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The Scratch Golfer Awakens

ShotScope
leftshot said:
Interesting article by Golfwrx today relating to our discussion. http://www.golfwrx.com/335398/review-navigator-by-dirty-larry-golf/

While the purpose of the article was a review of a putting aid, what I found most enlightening was the data that shows that you only have to be a couple degrees off of square to miss a putt.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Looks like just what I needed. This should help me stop aiming right of target and hitting the ball with an open club face.

Kool.

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Sure. Just write down a lot of 3s and 4s on your score card. Easy.
 
In 2000-2001 I went from around a 10 to a 5 in a year... from consistently low 80's to consistent mid 70's. But I was working with a former tour pro, doing constant video swing analysis, did a complete overhaul of my swing in the winter (learned how to lag and properly release)... it was a lot of effort. But I broke par for the first time, and put myself on track for the next several years to consistent 70's. I had a fundamentally sound and consistently repeatable swing, and practiced a lot. Then I moved to Mississippi and all but quit playing for 13 years, except for a flourish of intense playing for one-two weeks in the summer when I was on vacation. But I did keep shooting in the 70's and by the end of my vacations I was always shooting right at par and sometimes below... so that was decent maintenance, I think.That lasted til about 2010, when I really did quit playing. Now I'm back in the Carolinas, and am having to regain all that I lost while I was in Mississippi. My best round this past year was 76, and most of my rounds are in the 80's. But, like you, I HAVE A DREAM! My goal is to get my game back and finally break into the 60's.


I don't know about a 10-week plan, but I do have some ideas on improving your game, that you might be able to fit into a 10 week plan of some kind.
So, from a Has-Been to a Wanna-Be, this is what I say....


1. Keep a golf diary when you play. Nothing fancy, use a cheap notebook. One page per hole.Write down your lie, your club, your goal, your result. Do this a few times and it will give you an accurate picture of what you ARE doing.You'll identify your strengths and weaknesses in every aspect of your game. You can also use something like Gamegolf or Arccos to help track your performance.


2. Play a round where you play aggressively on everything, go for every shot if you've got a chance, no layups, all or nothing. Always hit driver, go for the pin,always try to sink every putt, etc. Then play a round where you play every shot safe and smart. Don't try to bomb it, club down on your drives if necessary, club up on your approaches, layup rather than hit the wood over the lake, go for the middle of the green instead of the pin, lag your chips and long putts, etc. Compare the results to figure out what best suits your game in what situation. Gotta figure out where you fit in with those mistresses Risk and Reward. On a slow day you might be able to do this all at once... play two balls, one aggressive and one safe.


3. Every once in a while,play your own personal 2 ball captain's choice round. Hit two balls for every shot, and take the best one. This will give you a reasonable picture of your then current max potential. Take special note of where you were able to improve on your second shot. This will build your confidence, and reveal the mental errors you commonly make when playing. Most mistakes are made BEFORE you swing the club.Figure out the mental mistakes you are prone to make, and then you can safeguard against them. (I did this last week, and shot a 67 at my local course, but knowing that I gained about 10 strokes from replays... 4 on putts, a few on pitches, and a few on the long game.Almost all mental... misjudging distance or break, being too aggressive, not accounting for wind or slope, etc.)


4. It sounds like you need a good golfer to work with you on your short game technique.
A. Post some videos hereof your short game.... front and side of pitches and putts. It might help. Most high handicappers scoop their chips and pitches, when they should be hitting down on the ball, and they put backspin on their putts when they should be hitting up on the ball to create topspin.If your technique is fine, then the problem is all mental... shot choice, green reading, feel&distance control, etc... which leads to....
B. This question: Where do you typically miss your short game shots? Left, right, long, or short... above the hole or below the hole? If you don't know already, then that golf diary will let you know. This will tell you what you need to work on in regards to the mental aspect of your short game.


5. Enjoy practice. Ben Hogan spoke of the pure physical pleasure of hitting a golf ball. I thoroughly enjoy practicing, whether its on the putting green or chipping or sandwork or full shots. It's just a pleasure to hit a golf ball.


6. I've gotta ask about your distance and swing speed. How far do you hit your driver? How far do you hit your 7 iron? You may need to work on strengthening your core, and do some overspeed training, that kind of thing. If you don't know your distance, on a 400 yard par 4, what would you typically hit on your second shot... how far out would you be?
 
Last edited:
There are two major facets to developing athletic skills.

The obvious part is of course effort--making the effort to learn how to both use and take care of your physical toolbox.

