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What (if any) is the key to obtaining different angles of attack? Some talk in a different thread got me thinking about this so thought it a good swing topic to discuss.

Different scenarios sometimes warrant a different (from ones usual) angle of attack. I usually feel for most people that its hard enough as it is to repeat our "good" swings as they are. And changing some things like chokingup, or swinging easier, or shortening backswing, or changing swingpath, etc....can be done easier because its still basically the very same swing. But changing AOA seems to be much more difficult (at least for me) and often results in bad results. It sems like its a different arc which means it is varried from ones norm and is no longer ones basic swing. So with that logic is why I feel its harder to do vs some the other things that basically keep our swing the same. But maybe I don't really understand how to do it.

Someone mentioned spine tilt and I never thought or heard that and basically is what got me thinking about this topic on its own.

We often hear about changing AOA in things like tall grass where coming in steep is more a priority, perhaps fw bunkers?. and perhaps for a few other different reasons whatever they may be.

But how is this accomplished? are there different methods that work? Does it change our arc and also basic swing that we already find difficult enough to repeat? is it about ball position? Are we just using the same arc but striking the ball a different point within it? what about this spine tilt as mentioned?

One needs to come in steep so what does he/she do to get that done? And fwiw I am talking iron play here. Although it fine to add in what you wish about any clubs.
 
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Overall, I am trying to adjust my angle of attack for all clubs. I have always struggled with coming over the top, which has led to steep swings with negative angle of attack and tons of spin.

In flattening out my swing and coming from inside (with help/direction from an instructor) my results with all clubs have been better/more consistent.


As far as adjusting it depending on the shot, I am positive I am not that good to consciously think about it. If I am trying to alter ball flight I usually do it by changing ball position/club selection and swing length.
 
Overall, I am trying to adjust my angle of attack for all clubs. I have always struggled with coming over the top, which has led to steep swings with negative angle of attack and tons of spin.

In flattening out my swing and coming from inside (with help/direction from an instructor) my results with all clubs have been better/more consistent.


As far as adjusting it depending on the shot, I am positive I am not that good to consciously think about it. If I am trying to alter ball flight I usually do it by changing ball position/club selection and swing length.

falttening is something I find abit easier via a sweeping motion but I don't even know if that route is really correct. But regardless its the steepening of the attack that seems more difficult to do without screwing up the swing badly.
 
Moving the ball back will steepin the AoA moving the ball forward will lessen it.

There's ways to do it via mechanics but I'm not good enough to tell you how.


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I easiest way to slightly change it is to move the ball up an inch or backwards and inch. With the driver you have the spine tilted slightly away lets you get the hitting up on the ball with the right shoulder lower that the left. Drop the left shoulder a bit and you can get steeper to dig the ball out of the rough. The issues I have when trying to get steep is it is super easy to get a reverse pivot going. I haven't gotten on a launch monitor and purposely try to change it and get steep though so it might be a case of feel isn't real. It is pretty obvious when it comes to the driver as you can see plain as day what angle you launch the driver at.

There are ways you can also change where yo start to release the club but that usually ends in disaster for me and only do it if the rough is so deep I can't see the ball and am just trying to chop straight down on it.

Would be curious how the really good golfers do it
 
From what I understand is it's the mechanics of the swing. With driver ott golfers usually have a negative AoA and those with an inside out with have a positive. Changing some things in a swing and not coming as far from the inside will reduce the angle of attack. I have heard there are tour players who bomb the ball who have a negative AoA.

the right hand sits lower than the left on the club the spine angle at setup will be slightly leaning to the right. I don't know all the swing stuff associated with it but have had two instructors who teach the reverse k at setup especially with driver.

There are only two things I focus on in my swing, hit up on the ball with driver and make contact with ball then ground with irons
 
From what I understand is it's the mechanics of the swing. With driver ott golfers usually have a negative AoA and those with an inside out with have a positive. Changing some things in a swing and not coming as far from the inside will reduce the angle of attack. I have heard there are tour players who bomb the ball who have a negative AoA.

the right hand sits lower than the left on the club the spine angle at setup will be slightly leaning to the right. I don't know all the swing stuff associated with it but have had two instructors who teach the reverse k at setup especially with driver.

