The Driver. Most forgiving yet hardest to hit? or are there other reasons?

[Darren37]

I haven't tried out any of my golf clubs before buying online but I love my Cleveland Classic 270 driver. I just learn to love what I buy off the internet after doing much research about the club and getting a bargain as well helps. I'm very new to the sport but I'm learning not to take it so seriously like many do. I haven't kept score yet and don't plan on it in the near future. I've got plenty to learn as a newbie but I'm having fun along the way just getting out there and playing. Shaft length and all the little details to become better are very fine tunes I don't understand yet but I'm only concerned with hitting the ball straight and long. My belief is that it really doesn't matter the club/shaft as much as it is the person swinging the club. It's easier for me to hit the driver than it is my irons. At least my starter irons.

 

[Paladin]

So if that's the case why do most manufactures make the drivers longer?? Is it because you can cut it down to whatever you want or they think you can can hit longer distances with a longer driver?

One thing is that OEMs have come a long way in making more of the face function more like the sweet spot. So dead-center precision isn't as necessary as it used to be to produce favorable results, as I understand it. Thus, the OEMs feel the shaft can be longer and thereby faster.

As to why the driver can be both the most forgiving due to its construction while still being the hardest to hit, I think the combination of an excess of tweaks a player makes to his address/swing when hitting driver and tension that creeps into the swing causes people to simply swing differently. Always interesting to hear people say they've got a totally different shot shape with their driver than with the rest of their bag, including their fairway woods.

 

[toughestsoldier]

I think because people don't make the exact same swing with their driver as they do the rest of the bag their driver can get them into trouble. I hit down with every club in my bag accept my driver so when I draw my 3 wood or my pitching wedge I know what the swing feel. I know my driver is gotten in trouble a few times because I don't exactly know what the feel is I'm looking for. Comfort goes a long way to being consistent

 

[-CRW-]

You are on the right track with what you are saying. Higher loft usually means more backspin will be produced and backspin trumps sidespin. When you start getting into the lower lofts your shots are more ceceptable to side spin. This is one reason that fitters recommend that you hit as high of a lofted driver as you possible can. Higher loft=less side spin= more accuracy. The key is to find the loft that gives you a compromise between max accuracy and max distance.

I don't totally understand, but it doesn't work exactly this way - or at least not every time. Side spin doesn't exist, only backspin on a tilted axis. That being said, backspin combined with "side spin" or the angle off-line increases total spin. For example, I'm a high launch/high spin player that needs heavy stiff shafts with low torque. So even with the TP stiff shaft in the SLDR driver (which is supposed to be low spin), I was getting over 4000 rpm on some hits and because of the way I was approaching the ball I was getting a total spin of around 4500 rpm. The results were a ball way off-line and robbed of distance (around 235 yards with around a 100mph swing speed).

I struggle with the driver but can modify my set up by grounding the club head around 6 inches or more behind the ball. This technique on the monitor results typically in square contact that is around 2500 total spin, not too far offline, and travels farther at around 250 total distance. The problem with this is that the same swing speed is slower at contact because the majority of my power is at the bottom of my swing or milliseconds after, and the technique has me hitting 6 or more inches after the bottom of my swing. The monitor usually goes from 100-105 mph to 90-95mph. Which is crazy because I hit my 7 iron at 90-95 mph confirmed on monitors - but I ground the 7i immediately behind the ball and thus am at the peak of my swing at or near contact with the 7i. And with this technique if I have the ball a hair too far forward, I get a pull - a problem I don't have with my 7 iron (though I used to have this problem - but that's another story).

SO, all that was to say that I think the progressively increased ball speed and total distance seen as you decrease loft through irons to long irons to woods to driver results in the effects of swing flaws being exaggerated. Not that it necessarily increases side spin or axis tilt due to decreased back spin. I'm not opposed to that idea, and think its possible, but I haven't come across any proven research indicating such. Plus, the guys behind ball flight monitors must have done some research disproving this idea (at least to some degree) since they have a formula to increase your total spin regardless if back spin is high or low when calculating total spin. I'd like to see the formula because maybe it's written so that "side spin" affects total spin more as back spin is lowered.