The trickier part is the toolbox itself. Our physical attributes, potentials, and limitations are an accident of birth.

We're not all born with the potential to play to a zero or a plus index.

I took a few lessons and banged plenty of balls to be an eight back in the day.
Maybe if I didn't have to have a job and contribute to raising the kids, I could have been a five for the very peak of my recreational golf years.
I honestly don't believe that a scratch player ever existed inside this now geriatric body.
A scratch talker, maybe. I could always talk one hell of a good game!
 
Hamfist said:
Sure. Just write down a lot of 3s and 4s on your score card. Easy.
Click to expand...
Hey Now. No Cheating

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BluesManDan said:
In 2000-2001 I went from around a 10 to a 5 in a year... from consistently low 80's to consistent mid 70's. But I was working with a former tour pro, doing constant video swing analysis, did a complete overhaul of my swing in the winter (learned how to lag and properly release)... it was a lot of effort. But I broke par for the first time, and put myself on track for the next several years to consistent 70's. I had a fundamentally sound and consistently repeatable swing, and practiced a lot. Then I moved to Mississippi and all but quit playing for 13 years, except for a flourish of intense playing for one-two weeks in the summer when I was on vacation. But I did keep shooting in the 70's and by the end of my vacations I was always shooting right at par and sometimes below... so that was decent maintenance, I think.That lasted til about 2010, when I really did quit playing. Now I'm back in the Carolinas, and am having to regain all that I lost while I was in Mississippi. My best round this past year was 76, and most of my rounds are in the 80's. But, like you, I HAVE A DREAM! My goal is to get my game back and finally break into the 60's.


I don't know about a 10-week plan, but I do have some ideas on improving your game, that you might be able to fit into a 10 week plan of some kind.
So, from a Has-Been to a Wanna-Be, this is what I say....


1. Keep a golf diary when you play. Nothing fancy, use a cheap notebook. One page per hole.Write down your lie, your club, your goal, your result. Do this a few times and it will give you an accurate picture of what you ARE doing.You'll identify your strengths and weaknesses in every aspect of your game. You can also use something like Gamegolf or Arccos to help track your performance.


2. Play a round where you play aggressively on everything, go for every shot if you've got a chance, no layups, all or nothing. Always hit driver, go for the pin,always try to sink every putt, etc. Then play a round where you play every shot safe and smart. Don't try to bomb it, club down on your drives if necessary, club up on your approaches, layup rather than hit the wood over the lake, go for the middle of the green instead of the pin, lag your chips and long putts, etc. Compare the results to figure out what best suits your game in what situation. Gotta figure out where you fit in with those mistresses Risk and Reward. On a slow day you might be able to do this all at once... play two balls, one aggressive and one safe.


3. Every once in a while,play your own personal 2 ball captain's choice round. Hit two balls for every shot, and take the best one. This will give you a reasonable picture of your then current max potential. Take special note of where you were able to improve on your second shot. This will build your confidence, and reveal the mental errors you commonly make when playing. Most mistakes are made BEFORE you swing the club.Figure out the mental mistakes you are prone to make, and then you can safeguard against them. (I did this last week, and shot a 67 at my local course, but knowing that I gained about 10 strokes from replays... 4 on putts, a few on pitches, and a few on the long game.Almost all mental... misjudging distance or break, being too aggressive, not accounting for wind or slope, etc.)


4. It sounds like you need a good golfer to work with you on your short game technique.
A. Post some videos hereof your short game.... front and side of pitches and putts. It might help. Most high handicappers scoop their chips and pitches, when they should be hitting down on the ball, and they put backspin on their putts when they should be hitting up on the ball to create topspin.If your technique is fine, then the problem is all mental... shot choice, green reading, feel&distance control, etc... which leads to....
B. This question: Where do you typically miss your short game shots? Left, right, long, or short... above the hole or below the hole? If you don't know already, then that golf diary will let you know. This will tell you what you need to work on in regards to the mental aspect of your short game.


5. Enjoy practice. Ben Hogan spoke of the pure physical pleasure of hitting a golf ball. I thoroughly enjoy practicing, whether its on the putting green or chipping or sandwork or full shots. It's just a pleasure to hit a golf ball.


6. I've gotta ask about your distance and swing speed. How far do you hit your driver? How far do you hit your 7 iron? You may need to work on strengthening your core, and do some overspeed training, that kind of thing. If you don't know your distance, on a 400 yard par 4, what would you typically hit on your second shot... how far out would you be?
Click to expand...
7 iron 150. SS 70

Driver 250 SS 105-107

hook main issue.

