller Diesel engines that can still lug around big trailers. :)


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Floor-is said:
Eh no.

The TDI platform is VAG:
Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat and Porsche (and Bugatti and Ducati and Rolls Royce and I'm probably forgetting some others).
Mercedes and BMW each have their own platforms.

Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese manufacturers have turbo engines that are small too.

I live in Europe, we all think Americans are crazy with their non-turbo big blocks guzzling has like there's no tomorrow. ;)

Look at the BMW 550Md for example: 6-cylinders, over 400bhp, close to 600Nm (f*ckloads of torque).

There are lots of cars that bring good gas mileage and smaller Diesel engines that can still lug around big trailers. :)


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The problem being we don't get most of the diesel options here. Example, 5 series is only offered with the smaller displacement diesels. It's rather disappointing.

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