 

[jochan90]

I think because people don't make the exact same swing with their driver as they do the rest of the bag their driver can get them into trouble. I hit down with every club in my bag accept my driver so when I draw my 3 wood or my pitching wedge I know what the swing feel. I know my driver is gotten in trouble a few times because I don't exactly know what the feel is I'm looking for. Comfort goes a long way to being consistent

The one thing I aim to do that the pros do, consistent set up. Setting up consistently has led to better swings and contact throughout the bag.

 

[-CRW-]

Here is a quote on a ball flight study that explains the loft issue better than I can:

Two factors can tilt the spin axis - i) a divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact; and ii) an off-center hit.


As a rough approximation, a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead path (at impact) will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 2 degrees (for an iron) and 4 degrees (for a driver). The reason for this difference is that a driver has a lower dynamic loft than an iron (eg. driver has ~50% of a 6-iron's loft). The lower the loft of the club, the narrower the size of the D-plane wedge, and the more the D-plane will be tilted sideways for a certain finite size of the divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead at impact.


An off-center hit also produces a tilt of the spin axis by imparting side-spin to the ball via the gear-effect. The following diagram demonstrates the gear effect.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

 

[-CRW-]

I'd like to see the formula because maybe it's written so that "side spin" affects total spin more as back spin is lowered.

And apparently this is correct according to the same study posted above:

According to Frederick Tuxen of the Trackman company, the amount of produced side-spin (due to a certain degree of off-center hit) is the same for all clubs (in terms of the amount of rpm of side-spin), but it will have a greater effect on a driver, which produces a lower spin rate than a short iron. For example, if the off-center hit produces 500 rpm of sidespin, and a driver produces a spin rate of 2,500 rpm while a short iron produces a spin rate of 10,000 rpm, then it should be obvious that that an off-center hit will affect a driver's ball flight more than a short iron's ball flight.


According to Fred Tuxen of the Trackman company, an off-center hit of 1 dimple (0.14") will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 6 degrees in a driver and 2 degrees in a 6-iron. That's a surprispingly large effect - equivalent to a 1.5 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a driver, and a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a 6-iron.

 

[blugold]

I don't totally understand, but it doesn't work exactly this way - or at least not every time. Side spin doesn't exist, only backspin on a tilted axis. That being said, backspin combined with "side spin" or the angle off-line increases total spin. For example, I'm a high launch/high spin player that needs heavy stiff shafts with low torque. So even with the TP stiff shaft in the SLDR driver (which is supposed to be low spin), I was getting over 4000 rpm on some hits and because of the way I was approaching the ball I was getting a total spin of around 4500 rpm. The results were a ball way off-line and robbed of distance (around 235 yards with around a 100mph swing speed).

I struggle with the driver but can modify my set up by grounding the club head around 6 inches or more behind the ball. This technique on the monitor results typically in square contact that is around 2500 total spin, not too far offline, and travels farther at around 250 total distance. The problem with this is that the same swing speed is slower at contact because the majority of my power is at the bottom of my swing or milliseconds after, and the technique has me hitting 6 or more inches after the bottom of my swing. The monitor usually goes from 100-105 mph to 90-95mph. Which is crazy because I hit my 7 iron at 90-95 mph confirmed on monitors - but I ground the 7i immediately behind the ball and thus am at the peak of my swing at or near contact with the 7i. And with this technique if I have the ball a hair too far forward, I get a pull - a problem I don't have with my 7 iron (though I used to have this problem - but that's another story).

SO, all that was to say that I think the progressively increased ball speed and total distance seen as you decrease loft through irons to long irons to woods to driver results in the effects of swing flaws being exaggerated. Not that it necessarily increases side spin or axis tilt due to decreased back spin. I'm not opposed to that idea, and think its possible, but I haven't come across any proven research indicating such. Plus, the guys behind ball flight monitors must have done some research disproving this idea (at least to some degree) since they have a formula to increase your total spin regardless if back spin is high or low when calculating total spin. I'd like to see the formula because maybe it's written so that "side spin" affects total spin more as back spin is lowered.

Do you have launch angle numbers as well? Hopefully and angle of attack? With the much spin creates you have to be coming over the top and hitting down on the ball. Just a guess though. If that is your swing, you are deloft in the driver. Hitting it like a big 4iron

 

[ShanksaloT]

This is a very interesting topic. I gamed the Burner 2.0 superfast for about 4 months when it first came out. I wasn't consistent with it however during the few times I hit it in the screws it went for miles. I wasn't consistent with it enough to truly love it.