400 yard hole 6 or 7 iron second shots



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Okay, that's not bad. How tall are you, and what's your shirt sleeve length, weight and Age? There's not an exact correlation between these and speed but there is SOME correlation. I post the same numbers, at 5'4" 175lbs 39yo with a 32" sleeve. I tend to figure taller stronger guys should hit it longer because of extra centripetal force, older guys not so much, and weight sort of can have a positive impact up to a point then it starts to have a diminished return...


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BluesManDan said:
Okay, that's not bad. How tall are you, and what's your shirt sleeve length, weight and Age? There's not an exact correlation between these and speed but there is SOME correlation. I post the same numbers, at 5'4" 175lbs 39yo with a 32" sleeve. I tend to figure taller stronger guys should hit it longer because of extra centripetal force, older guys not so much, and weight sort of can have a positive impact up to a point then it starts to have a diminished return...


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Click to expand...
53 years old. 6'2" tall 34" sleeves. 195 lbs

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Johan185 said:
53 years old. 6'2" tall 34" sleeves. 195 lbs

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Click to expand...

Yeah, IMHO I think you ought to be able to get some better speed/distance numbers than that. Playing in the mud and cold Monday I was hitting it 250. NO roll that day. Longest drive was 280, must have gotten a little roll on that one. And you've got 2" of reach and 20 lbs on me, and 10" of height. You should be hitting it further than 250 total. When it's dry and warm I regularly get 260-280, and a few I'll pop out to 290 or more, and I'm a pretty small guy (well, not my waistline these days, ho-ho-ho). On a 400 yard par 4 I'd typically expect to hit an 8 or 9 iron into the green, unless I really pop it or miss it. I think if you get your swing fundamentally sound, with proper lag/delay and a good release, you should easily post some higher speed/distance numbers.
 
BluesManDan said:
In 2000-2001 I went from around a 10 to a 5 in a year... from consistently low 80's to consistent mid 70's. But I was working with a former tour pro, doing constant video swing analysis, did a complete overhaul of my swing in the winter (learned how to lag and properly release)... it was a lot of effort.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't mind hearing a few words about how you learned to lag, or increase your lag. I don't see many drills or tips on how to develop a better lag.
 
BluesManDan said:
Okay, that's not bad. How tall are you, and what's your shirt sleeve length, weight and Age? There's not an exact correlation between these and speed but there is SOME correlation. I post the same numbers, at 5'4" 175lbs 39yo with a 32" sleeve. I tend to figure taller stronger guys should hit it longer because of extra centripetal force, older guys not so much, and weight sort of can have a positive impact up to a point then it starts to have a diminished return...


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Click to expand...

Do you have any data showing any sort of correlation between swing speed and any of these measurements? Rory is only 5'9" and hits it father than most people.
 
leftshot said:
Wouldn't mind hearing a few words about how you learned to lag, or increase your lag. I don't see many drills or tips on how to develop a better lag.
Click to expand...

I like the pump drill. I came up with my own pump drill 15 years ago. But this guy in the video does a good job explaining it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAef1L7rh0s&feature=youtu.be

Basically you've got to get your hands in front of your right hip, with a 90* lag set up, give a little TORSO turn back, then turn through and hit the ball. Use a foam ball til you get it down, and then you can start hitting real balls.

Which: I recommend when making swing changes, DON"T HIT REAL GOLF BALLS AND WATCH THE BALL FLIGHT out on a range or (worse) on the course. When you make changes, it takes a while to get it down and strike the ball effectively. So people end up hitting a few balls, not doing well, saying, "Oh, I don't like how that feels or how the shot looks." And so they never actually change. You should swing at air first, then maybe a smash bag, then hit some foam balls or hit balls into a net, so you're not offput by the initial glitches of a swing change. Only after a LOT of non-real shots should you then hit a real golf ball and watch the flight. This is true especially if you are making several changes.
 
BluesManDan said:
Look at the general body build of these champs. Not too many under 6 foot here. (Except the ladies, but then, they're still tall for ladies).
http://www.longdrivers.com/past-championship-results/world-champions
Click to expand...

One of the fastest swingers on the planet and two time long drive champ is Jaime Sadlowski and he's 5'11". I just don't feel there is any correlation between the measurements you asked for and swing speed, or else there would be no way that the shorter Sadlowski could have a chance vs some of the guys who are 6'6" and 6'8". Also, you see it all the time on the PGA tour. Height isn't a huge factor. Take Rory and Brian Harman. two not so tall guys, but both kill it. Harman is 5'7" and has an average drive of nearly 300 yards.

