Slow Play is my nemesis

[Smallville]

Penalty isn't built in. It's incentive based to play faster. If a group wanting to play 4.5 hours (15 minutes a hole) goes out first followed by a group wanting 3.5 hours (12 minutes per hole). The 1st group gets an hour head start. That's a 6 minute buffer. While no golf course would wanna space tee times out an hour if it was reversed they could basically start minutes apart with issue. I'm not smart enough to figure out a perfect system but somebody is and I 100% think it'd be a success.

If you are charging by the hour, the penalty is without question built in. Play faster, it's cheaper, play slower, it's more expensive. Built in penalty, built in reward. If it is 10 bucks an hour and they take five hours and slow some people up, you are going to charge them the 50 bucks and an extra $10? $15?

And paying after the fact won't work. You gotta have someone out there making sure people come back in after their round or the course could be giving away a lot of rounds for nothing. And making them pay first, then to come back in to get a refund or penalty is going to be a major pain.

 

[AZArmyGolfer]

We need a system like GHIN to certify pace of play. Courses could then require a certification (like a handicap index) from a player if he or she wants to book a tee time within, say, the first three hours of the day. I've played courses that would not allow players without a course handicap of less than 10 go out before 10 am on the weekend. Yes, handicap does not correlate directly to pace of play better players are more likely to be able to play at a faster pace - fewer lost balls for example.

Anyone from Germany? You must pass a test before you can even play on a German course. Not sure if pace of play is addressed.

 

[tgtt]

If you are charging by the hour, the penalty is without question built in. Play faster, it's cheaper, play slower, it's more expensive. Built in penalty, built in reward. If it is 10 bucks an hour and they take five hours and slow some people up, you are going to charge them the 50 bucks and an extra $10? $15?

And paying after the fact won't work. You gotta have someone out there making sure people come back in after their round or the course could be giving away a lot of rounds for nothing. And making them pay first, then to come back in to get a refund or penalty is going to be a major pain.

I set that rate because that's what the price already is so I don't see it as a penalty. I get what you're saying just don't see it as such and don't think those that wanted to play slower would either since that's what they paid anyway. If they people didn't come in and pay then they're not welcome back. I haven't put enough thought into it to debunk every possible problem. I truly believe it would help eliminate the two biggest issues with the game which is cost and time. I think people would embrace it and naturally work any kinks out along the way. Wouldn't have to spend 10 minutes looking for that ProV this way...

 

[Fourputt]

With that said, do you think (just part of human nature) that we may tend to feel entitled even if not on purpose? When one does things (anything, not just golf) enough times and regularly we simply begin to feel (even if just a tiny bit) a certain degree of entitlement. I think its just part of human nature. So I ask if we really think about it, what makes us so right about time in golf. We have plenty people here who get angry anything more than 4hrs by a minute. People who get angry if its even less than 4hrs but not moving as fast as they would like anyway. Well, what about the "tons" of people out there who are not avid golfers and simply do not feel any issue at all with playing 4n1/2 hours or even closer to 5? Why, how are we so correct that it take no more than 4? What gave me or us the right to dictate that we think 4 hrs is more than enough time for them?

I don't feel that way. I can understand that not everyone plays as fast as I do, but I also know that nobody who is aware of the world around them needs to take 5 hours either. 4½ should be the absolute outside limit for all but the hardest courses, if you can't make that time on a given course, maybe you aren't yet skilled enough to be playing that course. It may sound harsh, but there should be some restrictions based on skill level, if difficulty is what keeps you from maintaining pace.

In much of the country there are plenty of executive length or par 3 courses for beginners to get their feet wet in the game. Someone who can't break 110 on the local muni has no business playing the Sawgrass Stadium course, no matter how determined he may be. Unless a person has a very peculiar mindset, he won't have any fun at all shooting 200 and losing 30 balls (and nobody around him is going to enjoy it either), so why torture yourself.

That is an exaggerated example but it makes my point, and it applies to other courses too. Not every golf course is an appropriate match for every player. I'm realistic enough to know that some types of courses are simply too difficult for me to have any fun on, so I avoid them. A relative beginner may not have enough experience in the game to make smart choices, so maybe he needs somebody to advise him when tries to take too big a step. How that advise should be packaged is still a matter for debate.

 

[Fourputt]

Course would have to help with that. I say our group can play in 2.5 and we want a tee time behind a group that says 4 hours. Tee time should be enough to accommodate (say 15 minute gap instead of 8(haven't done the math)).