My frIend who is 6'3 hits it much mire consistently. Ultimately, I think a 46' driver is a bit too long for the weekend warrior golfer...

 

[rollin]

What's that book everyone was talking about not so long ago about the facts presented by the PGA stats and how they prove strategies - Every Shot Counts - or something like that. In it I think the author points out that the Driver has the most forgiving technology in it than any other club and that stats indicate that stepping down to a 3-wood is a mistake.

I think that comes up in the discussion about shots-gained is a more meaningful stat than others like fairway percentage.

Made sense. Wouldn't have the stats to agree or disagree.

Must remember that talking PGA pro is a lot different from the average bogey golfer weekend hacker. Two completely different players. I know the ideas are technically supose to all be the same but honestly 99% of all golfers cannot do what the pros do. They are extremely talented and gifted of course. The mishits they suffer are far less often and far less of the time and also hardly ever as far off center. Even much better amateurs and weekend hackers can be worlds apart from the average player in their ability to hit more consistent strikes imo. They actually can even over swing if they chose to get something extra and still end up with satisfactory results more often then not while the average player struggles to be consistent with just an average swing.

So i think a lot of stats need to be put in perspective and applying them to the average hacker may not be just so simple. Most of us simply can not do what we please with the driver as the pros and even some real good amateurs can and even though may be most forgiving club we just dont hit it nearly as close to the sweatspot nor as often and are probably too far off center too many of those times. Even when we are on or close to center we still may do other things wrong in the swing resulting in poor shots. Most average hackers are simply much too erratic with this club and probably for a number of reasons that over shadow its forgiveness.

With that said, I think is why there have always been a huge amount of people who played or currently play their 3w better than their driver even though the logic (or even the science) says that shouldnt be the case. Whether its the club legnth as being discussed, or the mental mistakes they make with it , or other reasons, it still usually ends up the harder club for a ton of people.

 

[Martsy]

there is no doubt in my mind that i'm more accurate with my driver than my 3W or 5W...I'm not sure if this is confidence making it reality, or reality making me confident...but it's pretty much driver or iron off every tee box for me right now. (and frankly, I think i even feel better about driver than my 4i too).

 

[-CRW-]

Do you have launch angle numbers as well? Hopefully and angle of attack? With the much spin creates you have to be coming over the top and hitting down on the ball. Just a guess though. If that is your swing, you are deloft in the driver. Hitting it like a big 4iron

The specific hits I mentioned were all between 12.5 and 14 degrees in launch angle with a 10.5 SLDR head set to 12. I don't have the other number but prior to that my numbers were usually 1-2 degrees outside to in with an open club face of varying degrees due to rotating the face open on my backswing.

I mentioned the data from this particular round of hits for me just to say that a ton of backspin can't resist being tilted off axis enough to save a bad swing.

 

[blugold]

The specific hits I mentioned were all between 12.5 and 14 degrees in launch angle with a 10.5 SLDR head set to 12. I don't have the other number but prior to that my numbers were usually 1-2 degrees outside to in with an open club face of varying degrees due to rotating the face open on my backswing.

I mentioned the data from this particular round of hits for me just to say that a ton of backspin can't resist being tilted off axis enough to save a bad swing.

I agree with this completely, for whatever it's worth.

 

[Philly]

Good discussion.

My biggest problem with the driver is I like to hit down on shots. This is not how you are to hit the driver (per instructors as well as people trying to sell me a driver).
So one issue is that the driver is in fact a unique and different swing. My descending angle produces very high shots that have zero to negative roll (265 carry, total yards, 263).
Less loft and longer shafts mean misses...miss worse (Driver to 2 hybrid, to 5i, to 8i...etc) in absolute terms

But comparred to a 3 wood, the head size (for me) overcomes the length and loft and need for a "unique" swing.
A 3W off the deck is a shot I reserve for scrambles or skins where there is not bet on the overall score.

I will also add most people are better mathmatically in absolute terms vs. realtive terms.
A poor wedge from 100 yards can be off by 10% in distance and hooked and still get a decent result ("Your Dancing").
That same swing with the driver is likely a re-tee and hit 3. ("I don't know...you MIGHT find it over there")

 

[rollin]

Good discussion.