Correlation is an if-then statement. If you're tall, then you swing faster. And that's just not the case.
 
BluesManDan said:
Yeah, IMHO I think you ought to be able to get some better speed/distance numbers than that. Playing in the mud and cold Monday I was hitting it 250. NO roll that day. Longest drive was 280, must have gotten a little roll on that one. And you've got 2" of reach and 20 lbs on me, and 10" of height. You should be hitting it further than 250 total. When it's dry and warm I regularly get 260-280, and a few I'll pop out to 290 or more, and I'm a pretty small guy (well, not my waistline these days, ho-ho-ho). On a 400 yard par 4 I'd typically expect to hit an 8 or 9 iron into the green, unless I really pop it or miss it. I think if you get your swing fundamentally sound, with proper lag/delay and a good release, you should easily post some higher speed/distance numbers.
Click to expand...
While I agree that someone with SS of 105-107 could be getting more distance than 250, I'm not sure this should even be on Johan's radar to even think about until he's taking substantially less than the @50 putts per round he's described.
 
tequila4kapp said:
While I agree that someone with SS of 105-107 could be getting more distance than 250, I'm not sure this should even be on Johan's radar to even think about until he's taking substantially less than the @50 putts per round he's described.
Click to expand...
And hitting more fairway and greens.

Oh and chipping.

I play 6000 yards white tee's. Being long is fun. But first I need accuracy. Unless I was going for long drive champ.

But I understand the post was only being helpful. So I really appreciate anyone give any advice. I think we can always filter out what we need.



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cbaker2882 said:
One of the fastest swingers on the planet and two time long drive champ is Jaime Sadlowski and he's 5'11". I just don't feel there is any correlation between the measurements you asked for and swing speed, or else there would be no way that the shorter Sadlowski could have a chance vs some of the guys who are 6'6" and 6'8". Also, you see it all the time on the PGA tour. Height isn't a huge factor. Take Rory and Brian Harman. two not so tall guys, but both kill it. Harman is 5'7" and has an average drive of nearly 300 yards.

Correlation is an if-then statement. If you're tall, then you swing faster. And that's just not the case.
Click to expand...

There is a correlation. but it hinges on "all things being equal" -which they aren't. The difference is a person's composition of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fibers, and the relative soundness of their swing. These two things can change. That's why there's not an exact correlation between height and swing speed. A tall man with slow-twitch muscle and a bad swing will not hit the ball farther than a short man with fast twitch muscles and a good swing. However, when all things ARE fairly equal, and you have a group of people with similar muscle makeup and similar swings, then height can and will be a factor. That is why all of the long drive champs are 6 foot plus except for a couple that are one inch off at 5 foot 11 or so. There are no 5 foot tall long drive champs, are there? It's silly to say that height is not a factor -- you would never expect a 4 foot tall 10 year old to hit it as far as a grown man. There is not an EXACT correlation because of swing differences and fast/slow twitch muscle makeup.

Jamie Sadlowski has developed a swing with EXTREME lag and coil, and has worked hard to build a lot of fast twitch muscle through overspeed training. He's fairly tall, though not as tall as most, but his swing form built around extreme lag and flexibility, powered with fast twitch muscle fiber, is able to beat out guys that are taller than him. All things are NOT equal.

My point for Johan185 was that he CAN build more fast twitch muscles through training, and CONTINUE to improve the soundness of his swing, and if he does so, he can EXPECT more distance. I think it's a no-brainer. A guy that's 10 inches taller than me ought to be able to hit farther than me - if he develops his swing and muscle makeup.
 
Johan185 said:
And hitting more fairway and greens.

Oh and chipping.

I play 6000 yards white tee's. Being long is fun. But first I need accuracy. Unless I was going for long drive champ.

But I understand the post was only being helpful. So I really appreciate anyone give any advice. I think we can always filter out what we need.

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Click to expand...
250 off the tees from 6K is more than long enough.
 
BluesManDan said:
There is a correlation. but it hinges on "all things being equal" -which they aren't. The difference is a person's composition of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fibers, and the relative soundness of their swing. These two things can change. That's why there's not an exact correlation between height and swing speed. A tall man with slow-twitch muscle and a bad swing will not hit the ball farther than a short man with fast twitch muscles and a good swing. However, when all things ARE fairly equal, and you have a group of people with similar muscle makeup and similar swings, then height can and will be a factor. That is why all of the long drive champs are 6 foot plus except for a couple that are one inch off at 5 foot 11 or so. There are no 5 foot tall long drive champs, are there? It's silly to say that height is not a factor -- you would never expect a 4 foot tall 10 year old to hit it as far as a grown man. There is not an EXACT correlation because of swing differences and fast/slow twitch muscle makeup.