I'm sure there would be issues but it's doable and has to be better than how it is now.

Edit: And the discounted rate serves as great motivation. $7-$10 an hour would be fair around here.

The trouble is you won't get discounted rates if they set a larger interval for tee times. You will be charged more because the course still has to make enough to run the course. If you put out fewer players, then the price per player has to go up to break even. If you want fewer players on the course then you have to find the courses which charge $90 and up for 18 holes. That's pretty much the separation point from my experience.

 

[rbarthle17]

Patience is definitely not my strong suit, but I like the idea of turning on/off a switch - I'll try to work on that.

It's not easy to do. You may also try keeping busy. The idea of cleaning clubs or something similar during the wait is a good one.

 

[tgtt]

The trouble is you won't get discounted rates if they set a larger interval for tee times. You will be charged more because the course still has to make enough to run the course. If you put out fewer players, then the price per player has to go up to break even. If you want fewer players on the course then you have to find the courses which charge $90 and up for 18 holes. That's pretty much the separation point from my experience.

I'm not sure it would be fewer players. If we send out faster groups followed by slower groups they could be stacked on top of one another without issue instead of the hour lapse I gave as an example going the other way. We need a math guy to figure it out but someone can. Even if it's predetermined tee times to fit the formula.

I wanna believe it could work!!!!

 

[golf4life]

I hear ya but honestly how do you teach someone who is a 23 handicap and learning the game not to play slow and how do you get though the ego's some low handicapper's have and they don't have to eye up a putt like Tiger and walk off a 35 yard pitch shot.

Sometimes I get paired up with beginners. They'll sometimes apologize to me for their play. I always tell them not too worry, everyone's a beginner at some point and it's certainly nothing to be concerned about. I also tell them it's always ok to play golf badly, just do it fast and no one will ever mind playing with you, even a plus handicapper.

 

[Chip Star]

With all of the battles which go on about motorcycle helmet laws and gun control laws, do you really think that such a program, no matter how it's introduced, would have any chance at all to fly here? Maybe the Germans are more docile, more willing to bow to authority. In the US, that would just be seen as authority overstepping their bounds.

With all of the griping on this forum about unilateral management and enforcement of the Rules of Golf, I can just see the reaction if the next time you go to the course you are told to leave and not come back until you can show your golf license. Good luck with that plan.

Oh noo, I agree lol! Just "something similar" to what/how Germany does "it"
And they're not so "docile" in that way either. Well, maybe a wee bit less than us Americans .. but they went to high, high places
to get the gov. to keep the "autobahn no speed limit" or whatever agreement was finally reached .. but in some places on the autobahn,
there IS no speed limit .. cities and rural areas are certainly under "limits" of course, and understandably so .. and, actually,
as it has been for a long time anyway .. same with the golf thing.
It's been done for so long, that's it's like second nature and not so much thought about .. that much. I dunno .. I thought it was fine.
And they always seemed to be busy .. so, yeah .. I only brought up the autobahn thing because I just compared it to the motorcycle/guns mention.

When the gov in Germany wanted to enforce a speed limit across the board .. the auto "enthusiast" went balaistic lol! And motorcyclists also! :clap:

 

[Fourputt]

Oh noo, I agree lol! Just "something similar" to what/how Germany does "it"
And they're not so "docile" in that way either. Well, maybe a wee bit less than us Americans .. but they went to high, high places
to get the gov. to keep the "autobahn no speed limit" or whatever agreement was finally reached .. but in some places on the autobahn,
there IS no speed limit .. cities and rural areas are certainly under "limits" of course, and understandably so .. and, actually,
as it has been for a long time anyway .. same with the golf thing.
It's been done for so long, that's it's like second nature and not so much thought about .. that much. I dunno .. I thought it was fine.
And they always seemed to be busy .. so, yeah .. I only brought up the autobahn thing because I just compared it to the motorcycle/guns mention.

When the gov in Germany wanted to enforce a speed limit across the board .. the auto "enthusiast" went balaistic lol! And motorcyclists also! :clap:

When I lived in Montana there was no daytime speed limit on the highways. When the federal government instituted the 55 mph limit, Montana ignored it. The feds threatened to hold back highway funds. Montana instituted a $5 fine with no points. The feds made the same threat. Montana finally knuckled under, but for a long time, individual highway patrol officers still ignored it. The last time I was up there in 2004, I was twice seen by patrolmen when I was well over the posted limit, and all they did was flash their lights at me.

