All Rounds Should Be Four Hours or Less

[Phil75070]

10 minutes between tee times helps, but how many starters hold groups to their booked tee time, instead sending groups off as soon as the group ahead is out of range?

Marshals are afraid to push groups that are slow because management is afraid those people won't come back, when it is really the golfers they want to come back that are behind the slow players, that get fed up with the slow play, and never step foot on the course again. Management is encouraging the slow players with this policy, just the opposite of what they should be doing.

Also, it all starts with your earliest groups out. We are able to book the first tee time every weekday. The longest it has taken our foursome to complete the round is 2:45 (faster when there are just two or three of us). We don't rush, we just play ready golf and don't do the things that add unnecessary time to the round. We will often be teeing off on 7 to see a twosome behind us just reaching the 5th tee! You get three minutes to look for a lost ball, and I see groups spending much longer than that. One lost ball per foursome over 18 holes and delays begin to add up as the day goes on, and if those first groups are playing at a four-hour pace, the rounds become much longer.

 

[bkuehn1952]

It is too bad there is no way to limit early tee times to foursomes of “rabbits.” We played recently with an early tee time but not the earliest. We watched a group go off first who had no business being the day’s pace setters. After they finished the first hole, they faced a constant stream of groups playing through. My guess is we finished 18 before they did 9. I am sure their presence screwed up the pace for much of the day. They got online before everyone else so they went first. Too bad for the rest of us.

 

[darthweasel]

Played in a tournament Saturday. Full tournament, several holes had 2 groups...we started as only group on a par 5 as the only group, which felt weird.

Caveat: this was considered a "major" for the group putting on the tournament and as a result they did a couple things to make it feel important: 1, they had the course grow out the rough to much longer than normal, and 2, they backed all the tee boxes up...playing the "5" tees that are normally 6052 yards, they had them placed closer to the combo 6 tees at 6234 yards...maybe a tad deeper and same for the flight playing off the 7 tees.

So the longer course and longer rough were going to cause some issues. (and did...as you will see in the scores. We played like a group of absolute hackers. )

We had one...uh...lets be polite and say deliberate golfer, one of the two "7" caps in our group, one guy coming off an Achilles blowout so riding a cart. Due to our respective handicaps (2 guys had 7ish, 2 of us sitting at 11) we were playing split tees. 3 of us walking.

By our third hole (a par 3) we had a couple minute wait for them to finish and this was pretty standard the rest of the round, nothing brutal, nothing where you are staring at your watch, the scenery, maybe the sun hoping to go blind from boredom...just bog standard "we are on their heels, sometimes we will have a better hole than the group ahead and have a brief lull in the action as we finished too quick".

To me the round felt a bit draggish but mentally I had prepped for a 5 to 5-1/2 hour round so it was not nearly as bad as it could have been.

As a group we all played...well, poorly. I took low honors for our group with an 89 if that tells you anything. Worst in the group was a 96.

It took 4:51 and they all felt it felt fast "for a tournament".

Okay, fair point. I have played in a decent number of this groups' tournaments and for one of their tournaments it did feel fast so I was going over the round analyzing my performance and started thinking about why 4:51 would feel "fast for a tournament" when normally I am thinking of walking off the course if a round is taking that long.

And I think a huge part of it came down to the greens. That 2' straight putt nobody missed all day now was a mark, maybe a move the mark, someone else putt, rinse, repeat.

I wonder if this is a factor...obviously A factor, not THE factor...in many rounds. When someone knocks a 20' to 2' and instead of just finishing it (or, in many rounds I have seen, scooping it), now there is the mark it, re-set it (and heaven forfend it be one of those "line the lines, realign them, step back, check it, realign them, one final look and adjust it again" heathens) to putt what was something none of us came close to missing all day...that added a significant amount of time.

Rarely were we waiting for the tee shot...or approach shot on fives...it was always the green we were waiting for.

Necessary part of the game...I get that...just thought I would throw one anecdotal experience that happens to match something I see a lot in casual rounds as well...the more marking of putts going on seems to match pretty well with how long the round may take relationally speaking. Not a hard and fast rule but certainly one that in my personal experience has some relevance.

 

[DataDude]

Played yesterday in a 3some with a really bad golfer and we waited almost every tee box for the group in front and finished in 4:20. Not bad timing and IMO the best that public courses can hope for.

 

[Bus]

Played yesterday in a 3some with a really bad golfer and we waited almost every tee box for the group in front and finished in 4:20. Not bad timing and IMO the best that public courses can hope for.

We got lucky yesterday and were the first ones off after a tournament finished so had free sailing and finished in 2 something on a public course here. It's an outlier obviously, and any other weekend that isn't happening. It's not too bad usually during the week though.

