Course setup to reign in bomb and gouge

[greenOak]

Let me preface this by saying I personally don't have a problem with bomb and gouge. Nevertheless, many do, so what can courses do to punish this type of playstyle? Many (not me) thought Winged Foot with its narrow fairways and gnarly rough would be such a course but after last week I think we can put that idea to rest. I have my own opinions on this but I'd love to hear yours.

 

[Sox_Fan]

I thought Winged Foot would but was obviously wrong. I have no suggestions but will be interested to read those of others.

 

[WLG1952]

Let me preface this by saying I personally don't have a problem with bomb and gouge. Nevertheless, many do, so what can courses do to punish this type of playstyle? Many (not me) thought Winged Foot with its narrow fairways and gnarly rough would be such a course but after last week I think we can put that idea to rest. I have my own opinions on this but I'd love to hear yours.

Grow the second, or 3rd cut of rough knee high. No one gouges out of knee high rough.

 

[greenOak]

IMO one of the problems with Winged Foot was that the fairways were simply too narrow. When you shrink the fairways to 25 yards wide everyone in the field will miss a lot of them (Field average was only 39%). Then everyone is playing out of the thick rough but only the highest swing speed guys can actually deal with it. Bryson basically said this before the tournament started but many shrugged him off. Truth be told, I think courses with thick rough usually give a big advantage to the bombers.

 

[greenOak]

Grow the second, or 3rd cut of rough knee high. No one gouges out of knee high rough.

I think you'd be surprised lol.

Still I agree with the premise that you pretty much need true penalty hazards to discourage hitting driver as far as you can. Thinking of TPC Sawgrass which gave Mickelson (long but erratic) fits for his entire career. The fairways aren't particularly narrow, and the rough isn't particularly deep, but if you hit one significantly offline you're taking a penalty.

 

[OldandStiff]

No one gouges anything once they're wet. You want to see someone play conservatively? Make any decently large miss go swimming.

I'm only half joking. Picture courses with large sand waste areas instead of rough. Now picture those areas with 1 foot deep water instead of sand. 6" even.

 

[blueonblack]

The scope and grandeur of that course were AWESOME. But.....those greens are pretty darn large. Huge.
I think they even made mention of this fact during the broadcast. But not that it was going to help the players. Just to make it seem like they are large and easier to 3 putt.

Seemed like they all knew where to hit it. Getting a "local" for the tournament isn't in the books, anymore. Digitally analyzed greens books.
They marvel at the "young guns" coming out and being ready, and "gee, how do they do it?"

Easier to bomb it onto large greens with funnels back to the hole. Sound familiar? Almost Augusta in reverse. Oakmont '08 seemed to be about that way, which came up in the coverage, kinda. Get these guys inside 10 feet and its almost like that stat is all that matters in the world at that point.
Who is numero uno inside 10 feet again? Some Bryson guy? So pick a venue with greens which repel so that bomb and gouge is not possible.
And where 3 putts might REALLY happen.

Smaller greens woulda done it. The trees seem to bother everyone plenty. Give them some muni sand donated from every county in the Nation and send the white fluffy stuff to the munis. Kinda like you're supposed to send in the water from your pond for the NHL zamboni to forge into home ice, but much more malevalent.

Seems newer venues with not much overall familiarity might add flavor to the mix.

With no more crowds, they can play ANYWHERE.
What's that one in New Jersey, Pine something....

 

[tahoebum]

Length is always an advantage. Bryson had amazing iron play, short game, and putting. He only had two bogies in the last 34 holes. There is no way of defending a bomber off the tee when they are great putters and Bryson was best on tour on putts inside of 10 feet last year.

The course was set up super tight. Bryson didn’t hit many fairways but he was tied for 26th in that category for the week. He was also 5th in GIR.

Tiger was a bomb and gouge it guy. I don’t think he ever had a year where he finished higher than 50th in driving accuracy and most years he was ranking below 100th in driving accuracy. His stellar iron play, short game, and putting along with his length allowed him to dominate.

 

[tequila4kapp]

Winged Foot DID combat B&G. And every other style of golf, too. Only 1 person amongst the very best players in the entire world broke par. At some point people just need to accept that BDC played phenomenal golf.

 

[jvbart]

If you really wanted to stop it I would think you have wide fairways from 250-300 that narrow a lot after 300. You could also put heavier tree cover off the fairways so players need to punch out if they miss. More dog legs where cutting the dog leg is risky. Maybe water or really high trees.

I hit significantly further than my playing partners and one of the courses we play seems to really punish my type of game. A good example is the first par 5. Really wide landing zone from 200-270. Water comes into play right at 290 and anything down the right side has potential to roll in. I have lost a lot of balls into that’s water on slightly off line drives.