There are only two things I focus on in my swing, hit up on the ball with driver and make contact with ball then ground with irons
not true at all really. You can hit down from either inside out or outside in. Hitting down with the driver is lighting distance on fire and slowly pros going away from it. Non of the 105-110 mph guys hit down that I know of. The ones who do hit down hit it like 330 so giving up 20 yards isn't the end of the world.

Those are two good things to think of though, keep it simple, up with driver, down and ball first before ground will keep the awful shots fewer and farther between.
 
not true at all really. You can hit down from either inside out or outside in. Hitting down with the driver is lighting distance on fire and slowly pros going away from it. Non of the 105-110 mph guys hit down that I know of. The ones who do hit down hit it like 330 so giving up 20 yards isn't the end of the world.

Those are two good things to think of though, keep it simple, up with driver, down and ball first before ground will keep the awful shots fewer and farther between.

The tour pro AOA for driver is -1.3* according to Trackman.
 
The tour pro AOA for driver is -1.3* according to Trackman.
Indeed and they are giving up about 20 yards doing it. Pretty sure the chart you are talking about is from 2010 or so though it has been trending to a positive angle of attack for some time

Actually newer than I thought. Either way they are giving up yardage hitting down. LPGA is +3 which seems right since they can't afford to give up yardage. Looking for individual numbers now I am curious if the negative AOA correlates with high club head speed.


Super quick example would b 150 mph ball speed(100ish club) launching at 10 degrees with 3500 spin vs 13 and 3000 spin and 16 25000 spin which would basically be a little down, flat and up the carry yardage is 241, 248, 255.

Sort of off topic though, if you aren't swinging 120 mph you need to be hitting up with the driver but this was probably more of a thread on how you accomplish that.
 
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Indeed and they are giving up about 20 yards doing it. Pretty sure the chart you are talking about is from 2010 or so though it has been trending to a positive angle of attack for some time

Actually newer than I thought. Either way they are giving up yardage hitting down. LPGA is +3 which seems right since they can't afford to give up yardage. Looking for individual numbers now I am curious if the negative AOA correlates with high club head speed.

It does, and they are giving up some distance but in exchange for some spin/control.
 
It does, and they are giving up some distance but in exchange for some spin/control.

genuine question: how does spin = control? does that just mean control = ability to shape the ball? i would think minimizing spin gives the ability to hit the ball straighter, or at least on its initial line.
 
genuine question: how does spin = control? does that just mean control = ability to shape the ball? i would think minimizing spin gives the ability to hit the ball straighter, or at least on its initial line.
Think of how much more control a football has compared to a pitcher throwing a knuckle ball that just wobbles
 
Think of how much more control a football has compared to a pitcher throwing a knuckle ball that just wobbles

those are different kinds of spin, though. is there an example specific to control in which a spinning object is more controllable in flight than an object with no (or significantly less) spin?


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those are different kinds of spin, though. is there an example specific to control in which a spinning object is more controllable in flight than an object with no (or significantly less) spin?


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A golf ball if made with no dimples will go about 170 yards every which way while dimples make the same ball go 250 with some control. That might be more of a drag issue and such but these things are done on super computers first and proven out. Will see if I can find a good article by someone way smarter than me
 
Angle of attack

A golf ball if made with no dimples will go about 170 yards every which way while dimples make the same ball go 250 with some control.

last question then I'll stop because the thread is about aoa, not spin. my fault for the detail!

we aren't talking about distance. in fact, we've all conceded that pros are giving up distance because they're hitting down on the ball (based on my understanding that means adding spin). that's counterintuitive to your dimple example.

I don't think spin = control. I agree there is an optimum amount of spin, and that spin is generated and necessary to move the ball off its starting line. but I ask again: how is spin better for control?

and just to be fair, I've heard the same thing I think you've heard, that the pros hit down on the ball for control. I am just trying to understand why that translates to control.


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those are different kinds of spin, though. is there an example specific to control in which a spinning object is more controllable in flight than an object with no (or significantly less) spin?


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I'll have to do some digging, but in general spin equals control and less spin equals distance. That's part of why you see a less spinning ball like the B330 advertised as providing "tour" distance while the version designed to increase spin like the B330-S is adverstised as providing "tour" control.

https://www.bridgestonegolf.com/product/balls/tour-b330
https://www.bridgestonegolf.com/product/balls/tour-b330-s

But there is a point where you lose the control benefits. Spin too much and you'll see your ball flight balloon.