Jamie Sadlowski has developed a swing with EXTREME lag and coil, and has worked hard to build a lot of fast twitch muscle through overspeed training. He's fairly tall, though not as tall as most, but his swing form built around extreme lag and flexibility, powered with fast twitch muscle fiber, is able to beat out guys that are taller than him. All things are NOT equal.

My point for Johan185 was that he CAN build more fast twitch muscles through training, and CONTINUE to improve the soundness of his swing, and if he does so, he can EXPECT more distance. I think it's a no-brainer. A guy that's 10 inches taller than me ought to be able to hit farther than me - if he develops his swing and muscle makeup.
Click to expand...

Although all of this might be true, given the stats that Johan has posted, increasing distance should be no where near the top of his list
 
arwin said:
Although all of this might be true, given the stats that Johan has posted, increasing distance should be no where near the top of his list
Click to expand...
Only on the putts I'm leaving short and to the right.

This is humor. Of course before we get a distance debate.

I dream of....

340 yard drives

200 yard 7 irons.

Lights out putting skills.

I will settle for par on half the whole I play tomorrow.

Then par on ever hole.

Then etc etc etc.

But better contact and swing mechanics will fix any distance issues i may have.

Major swing change only 59% downloaded. Matrix reference.

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Johan185 said:
Only on the putts I'm leaving short and to the right.

This is humor. Of course before we get a distance debate.

I dream of....

340 yard drives

200 yard 7 irons.

Lights out putting skills.

I will settle for par on half the whole I play tomorrow.

Then par on ever hole.

Then etc etc etc.

But better contact and swing mechanics will fix any distance issues i may have.

Major swing change only 59% downloaded. Matrix reference.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Honest question. Pick a number for a distance that you are really comfortable from with a scoring iron. If you put the ball in the middle of every fairway tomorrow at that number with a good even lie, what would the rest of your score be?
 
BluesManDan said:
There is a correlation. but it hinges on "all things being equal" -which they aren't. The difference is a person's composition of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fibers, and the relative soundness of their swing. These two things can change. That's why there's not an exact correlation between height and swing speed. A tall man with slow-twitch muscle and a bad swing will not hit the ball farther than a short man with fast twitch muscles and a good swing. However, when all things ARE fairly equal, and you have a group of people with similar muscle makeup and similar swings, then height can and will be a factor. That is why all of the long drive champs are 6 foot plus except for a couple that are one inch off at 5 foot 11 or so. There are no 5 foot tall long drive champs, are there? It's silly to say that height is not a factor -- you would never expect a 4 foot tall 10 year old to hit it as far as a grown man. There is not an EXACT correlation because of swing differences and fast/slow twitch muscle makeup.

Jamie Sadlowski has developed a swing with EXTREME lag and coil, and has worked hard to build a lot of fast twitch muscle through overspeed training. He's fairly tall, though not as tall as most, but his swing form built around extreme lag and flexibility, powered with fast twitch muscle fiber, is able to beat out guys that are taller than him. All things are NOT equal.

My point for Johan185 was that he CAN build more fast twitch muscles through training, and CONTINUE to improve the soundness of his swing, and if he does so, he can EXPECT more distance. I think it's a no-brainer. A guy that's 10 inches taller than me ought to be able to hit farther than me - if he develops his swing and muscle makeup.
Click to expand...

I hope you understand how you just showed there is 0 correlation between height and swing speed. Too many other factors in play means there is no correlation. Again, to have a correlation means it's correct in an if-then statement. If you are taller, then you swing faster. It's just not true. We're not robots.
 
You complicate the swing by thinking about crazy deep things at a 20 capper and you'll never get to scratch, think more about your grip, your alignment, your stance, your posture and tempo and less about everything else. Those 5 fundamentals with good instruction will get you low if you work hard and smart.

It's different for everyone but less is more for most of us, it just takes us years to realize it.
 
tequila4kapp said:
Honest question. Pick a number for a distance that you are really comfortable from with a scoring iron. If you put the ball in the middle of every fairway tomorrow at that number with a good even lie, what would the rest of your score be?
Click to expand...
I would be within 10 yards of the pin on most shots from 150 yards. But I have been walking away with a 6 80 % of the time.

Chip and putt. New years resolution. Been hitting the practice green daily.

But it's too early to see any clear cut results.

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