Learning together about Launch Monitors

[obedt]

Something I pay very little importance to, but some see it as an important part of the sim experience- putting. Camera is better in putting and short chips, even with Trackman and Flightscope improving on this area.

Radar will need a flat, smooth area to read the putt, and short putts (<5 ft) may not be detected reliably.

gcquad has some cool putting functionality, that can even be used for fitting purposes. Uneekor has a really cool feature built in with an overhead camera replaying the strike. On putts it draws a straight line down the line and you can actually see if your putt strays to either direction. I could see that being something worthwhile to practice with and actually improve.

 

[The Dave]

Good stuff @obedt

I was pondering a Mevo+, but I was too limited in space to where I would feel comfortable with radar.

I might end up going down the rabbit hole with a better setup than a net and mat, if I use it enough, and pickup a "lower end" launch monitor.

For reference ES Tour is $2,700 and the ES 20/20 is around $10k

 

[Daddio]

Great thread idea obedt and a HUGE THANK YOU for all the work you and the contributing THPers are putting into it already. Will follow this thread for sure.

I also began looking into this a couple months ago when I was unsure, like most of us, if our courses and ranges might be off limits. My setup had to be outdoors too so MEVO+looked to be the best overall option considering what I've seen it do on video reviews for the price. I got my mat and had a custom sized net built right away, and via trial and error, have a nice system designed to set it up easily whenever I need it.

Turns out our courses never closed and even my favored stand alone range (no course, just indoor sims and some heated covered outdoor bays) stayed open throughout so I haven't rushed to order the MEVO+ yet. I mean I couldn't get one soon if I wanted and they seem to be making improvements and working out bugs at a great pace right now. I'll get that once the rush is over and my SC200 does for now whenever I use my net. (not often with range and courses open).

 

[obedt]

Great thread idea obedt and a HUGE THANK YOU for all the work you and the contributing THPers are putting into it already. Will follow this thread for sure.

I also began looking into this a couple months ago when I was unsure, like most of us, if our courses and ranges might be off limits. My setup had to be outdoors too so MEVO+looked to be the best overall option considering what I've seen it do on video reviews for the price. I got my mat and had a custom sized net built right away, and via trial and error, have a nice system designed to set it up easily whenever I need it.

Turns out our courses never closed and even my favored stand alone range (no course, just indoor sims and some heated covered outdoor bays) stayed open throughout so I haven't rushed to order the MEVO+ yet. I mean I couldn't get one soon if I wanted and they seem to be making improvements and working out bugs at a great pace right now. I'll get that once the rush is over and my SC200 does for now whenever I use my net. (not often with range and courses open).

Thanks Daddio.

I'm not going to lie, I wonder if long term I'm going to use the device much after the newness of it dies down. I am a #s geek, so I may. Also, I don't particularly love the course that is a short drive away, and with work getting tougher playing sim golf may keep me entertained.

Not sure it makes sense for everyone (although if I lived in an area where weather shut me down 3 or 4 months I'd try and figure out a way to build something permanent).

 

[obedt]

A little bit on impact location and other club-head measurements-

This is something that's going to be found on higher-end systems regardless of the tech. Foresight revolutionized the landscape with their HMT a few years back. Measurements of Clubhead speed (which then allows a reliable calculation of smash factor), angle of attack, club path, aoa, club head droop, and impact location opened up which was a huge leap in the industry. Uneekor's upcoming Eye XO will also have club markings to help it measure some (all??) of these metrics.

Trackman has figured out a way to measure (and model) the clubhead in space. It will estimate impact location with a few measurements (ball position prior to impact, time of impact, club head position, and estimations of the center position of the club face based on distance to the hosel). Now, Trackman has been tracking all or most of the flight of balls for years. Similar to Bridgestone's ball fitting matrix, they have all this data. This has allowed them to tweak their algorithms. A recent tweak allowed for them to input gear effect for indoor into their ball model based off the impact location. I believe TM4 is the only radar-based LM capable of this.