My biggest problem with the driver is I like to hit down on shots. This is not how you are to hit the driver (per instructors as well as people trying to sell me a driver).
So one issue is that the driver is in fact a unique and different swing. My descending angle produces very high shots that have zero to negative roll (265 carry, total yards, 263).
Less loft and longer shafts mean misses...miss worse (Driver to 2 hybrid, to 5i, to 8i...etc) in absolute terms

But comparred to a 3 wood, the head size (for me) overcomes the length and loft and need for a "unique" swing.
A 3W off the deck is a shot I reserve for scrambles or skins where there is not bet on the overall score.

I will also add most people are better mathmatically in absolute terms vs. realtive terms.
A poor wedge from 100 yards can be off by 10% in distance and hooked and still get a decent result ("Your Dancing").
That same swing with the driver is likely a re-tee and hit 3. ("I don't know...you MIGHT find it over there")

To the hilighted above, Many instructors will say its all the same swing and also "Tadashi" (i believe I remember correctly) has also said that too. However, many people will not feel that way. Some will even feel like fw's differ from irons differ from driver differ from hybrids etc... Some will say yes and some no. I'm not syaing what right or wrong but I do know one difference is releasing the hands with the driver and leading with the hands for irons, another is hitting down vs up or middle etc. So there are differences but they may or may not be considered a different swing. that nmay still be the same I guess.

But again (and what i think may be part of this whole driver issues topic) is that things can be different for better players vs most of the rest. The more erratic (and less consistent) a player is with his/her swinging, the more they would probably suffer with the longer club. They really (me too) dont have imo a very good consistent sound swing. If they did they would be one of the better players.

 

[Erky]

You get to tee the driver up.

 

[Mountain Slicer]

The things that I've noticed the most, and I'll guilty myself, we always seem to fall for the newest , greatest because of the same promises made each year by the companies that we put our trust in. I can find a driver that fit me in on the sim but when you get out there in the real world you just find it hard to deal with the mental challenges, weather conditions, pond or river in front of you, horns blowing, etc.. We hear every year, THE LONGEST YET, The Most Accurate Driver Ever! Ok, if all this true why is it the same problems and repeated 2nd shots are needed? Yes, I can say that my current driver, X2Hot , is more forgiving, gives similar distance and this together increases my confidence off the tee. Now if I compare it to my previous drivers, I do get less slicing, but I find I have to tee it much lower than before or I get a pop up, if I'm not real careful I can hit a hook just by a slight turn of the club. So I do think the struggles with my driver sometimes exceed my thoughts to the point it effects the rest of my game more than it should. I don't have a sim close by to go see how the spin rate is, and frankly not sure I understand it enough to know which is the better way. Sunday I was having a good front 9 and shot 40, hit a bad tee shot on 10 and finished with a 87. My tee shots made my seconds shots difficult and I know that I let that mess with my mind, so is the mental game or the challenge of getting better with the new driver every year or two?

 

[Speedliner]

Must remember that talking PGA pro is a lot different from the average bogey golfer weekend hacker. Two completely different players. I know the ideas are technically supose to all be the same but honestly 99% of all golfers cannot do what the pros do.

I agree completely. In the book he presents amateur stats as well and I think his conclusion is the same. I shouldn't say though since I set it aside and haven't gotten back to it.

Everyone's different though. I've always been more comfortable with a driver and a ball on a tee than a long iron or FW from a tee box. Always confident with my drivers. Maybe I should start putting with it!

 

[semi]

This is a very interesting topic. I gamed the Burner 2.0 superfast for about 4 months when it first came out. I wasn't consistent with it however during the few times I hit it in the screws it went for miles. I wasn't consistent with it enough to truly love it.

My frIend who is 6'3 hits it much mire consistently. Ultimately, I think a 46' driver is a bit too long for the weekend warrior golfer...

same here. Started in golf with that stupid thing. I couldn't hit is with any consistency. but when i did hit it well it do go a long ways.

i think alot of people struggle with the driver because they think they have to kill the ball every time. I know i still struggle with that. i want a long straight drive and how else am i going to do that??? i gotta swing for the hills. But in reality, a nice even slower swing creates way more consistency for me without much of a distance loss.

 

[ball striker]

Easily the most forgiving driver I own is a forged aluminum Orlimar ATS. Down the center every time it just lacks the pop and distance of a titanium offering. I can still get it out there past 270 though. Just way to flimsy with the stock uniflex in a driver shaft. Loll. Guess that's why I only paid 12 bucks for it brand new on the bay.