I see the same sort of resistance to any such attempt to regulate the golfing public. We prize our individual freedoms too much, and are paranoid about losing even the smallest of them.

 

[Dogman]

What's funny is when people show up and are shocked they can't go out, and then ask how long it will be. It will be when the frost goes away. Kinda like when people ask golf courses if it's going to rain.

We get those calls all the time. "It's raining really hard here, what's it doing there?" "Raining." "When is it going to quit?" "I don't know. It's supposed to rain all day." "Really? When's it going to quit?" And it becomes an endless loop.

 

[Smallville]

We get those calls all the time. "It's raining really hard here, what's it doing there?" "Raining." "When is it going to quit?" "I don't know. It's supposed to rain all day." "Really? When's it going to quit?" And it becomes an endless loop.

A little off topic, but this is hilarious:


[video=youtube;0-33QC7xI-g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-33QC7xI-g[/video]

 

[tgtt]

Smalls, that was great!!!

 

[Dogman]

This never, ever happens on my home course. Your tee time is your tee time. If your group isn't all present and ready to go when you are up, then you go short handed or you don't go at all. We never, ever stack groups on the first tee like some poorly managed courses seem to do. I've never even seen such a thing any place I've ever played. You go off on time or you wait until there is another opening in the tee sheet. Period.

There is one exception and that's for a frost delay. In that case, the course does two things. On is that during that time of year, we don't take reservations for the amount of time that the frost delay usually stops play. Second is that if the delay runs longer than the time that is blocked off, all times are pushed back by and equal amount, so that once play begins, it still flows at a norm a pace. We will try to get back on schedule by blocking any open times on the sheet, grouping twosomes together, etc., to get back on schedule. Those days are a pain in the butt for the starter (me) but it's something we deal with in Colorado during fall, winter and spring. We still don't back up the first tee beyond the unavoidable frost adjustment.

You totally missed the point. The 10 group is not late, they now have to wait because the course is so backed up from slow play from the start, and too many tee times. They get pushed back. They are all present, but waiting on others. It's happened that way. People that play 5 hour golf can't be done with the first hole in 10-15 minures, so everyone waits on them. All day. Eventually you lose a couple of tee times. They are pushed so far back, that people leave. They tell everyone about slow play. That costs business.

 

[rollin]

I don't feel that way. I can understand that not everyone plays as fast as I do, but I also know that nobody who is aware of the world around them needs to take 5 hours either. 4½ should be the absolute outside limit for all but the hardest courses, if you can't make that time on a given course, maybe you aren't yet skilled enough to be playing that course. It may sound harsh, but there should be some restrictions based on skill level, if difficulty is what keeps you from maintaining pace.

In much of the country there are plenty of executive length or par 3 courses for beginners to get their feet wet in the game. Someone who can't break 110 on the local muni has no business playing the Sawgrass Stadium course, no matter how determined he may be. Unless a person has a very peculiar mindset, he won't have any fun at all shooting 200 and losing 30 balls (and nobody around him is going to enjoy it either), so why torture yourself.

That is an exaggerated example but it makes my point, and it applies to other courses too. Not every golf course is an appropriate match for every player. I'm realistic enough to know that some types of courses are simply too difficult for me to have any fun on, so I avoid them. A relative beginner may not have enough experience in the game to make smart choices, so maybe he needs somebody to advise him when tries to take too big a step. How that advise should be packaged is still a matter for debate.

There is perhaps a way of helping the situation "when or if" poor play would be the cause for slow play. It has been mentioned but perhaps having a max on the holes score. An 8 for a P4, or 9 on P5, and 6 on P3. A player would simply pick up at that point "if" its causing slow play. In fact they would if properly educated about it, also pick up at lets say when at 6 strokes but while still being left with a significant approach distance. The player is perhaps 150 away and on his 6th shot. Well, then just pick up anyway because he'll have at least two more shots left anyway so further hitting is a moot point. This would cure a lot if poor play is why a person or group is much too slow.

But like all other possible rules it does have some flaws and issues. One can actually score an 8 or even 9 or 10 on a given hole and yet still be on respectable pace or still be in contention to shoot a new PB or very good round except for this one hole. In that case he still wants to keep an honest score. But that's then just a matter of using discretion. Has it been this way all day and the total scoring is ridiculous? If so just pick it up. Has it been and is it causing too much delay? if so pick it up. Are you unable to keep respectable pace with the group ahead because of it? have they advanced too far ahead because of it? if so then pick it up. This would eliminate "when and if" poor play is the issue. It doesn't always have to be and is often wrongfully and automatically assumed to be the reason. But when it is, this should help a lot and would also enhance awareness that one is taking far too much time because of it and would work even if he is playing the wrong tees too.