 

[obedt]

As a career "RADAR" guy, I am curious what the update rate is on these systems...it would have to be pretty fast to provide tracking... That would explain part of the expense...

Honestly not sure what update rate is. TM4 touts 40,000 samples per second, with its dual radars.

 

[Scorp]

Great information. I'd love to have something like this but can't justify the cost and I know I wouldn't use it.

 

[chile]

Great information. I'd love to have something like this but can't justify the cost and I know I wouldn't use it.

If it was something that is always set up (i.e. in the garage), I would use it frequently but something I have to tote along, yeah...probably not very often. I've taken the sc300 out far less than I thought I would...and it's very compact.

 

[chile]

another thing I am curious about is how the RADAR based systems track spin rate...I don't know how the data that the processor receives from the return info translates that part.

 

[obedt]

another thing I am curious about is how the RADAR based systems track spin rate...I don't know how the data that the processor receives from the return info translates that part.

From Trackman -

The spin rate of a golf ball has a massive impact on the ball flight as well as how the ball behaves once it impacts the ground. For high speed drives the difference of just a couple of 100 rpm’s have a noticeable influence on the ball flight and carry/total distance. TrackMan’s patented method of measuring the spin rate by using the Doppler radar signature of a spinning ball has been confirmed by various research projects/institutes to be state-of-the-art. The accuracy is within 20 rpm.

Consider a golf ball launched with backspin and illuminated by a Doppler radar positioned behind the golfer; the top of the golf ball will move towards the radar compared to the center of the ball, and the bottom of the golf ball will move away from the radar compared to the center of the ball. This means that the Doppler radar does not only see one velocity of a flying spinning golf ball, but a range of velocities. It turns out that the range of velocities is not continuous but has discrete components being harmonics of the spin frequency and symmetrically arranged around the ball velocity in the Doppler spectrum.

The spin rate measuring principle does not rely on any markers on the ball or knowledge of ball diameter etc. Because of the accuracy and robustness of the spin rate measurement principle, TrackMan uses this method to determine spin rate of all kinds of sports balls, including baseball, tennis ball, cricket ball, football/soccer ball, and, of course, the golf ball. All sports where spin rate is one of the key metrics for controlling ball flight and ground impact behavior.

Goes to show how freakishly smart these people designing these logarithms are

 

[chile]

From Trackman -



Goes to show how freakishly smart these people designing these logarithms are

thanks for that info...a lot of this same stuff applies to TBM tracking/interception...i could never digest it all so i had my smart RADAR guys absorb all the nitnoid, tech details to fill in the gaps for those "snipers" in the audience when we'd brief visitors to our sites.

 

[obedt]

Per my understanding, the dot that radar based units often require when hitting to a net is mostly for spin measurement

 

[Scorp]

If it was something that is always set up (i.e. in the garage), I would use it frequently but something I have to tote along, yeah...probably not very often. I've taken the sc300 out far less than I thought I would...and it's very compact.

If you want to sell it, I'll give you $1 for it.

 

[Luchnia]

I use my SC300 almost daily when I am able to practice in my net. I rarely take it out as I don't do that much range practice. It serves me well and hard to beat the price for what you get. The challenge I have is when devices get too expensive, then I would simply join a local course and play as much as I can.

I might go the dollars for a Skytrak, but no way would I fork out the cha-ching for those expensive machines. The only way I would consider that type of investment is if our winters were extremely long and in that case I would move!

 

[The Dave]

another thing I am curious about is how the RADAR based systems track spin rate...I don't know how the data that the processor receives from the return info translates that part.

I think spin axis is calculated on radar units indoors based on swing path. Might show less push draws and pull fades because of it

 

[Joshnoble01]

Really interesting. I would love to have the space.

 

[-CRW-]

Did you happen to get pricing on software/licensing for the big name models?

It was my understanding that the software for GCQuad brought it up several thousand more.