 

[rollin]

Easily the most forgiving driver I own is a forged aluminum Orlimar ATS. Down the center every time it just lacks the pop and distance of a titanium offering. I can still get it out there past 270 though. Just way to flimsy with the stock uniflex in a driver shaft. Loll. Guess that's why I only paid 12 bucks for it brand new on the bay.

sounds to me like the best 12 bucks ever spent
down the center and past 270? Id say 260 to 280 and down the center evry time is more than adiquette on most holes on most courses. Why even use anthing else? Unless a reachable par 5. Or the ocassional real long par4. And even then if its a dogleg 260 to 280 cutting across the corner should also again be much more than adiquette. I only comment because you post as though you do not like it at all. Almost as if to make fun of it in a way but yet its long and down the center all day? Not really much to make fun of about it is there?

 

[ShanksaloT]

same here. Started in golf with that stupid thing. I couldn't hit is with any consistency. but when i did hit it well it do go a long ways.

i think alot of people struggle with the driver because they think they have to kill the ball every time. I know i still struggle with that. i want a long straight drive and how else am i going to do that??? i gotta swing for the hills. But in reality, a nice even slower swing creates way more consistency for me without much of a distance loss.

Exactly!!

 

[Badger_Golfer]

Im actually way more confident with my driver than I am with a fairway wood or hybrid simply because of how big the head is. IMO, where people run into trouble with the driver is that with every other club, they have a very specific distance that they expect to hit it, so they are more likely to swing within themselves.
With the driver, the distance is, "as far as possible" so they are more likely to swing out of their shoes and get themselves in trouble.
Personally, with the driver, my aim is to hit it 225 yards and down the middle of the fairway; so I just make a nice, easy swing.

 

[pollock21]

Although drivers are lower lofted, they are also the highest MOI and have bulge and roll. All designed to add forgiveness and help straighten you out. I decided to add my .02 in here since I see similar threads pop up all the time about folks talking about getting these new deep 3 woods and hitting it better than their driver. We always measure ourselves to tour pros for some reason, and if the tour average for a driver is 44.5-45", then that is the average for the best ball strikers on the planet. The best scratch golfers on here can't sniff their shorts.

IMO, driver length is the number one reason, hands down, that so many struggle with their drivers. Harder to time the swing, square the face, release the club, etc. The longer you go, the harder it is to hit. Manufacturers have done us no favors pumping out drivers at 46-46.5" just to claim additional length.

I see folks dump their drivers for a 3 deep or similar and claim great improvements. Which is funny to me, because the pros that play these "mini drivers" actually use them so they can work the ball more right to left or left to right because it's harder to do with modern drivers because they are so forgiving. So it seems counterintuitive for amateurs to dump their driver for a club that is less forgiving and yield better results. So what does this tell us? Why are they seeing better results with a less forgiving club? It's simple folks, it's shorter.

And CRW, I was about to make the point as well, but you covered it for me. The ball only spins on one axis folks. Side spin and back spin are only ways to explain in numbers the single axis that the ball rotates on. I think a lot of folks see these numbers on a monitor and don't really understand what is going on.

The only downside to a driver's accuracy compared to a 3 wood is that you're hitting the ball farther. The same cut shot off a driver is going to travel farther to the right than that 3 wood simply because it's traveling farther and in the air longer.

 

[ball striker]

sounds to me like the best 12 bucks ever spent
down the center and past 270? Id say 260 to 280 and down the center evry time is more than adiquette on most holes on most courses. Why even use anthing else? Unless a reachable par 5. Or the ocassional real long par4. And even then if its a dogleg 260 to 280 cutting across the corner should also again be much more than adiquette. I only comment because you post as though you do not like it at all. Almost as if to make fun of it in a way but yet its long and down the center all day? Not really much to make fun of about it is there?

I am making fun of it. I'm a punch 2 and can get it out there past 300 on most drives. Got to really swing from the butt with the Orlimar and I can use my Wilson or my Cleveland Launcher and put a nice smooth swing on the tee box without slipping a disc and get better results. Just not as accurate. The Orlimar is cheap, made with cheap materials and you can certainly feel it but dang it goes straight down the center. If I was younger, had a better back and didn't care what my equipment felt like then I probably would game it more often.