 

[BigMac]

Played in a 3some this morning. There was a league (three 4somes) teeing off when I got there, and we teed off about 20 minutes later (nobody else in between us). It was wide open until we caught up to them on the 5th tee, and then it was a waiting game for most of the rest of the round. We still finished in 3:17 so it wasn't nightmare slow, but without them in front of us it would have easily been a sub 3:00 round.

Our course is starting to clear out as the snowbirds are heading back home, so within the next 2-3 weeks it should be pretty wide open for the most part.

 

[uitar99]

I appreciate the effort to speed up the pace, but you need to figure out where the problem is and address it, not randomly harass groups that are in their proper place on the course (directly behind the group ahead of them) just to feel like you're doing something.

My wife and I play a lot of munis. In our city and when travelling.

The number of times our foursome has been whined at by course Marshalls for being behind pace of play is surprisingly high.

I try to always get involved. The first question is always "do you want us to hit into that group ahead of us, that we wait on every shot, and we are not big hitters."

There is never a reply.

But then again: 4 hours is too long? Is 3:58 just about right?

is a 3.5 hour round followed by 3 hours in the 19th hole sound about right.

If we keep the group ahead of us within hitting distance, we have done our job.

Regardless of pace of play, it takes 6 hours out of our day, to and from home.

 

[tahoebum]

18 holes ? Walking ?
( l basing it on with multiple partners )

I don’t think 4 hours is rushing , meant less than that … not sure what hcp your off , but for those who are higher yes certainly , lve seen groups where 2 carts go out , and the two players are on opposite sides of fairways lol all day …. They should be amply quicker ….

If you play ready golf, don't take a bunch of practice swings, or have a 30+ second pre-shot routine, 3:30 walking as a foursome should be simple for most golfers. I play Wednesday men's league mostly with guys over 70 in my foursome, and we walk at a 3:20-3:40 pace regularly on a full golf course. The biggest slowdown I see is not playing ready golf and spending way too much time on the putting greens. Reading a putt from 360° or standing over your putt longer doesn't increase your make percentage. Nor does marking a 2-footer. Most great putters I know don't take long to read a putt or take more than 10 seconds to hit a putt once they have addressed the ball. Too many are emulating what they see on the PGA Tour greens, which certainly contributes to slow play. The slow players I see at my club are often just really slow putters because of things like a very long pre-putt routine or aligning the line on their ball two or three times before they can settle in over the putt.

 

[BigMac]

18 holes ? Walking ?
( l basing it on with multiple partners )

I don’t think 4 hours is rushing , meant less than that … not sure what hcp your off , but for those who are higher yes certainly , lve seen groups where 2 carts go out , and the two players are on opposite sides of fairways lol all day …. They should be amply quicker ….

If two golfers in a cart are on opposite sides of the fairway, one needs to un-ass himself from that seat, grab a club and walk over to his ball so he's ready to hit after his partner hits. Not sit there in the cart and wait for his partner to drive him 40 yards across the fairway to his ball.

I golf with a buddy who's in his 70s and banged up pretty good, to the point that he can't do a lot of walking. If we're riding in a cart together, he either drops me off at my ball, or I let him drive to his ball and I walk over to mine. Unless both people in the cart are walking wounded, there's no excuse for sitting in the cart like a crash test dummy and waiting to be chauffeured to your ball.

Another time saver with carts - after you hit, don't waste time at the back of the cart putting your headcover back on, putting the club back in the bag, checking your bag zippers or whatever else. Jump back in the cart with the club in your hand, you can replace the headcover and put it back in the bag when you get to your partner's ball and they're shooting distance and getting ready to hit. It doesn't seem like much, but by the end of a round all those little things add up to 20-30 wasted minutes.

 

[BigMac]

is a 3.5 hour round followed by 3 hours in the 19th hole sound about right.

I don't care how long somebody wants to spend at the 19th hole. I don't have to stand around behind them waiting once they're in there swilling drinks. They can take as much time as they want at #19, that's not bringing the entire course behind them to a crawl.

If we keep the group ahead of us within hitting distance, we have done our job.

Agreed. If you're directly behind the group in front of you, you're doing everything you can do.

Regardless of pace of play, it takes 6 hours out of our day, to and from home.

I'm retired and usually have all the time in the world for golf, I'm not in a hurry to rush back home and my rounds don't have to be races to the fastest finish. But I'd prefer not to spend all that time standing/sitting around behind a group of slugs who think the golf course is their personal private picnic grounds.