 

[Fourputt]

You totally missed the point. The 10 group is not late, they now have to wait because the course is so backed up from slow play from the start, and too many tee times. They get pushed back. They are all present, but waiting on others. It's happened that way. People that play 5 hour golf can't be done with the first hole in 10-15 minures, so everyone waits on them. All day. Eventually you lose a couple of tee times. They are pushed so far back, that people leave. They tell everyone about slow play. That costs business.

No, I did not miss the point. In 40 years I've never experienced this on any course I've ever played, certainly not on the one I call my home course, and where I worked as a starter for 5 years. Any group already seen having that big a problem on the first hole will be seeing the ranger by the time they get to the second tee. The gap will be pointed out to them and they will be told to catch up. If they fail to do so promptly, they will be asked to pick up and move forward to their proper place. If they have a problem with that, then they will be asked to leave, and the course will refund their money. But this would be an extreme case.

This almost never happens because the first hole is a pretty straightforward, medium length par 4 with no serious trouble. Even with the staggered 8 and 9 minute spacings that we use before 10:30 AM, one group is usually up to the green before the next time is on the tee. The par 5 2nd hole sometimes has a short delay because of the classic situation of the guy who just hit a 240 yard drive waiting for the green to clear before he hits his 260 yard 3W. The course generally moves quite well as long as the ranger on duty is on the ball and keeps close track of the flow in the front 9.

 

[Chip Star]

Ha! You even make mention of it in your "sig" Rick .. I just noticed this ..

"Your place on the course is right behind the group in front of you, not right in front of the group behind you."

I thought this was pretty funny also! Don't you know .. he "missed" that tee shot, and if he "gets a hold of that 3W" .. :twist:

The par 5 2nd hole sometimes has a short delay because of the classic situation of the guy who just hit a 240 yard drive waiting for the green to clear before he hits his 260 yard 3W.

 

[moosejaa]

Had a round yesterday where I took a half day off from work. Played the front in about 90 minutes.
Back 9 took almost 3 hours. Got stuck behind a foursome and waited on every shot.
They didn't even offer to let us play through and there was no one in front of them.
They were always just off the tee when we got there. It was a muni and this was a "jeans and t-shirt" group.
Don't know if that really matters but I was so aggravated by the time we finished and I had some bad shots because of it. Had to pick my kids up from my parents afterwards which made it even worse.

 

[Smallville]

Had a round yesterday where I took a half day off from work. Played the front in about 90 minutes.
Back 9 took almost 3 hours. Got stuck behind a foursome and waited on every shot.
They didn't even offer to let us play through and there was no one in front of them.
They were always just off the tee when we got there. It was a muni and this was a "jeans and t-shirt" group.
Don't know if that really matters but I was so aggravated by the time we finished and I had some bad shots because of it. Had to pick my kids up from my parents afterwards which made it even worse.

You never saw a marshall? I would have called the clubhouse to have them send someone out.

 

[moosejaa]

You never saw a marshall? I would have called the clubhouse to have them send someone out.

Nope, never saw one. I always forget about calling the clubhouse too, next time.
I kept thinking they'd do the right thing on the "next" hole but they never did.

 

[Smallville]

Nope, never saw one. I always forget about calling the clubhouse too, next time.
I kept thinking they'd do the right thing on the "next" hole but they never did.

We played a week or so ago and I never saw the marshall (on a Saturday!) He claimed he was out there, but we never saw him go by us one time in 4 hours.

 

[moosejaa]

We played a week or so ago and I never saw the marshall (on a Saturday!) He claimed he was out there, but we never saw him go by us one time in 4 hours.

I honestly rarely if ever see Marshalls out on the courses I usually play.

 

[Fourputt]

We played a week or so ago and I never saw the marshall (on a Saturday!) He claimed he was out there, but we never saw him go by us one time in 4 hours.

If you played in 4 hours, then he probably figured he didn't need to be seen by you. :act-up:

 

[Smallville]

If you played in 4 hours, then he probably figured he didn't need to be seen by you. :act-up:

Other than it was 1-1/2 hours for one nine and 2-1/2 hours for the other nine, I might agree with you!

 

[blugold]

Other than it was 1-1/2 hours for one nine and 2-1/2 hours for the other nine, I might agree with you!

4 hours total sounds fine to me. Regardless of what the split is