And I don't think it's something most amateurs should put much thought in.
 
last question then I'll stop because the thread is about aoa, not spin. my fault for the detail!

we aren't talking about distance. in fact, we've all conceded that pros are giving up distance because they're hitting down on the ball (based on my understanding that means adding spin). that's counterintuitive to your dimple example.

I don't think spin = control. I agree there is an optimum amount of spin, and that spin is generated and necessary to move the ball off its starting line. but I ask again: how is spin better for control?

and just to be fair, I've heard the same thing I think you've heard, that the pros hit down on the ball for control. I am just trying to understand why that translates to control.


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It is a reasonable question. Will try to find something that explains it well if I can. Other wise it is one of those things that just is, lol.
 
It is a reasonable question. Will try to find something that explains it well if I can. Other wise it is one of those things that just is, lol.

haha! or it's one of those things I just ain't smart enough to grasp :)


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Also keep in mind when they say spin is more controllable they are talking about pure back spin not huge slicing side spin.
 
To my teacher,AOA has to do with "true loft" and utilizing it.For me I get true loft by never letting the face close/pivot/and standing as close as I can.That gets my AOA on a pretty consistent path and number according to him.You will always be guessing until you can understand how to get "true loft"
 
haha! or it's one of those things I just ain't smart enough to grasp :)


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I can't find anything other than anecdotal comments (including from tour pros) that it has anything to do with the spin. I did find a few articles that just focused on the point that it keeps the ball down out of the wind and some that mentioned less total spin imparted on the ball from the bottom of the club face. But we know from Trackman data that the more you hit up on a ball the less spin you impart on it, so maybe the combination of hitting down but lower on the face sort of cancel each other out to give you similar spin but at a lower launch angle, producing a ball flight that is potentially low enough to be effected less by wind.

Or maybe it has to do with physics like the magnus effect forcing wind around/behind the ball, but so long as you don't overly tilt the ball's spin axis?

Here's one of the (seemingly) anecdotal quotes:


The lower tee height encourages me to hit down on the ball more, which automatically creates extra backspin, even with a low-lofted club like the driver. When it comes to accuracy, backspin is your friend, because more backspin means less sidespin. This is why it's easier to hit your 3-wood straight than it is your driver. It's an easy trick that really works. - Graeme McDowell


http://www.golf.com/instruction/graeme-mcdowell-take-control-tee-box
 
To my teacher,AOA has to do with "true loft" and utilizing it.For me I get true loft by never letting the face close/pivot/and standing as close as I can.That gets my AOA on a pretty consistent path and number according to him.You will always be guessing until you can understand how to get "true loft"
This confuses me honestly. How do you take in to consideration things like tip flex and and how much the shaft is whipping back through adding launch angle compared to the amount you are hitting up adding to the loft
 
AoA is directly related to the path of the swing not ball position. It has everything to do with how one gets the club to the top. A steep angle of attack is correlated with an upright move and a shallow angle with a flatter move.

And Eric you correct in your thoughts.
 
This confuses me honestly. How do you take in to consideration things like tip flex and and how much the shaft is whipping back through adding launch angle compared to the amount you are hitting up adding to the loft
I'm going to apologize here.Im just learning how to swing properly from a great teaching professional in my area.Im having him worry about the nuts and bolts.But one thing he said is AOA is also created versus hand lag - created fake lag.The guys who fake lag and hold angles will have a very steep AOA and hit down to much.Where he taught me hand lag.Which is where you create impact right before you get to the top of the back swing.Than all I do is push drive it thru with a pivot.Never flipping but just trusting the impact I made right before I reached the top of the back swing.I guess this creates a stable face / true loft.My issue according to him is hitting a little to early.But if i have hand lag/stable push drive my club face will be more square at impact than people who force club head lag.Still confusing to me,but it is working well so far.Just have to keep on practicing
 
Let me just add his way of teaching is a shallow approach AOA.Where people who fake or hit early have a steep AOA.All of his top students (college and above)have a low AOA with a dead solid square club face that never closes.Having just watched a few they can flat out hit that ball.Impressive is only a word I can use in here until you see them in person.All using true loft of the club
 
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