 

[obedt]

I use my SC300 almost daily when I am able to practice in my net. I rarely take it out as I don't do that much range practice. It serves me well and hard to beat the price for what you get. The challenge I have is when devices get too expensive, then I would simply join a local course and play as much as I can.

I might go the dollars for a Skytrak, but no way would I fork out the cha-ching for those expensive machines. The only way I would consider that type of investment is if our winters were extremely long and in that case I would move!

How accurate do you think it's been for you? From what I hear, spin is usually hit or miss but carry yardages and ball speeds are good. Does that hold true?

I think spin axis is calculated on radar units indoors based on swing path. Might show less push draws and pull fades because of it

This is my understanding too, but I'm not 100% sure to be honest. If you all don't mind, I could inquire to Flightscope to see if they can provide a detailed answer. The Mevo+ isn't tracking a lot of the club movements, or at least doesn't provide path information which should be critical to estimating spin axis. Not sure how they do on this, or their higher end models either. I think I read that TM needed 2 ball revolutions to measure spin axis. Don't quote me on that though.

Really interesting. I would love to have the space.

Thanks man. There are units that are perfect for the range, but there you're already seeing your ball flight so

Did you happen to get pricing on software/licensing for the big name models?

It was my understanding that the software for GCQuad brought it up several thousand more.

Sorry about this. I plan to get to it, but probably won't for a couple days. I honestly don't have the info fully compiled. SkyTrak has some discounted pricing for 3rd part simulation software, with the $100/yr Game Improvement package requisite. I'll try and get a post up this week for sure

 

[Luchnia]

How accurate do you think it's been for you? From what I hear, spin is usually hit or miss but carry yardages and ball speeds are good. Does that hold true?

I have heard some really bad stories about the SC300, but in my case I am happy with it. I have taken it to the range several times and used my range finder to verify the distances and they are close enough for me. I think swing speed, ball speed, launch angle, and smash factor are pretty close most of the time. I don't really look at the other things on it.

It has helped me tons with my driver and various shaft combos. Just recently I have been working on my launch angle and trying to dial it in closer. I found that the lighter more flexible shaft I tend to have a higher launch angle, but not as controlled as I get with a lighter less flexible shaft. That shows I am flexing the shaft more and hitting up more. I have dropped launch angle about 4 degrees during my last practice session.

I had a fitting at club champion for irons back in February this year and I took the stats from CC and measure them with what my SC300 was showing for the same club and I was happy with the comparison. Distances and swing speed matched within a small amount. Club and ball speed was within 1 to 2 mph and distance within a few yards tops and CC has high-end equipment.

You do get the occasional shot that is so far off you know better. You learn not to pay any attention to those. Most of the time distance is within 1-3 yards, but it can vary some on what club you are hitting. For instance I hit my 6 iron about 173-174 average with an average SS of 79-80 and the slight variance with the SC300 is not enough for me to worry about.

One thing I do not like about the SC300 that really bugs me to, is that sometimes it just takes a notion and doesn't register some strikes and for no apparent reason. Another thing is you really have to learn how to place it properly, especially inside. When I took it outside to the range it seemed to work much better and was not as particular.

 

[obedt]

I have heard some really bad stories about the SC300, but in my case I am happy with it. I have taken it to the range several times and used my range finder to verify the distances and they are close enough for me. I think swing speed, ball speed, launch angle, and smash factor are pretty close most of the time. I don't really look at the other things on it.

It has helped me tons with my driver and various shaft combos. Just recently I have been working on my launch angle and trying to dial it in closer. I found that the lighter more flexible shaft I tend to have a higher launch angle, but not as controlled as I get with a lighter less flexible shaft. That shows I am flexing the shaft more and hitting up more. I have dropped launch angle about 4 degrees during my last practice session.

I had a fitting at club champion for irons back in February this year and I took the stats from CC and measure them with what my SC300 was showing for the same club and I was happy with the comparison. Distances and swing speed matched within a small amount. Club and ball speed was within 1 to 2 mph and distance within a few yards tops and CC has high-end equipment.