 

[Hitsnmisses]

What hasn’t , been factored in also is

That this demographic is skilled and enthusiastic to play

Not everyone who takes a club out there will have the same level of enthusiasm

If you play ready golf, don't take a bunch of practice swings, or have a 30+ second pre-shot routine, 3:30 walking as a foursome should be simple for most golfers. I play Wednesday men's league mostly with guys over 70 in my foursome, and we walk at a 3:20-3:40 pace regularly on a full golf course. The biggest slowdown I see is not playing ready golf and spending way too much time on the putting greens. Reading a putt from 360° or standing over your putt longer doesn't increase your make percentage. Nor does marking a 2-footer. Most great putters I know don't take long to read a putt or take more than 10 seconds to hit a putt once they have addressed the ball. Too many are emulating what they see on the PGA Tour greens, which certainly contributes to slow play. The slow players I see at my club are often just really slow putters because of things like a very long pre-putt routine or aligning the line on their ball two or three times before they can settle in over the putt.

Iam not talking about , say for this demographic which by its nature is a enthusiastic and skilled afficianados

More so the general population , who wouldn’t have skill set or energy to complete ..in sub 4. Also if everyone pulls a bag around is higher handicapper ( which is more representative of a golf player , add to that , not fully understanding rules / etiquette . With the more than regular “ did you see where my ball went “ lol it quite easily blows out .

I do walk also and my answers previously above have been from observational and personal experience.

I don’t want the game hurried nor do I want it endurance event lol

 

[Hitsnmisses]

If two golfers in a cart are on opposite sides of the fairway, one needs to un-ass himself from that seat, grab a club and walk over to his ball so he's ready to hit after his partner hits. Not sit there in the cart and wait for his partner to drive him 40 yards across the fairway to his ball.

I golf with a buddy who's in his 70s and banged up pretty good, to the point that he can't do a lot of walking. If we're riding in a cart together, he either drops me off at my ball, or I let him drive to his ball and I walk over to mine. Unless both people in the cart are walking wounded, there's no excuse for sitting in the cart like a crash test dummy and waiting to be chauffeured to your ball.

Another time saver with carts - after you hit, don't waste time at the back of the cart putting your headcover back on, putting the club back in the bag, checking your bag zippers or whatever else. Jump back in the cart with the club in your hand, you can replace the headcover and put it back in the bag when you get to your partner's ball and they're shooting distance and getting ready to hit. It doesn't seem like much, but by the end of a round all those little things add up to 20-30 wasted minutes.

What you suggesting is logic and commonsense… hahaha not sure that’s in abundance these days .. you can multitask very easy in golf course ..

Though some do need to be told what to do

 

[MacTourney]

Another time saver with carts - after you hit, don't waste time at the back of the cart putting your headcover back on, putting the club back in the bag, checking your bag zippers or whatever else. Jump back in the cart with the club in your hand, you can replace the headcover and put it back in the bag when you get to your partner's ball and they're shooting distance and getting ready to hit. It doesn't seem like much, but by the end of a round all those little things add up to 20-30 wasted minutes.

This one drives me nuts.

 

[Typhoon]

THIS is amazing….

I go out at my place for 9. I see a husband, wife that are older and a son probably 25-30 tumble out of their car in the parking lot, arguing, the kid yelling that he scratches his arm. I’m like… I’m NOT getting behind these people.
I tell the other pros, they’re gonna be an issue. They couldn’t even get the cart rental right for the 3 of them. Anyway I go out and they are the group behind me. I went out at 11:40. I was on the first green and they were on the tee behind me.

So I catch up to people on 4. And it’s slow the rest of the way …I lag behind chipping and putting for 30 minutes on the 3rd green. The group behind me is nowhere in sight. I’m coming down the 6 th hole, and I see them on the 4th tee. I get to the 7th tee and I see them 100 yards up and there are 4 groups on the 4th tee stacked up waiting. Also a group putting out on 3 and a group in the fairway.

I get through with 9…. I live a mile away. I went home, played with the dogs in the yard, drove my wife to the post office to mail some stuff inside, went to Dunkin a donuts for coffee, came home and ate lunch. I went back down the course to work for 3 pm and that group that was behind me was coming down 9…. Still not done. The good news was they at least played the red tees.

And the pro shop… nobody went out to ranger or to check after I texted them from 7 and said they have a problem out there. They said nobody called to complain….WTF?????

 

[Bosco...]

Ooof….

 

[dirty-d]

Teed off yesterday on a long course (lots of travel between holes crossing back and forth over a river) that was recently redone (walking only) and finished 18 in about 3:30.

I still maintain a walking group of equal playing speed/ ability is faster than cart group sharing carts on all but the craziest long travel between holes courses.

 

[Bosco...]

What percentage of people playing are actually trying to post a score?

 

[bkuehn1952]

Teed off yesterday on a long course (lots of travel between holes crossing back and forth over a river) that was recently redone (walking only) and finished 18 in about 3:30.

I still maintain a walking group of equal playing speed/ ability is faster than cart group sharing carts on all but the craziest long travel between holes courses.