You do get the occasional shot that is so far off you know better. You learn not to pay any attention to those. Most of the time distance is within 1-3 yards, but it can vary some on what club you are hitting. For instance I hit my 6 iron about 173-174 average with an average SS of 79-80 and the slight variance with the SC300 is not enough for me to worry about.

One thing I do not like about the SC300 that really bugs me to, is that sometimes it just takes a notion and doesn't register some strikes and for no apparent reason. Another thing is you really have to learn how to place it properly, especially inside. When I took it outside to the range it seemed to work much better and was not as particular.

This is awesome feedback! Glad it's worked out for you the way it has. Honestly, at that price point I would guess most every unit will falter with a few no-reads. I take it you've also hit it into a net too and are happy with the #s?

The thing I'd look at these $500 and below LMs is are they at least giving you consistent data. If you're getting launch angles consistently, then you can baseline and work on your game accordingly, like you are doing.

 

[obedt]

Bit of a sidetrack into what I believe are the top 2 consumer launch monitor options in that $2,000 range. Credit to Ron from www.gunghogolf.com for putting this together. The article has too many characters for me to copy, but here's the link:

SkyTrak vs. Mevo+ Buyer‘s Guide

At around $2,000 each, the SkyTrak and the FlightScope Mevo+ represent the most affordable options in accurate, reliable launch monitors for practice and simulated golf play. Both units measure all the critical ball launch data necessary to model real ball flight. Golf enthusiasts are lucky to...

gunghogolf.com

 

[vdubtx]

Lots of great information in here. Thanks @obedt for compiling into one thread for the rest of us to benefit from your research.

 

[obedt]

Bump on the Skytrak/Mevo+ Comparison. A couple of things I don't think were touched on, the SkyTrak starts to struggle at ball speeds past 150 mph. A firmware update has helped in that regard, but not sure I would fully trust the data past say 155. It still has proven to be accurate in its measurements to that point, although not all of the modeling around spin axis has been on point as Ron discussed. An issue I'm reading more and more about with Mevo+, and has me worried tbh, is interference from metal, LED lights, fans, TVs etc. Where I'm going to set up my unit is a few feet from a fence. Seems to be a little bit finicky.

Bit of a sidetrack into what I believe are the top 2 consumer launch monitor options in that $2,000 range. Credit to Ron from www.gunghogolf.com for putting this together. The article has too many characters for me to copy, but here's the link:

SkyTrak vs. Mevo+ Buyer‘s Guide

At around $2,000 each, the SkyTrak and the FlightScope Mevo+ represent the most affordable options in accurate, reliable launch monitors for practice and simulated golf play. Both units measure all the critical ball launch data necessary to model real ball flight. Golf enthusiasts are lucky to...

gunghogolf.com

Lots of great information in here. Thanks @obedt for compiling into one thread for the rest of us to benefit from your research.

No problem man. I'm a geek, so this stuff is fun for me.

 

[chile]

nice work, @obedt … i'd say a sticky is in order.

 

[obedt]

So, there's a big jump in price from the $200-$500 range to those $2k units. Very substantial.

The $200-500 units should be able to provide decent ball speed and carry numbers. I'd be skeptical on spin, although I think outdoors the Mevo should do an ok job there to where at least you're getting consistent #s and has proven to be ok indoors on irons with dotted balls. So I think you can get some gapping information from them and practice yardages somewhat reliably.

The step up from those units to 2K, you start seeing things like left and right ball flight (whether it's a push, pull, ball curvature, etc). You start to get idea of side to side dispersion. This opens up the simulation aspect. Also, the quality of the radars/cameras improve. The Mevo+ will measure more ball flight than the Mevo. It will provide more data points. I believe at this point, the consumer can start to baseline equipment. The equipment is consistent enough in its readings to where you can see differences between balls. Tweaking driver settings, etc, can start to be measured and you can begin to form an educated opinion. Whether that is enough of a cost benefit for you to jump is certainly up to the user, but that's what this jump in price implies.