I can't agree. In many situations, yes, a walking group can be faster. When you have four people in two carts who play and move efficiently, the walkers can't move at the same speed, all other factors similar. At a brisk pace, the walkers can walk 250 yards in about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes. The carts will be to the ball in about 1 minute and everyone will have hit and moved on before the walkers have arrived. You are correct that when carts are used inefficiently, walkers may move along faster and more often than not, the cart riders are inefficient.

 

[echico]

I can't agree. In many situations, yes, a walking group can be faster. When you have four people in two carts who play and move efficiently, the walkers can't move at the same speed, all other factors similar. At a brisk pace, the walkers can walk 250 yards in about 2 1/2 to 3 minutes. The carts will be to the ball in about 1 minute and everyone will have hit and moved on before the walkers have arrived. You are correct that when carts are used inefficiently, walkers may move along faster and more often than not, the cart riders are inefficient.

But if the group is on the group in front of them there is no hit and drive away. There is waiting time. I walk a lot and can tell you I have really only been paired with a few "fast" players. We would catch a group and then they hung back and stopped driving off after they hit. I didn't mind it as I get to my shot and hit the next one on a course I know well. If it is the first group out and you have jack rabbits that are playing polo then of course the carts will be faster than walkers. Most times there really is no difference between walkers and riders.

 

[bkuehn1952]

What percentage of people playing are actually trying to post a score?

My AI-assisted search states that 10% of golfers have a USGA-approved handicap. There may be a significant number of players who have a non-GHIN index through an app so maybe 1 out of 7 or 8 players might be posting their score at the end of the round. Everyone else is gambling with their buddies, playing against par or just flailing away for fun.

 

[bkuehn1952]

But if the group is on the group in front of them there is no hit and drive away. There is waiting time. I walk a lot and can tell you I have really only been paired with a few "fast" players. We would catch a group and then they hung back and stopped driving off after they hit. I didn't mind it as I get to my shot and hit the next one on a course I know well. If it is the first group out and you have jack rabbits that are playing polo then of course the carts will be faster than walkers. Most times there really is no difference between walkers and riders.

Yes, when there is waiting involved, carts and walking are essentially equal. I took @dirty-d 's comment, perhaps incorrectly, to mean on an empty course a walking foursome can keep pace with a riding foursome. Many riding foursomes are very inefficient and do not move along as quickly as may be possible or they wait on the group in front. I think that is why many of us walkers expect to keep pace with riders most of the time.

 

[Bosco...]

My AI-assisted search states that 10% of golfers have a USGA-approved handicap. There may be a significant number of players who have a non-GHIN index through an app so maybe 1 out of 7 or 8 players might be posting their score at the end of the round. Everyone else is gambling with their buddies, playing against par or just flailing away for fun.

Then in that case, if double-bogey was max score then POP should decrease and scoring would increase. Win/win.

Is that bad? Crazy talk? Or even a possibility?

 

[bkuehn1952]

Then in that case, if double-bogey was max score then POP should decrease and scoring would increase. Win/win.

Is that bad? Crazy talk? Or even a possibility?

You may be on to something. If a course firmly stated that all players must pickup, record a triple bogey and move on once double bogey was reached, things should move along a bit better. Really poor players and beginners would not make the mistake of playing the ball into the hole in 12 strokes. Gamblers could factor in the "maximum triple bogey" limit with their wagering. Players just out having fun will have more time to drink and listen to tunes. The only players that might have an issue with "pickup after you reach double bogey and record triple" would be purists and those with playing handicaps over 36.

 

[Bosco...]

You may be on to something. If a course firmly stated that all players must pickup, record a triple bogey and move on once double bogey was reached, things should move along a bit better. Really poor players and beginners would not make the mistake of playing the ball into the hole in 12 strokes. Gamblers could factor in the "maximum triple bogey" limit with their wagering. Players just out having fun will have more time to drink and listen to tunes. The only players that might have an issue with "pickup after you reach double bogey and record triple" would be purists and those with playing handicaps over 36.

Well, not to be a Richard…..there’s a Par 3 down the road they can play.

Or should be.

Max score on a par 72 would be 126. Trick is to “legitimize” the triple bogey as a “real” score. In other words, so people’s feelings don’t get hurt. Even friggin kids sports has a slaughter rule.

 

[Bus]

But if the group is on the group in front of them there is no hit and drive away. There is waiting time. I walk a lot and can tell you I have really only been paired with a few "fast" players. We would catch a group and then they hung back and stopped driving off after they hit. I didn't mind it as I get to my shot and hit the next one on a course I know well. If it is the first group out and you have jack rabbits that are playing polo then of course the carts will be faster than walkers. Most times there really is no difference between walkers and riders.

I've never had a problem keeping up with 2 golfers in one cart while I was walking. Got run into the ground again the other day by 2 solos in their own carts though.