 

[blueonblack]

If you really wanted to stop it I would think you have wide fairways from 250-300 that narrow a lot after 300. You could also put heavier tree cover off the fairways so players need to punch out if they miss. More dog legs where cutting the dog leg is risky. Maybe water or really high trees.

I hit significantly further than my playing partners and one of the courses we play seems to really punish my type of game. A good example is the first par 5. Really wide landing zone from 200-270. Water comes into play right at 290 and anything down the right side has potential to roll in. I have lost a lot of balls into that’s water on slightly off line drives.

So play every tournament at Augusta, and use a 3W/hybrid already.

 

[jvbart]

So play every tournament at Augusta, and use a 3W/hybrid already.

I’ve taken my 3 wood out of the bag as I just can’t figure it out. I’m getting better at laying up with hybrids more often but my ego still makes me pull driver way more than I should. My friends are all better golfers than me and driving the ball far is the one place I can beat them. Doesn’t help my scores but it’s fun to try and bomb it.

 

[blueonblack]

Used to play a short little course the next state over with elevation changes, really fast firm sloping greens, doglegs, trees everywhere, water, bunkers. Some greens were huge, some were small. I was long hitter in group and it didn't do much for me there. Iron game had to be on point. Had to get something in the fairway. And you often were teeing up into a hillside on the fairways, which killed your drives. That's an equalizer.
Had to play it a few times to get the hang of the elevation changes. Challenging bunkers. Super fun course.

Yes, once, again, lost to development. It was a private and the clubhouse was nice and everything. They had just re-habbed it in fact.
Get me on a course where there is an elevational pull from the sloping terrain around, and I can't visually see where low ground truly is, that messes with my putting/green reading SO bad. That might counteract the digital greens books. But Bryson will do the math on the area's gravitational pull.
Study up, chaps.

 

[blueonblack]

Oh the holes lost to re-development:

First hole. Severely uphill. Very wide fairway, as its the first hole. Green awaits at the top. Bunkers flank left and right, four of them, 2 short and 2 long.
Green and bunkers are sorta rectangular in effect, set horizontal to the fairway with slope back to front pretty severe.
It was about 300 to the top. Which was designed for persimmon. We were using steel at the time that was no larger and slightly longer. So fun to open, essentially with a driving contest withtout a lot of penalty for left/right deviation until the top with those bunkers and narrowing fairway and rough. Until you got to the very top, it was a blind shot into the green and could only see the top of the flagstick. Grow the rough like crazy all around the green and bunkers. Leave that little front opening.

Adjust for modern equipment distance with the teebox distance. I'd do about 380 for today's drivers. See if they can get it uphill enough for that nice look at the green anyway, and set the stage for drama if anyone can get it on with roll. Plenty of guys could do it now. Shorter hitters could still manage. Oh the opening hole...

 

[M2Giles]

To stop bomb and gorge,

Fairways have to be narrower closer to the green. Winged Foot was the opposite and a lot of the shorter hitters were still playing out of the rough.

Greens need trouble short and long. Playing out of the rough usually means lack of spin hindering distance control. Winged Foot you pretty much could play to the false front. Worse case you were at the foot of the green and best case you were near the hole. Only a few guys went long into the green side rough. Those guys ran into the most trouble.

Bunkers need to be penal. These guys are fantastic out of bunkers but I think across the board the bunkers were less of a penalty than the rough.

Small greens. Winged Foot had massive sized greens. While smaller greens may mean more 1 and 2 putts, small greens built to repel the ball means more scrambling from missed shots and means playing from the fairway to control spin and distance will help.

That said, looking at these I feel like I kinda described a Pebble Beach US Open setup and even that got torn apart when the wind wasn't blowing. I think at a certain point we have to accept that these guys are good. Bryson played some amazing golf and I think it's a disservice to him to say he simply bombed and gorged his way to victory. Dude was a machine on and around the greens.

 

[DataDude]

I thought Winged Foot would but was obviously wrong. I have no suggestions but will be interested to read those of others.

Winged foot had tight fairways from start to finish and many of the holes started opening up at the 300 yard line. Same as Bethpage Black. It makes bombing a necessity instead of a luxury.


Diamond shaped holes are the answer. The diamond doesn't have to be wide, but it should be it's widest at about 280 for PGA Tour pros. then the hole should narrow toward the green and the hazards should be placed at 300-320. When you lay back you have a safer landing area, but a longer approach, when you rip one the landing area tightens and hazards come into play, but the approach is shorter. The fairways and greens should be firm and fast where it is even tougher to stay in the longer you go where the fairway is narrowing. The rough should be kept long and I like the idea of moguls in the rough to make for weird standing positions at address if there aren't a lot of trees.

 

[McLovin]

more sand. more water. firmer greens. worse areas around the greens.

 

[DataDude]

To stop bomb and gorge,

Fairways have to be narrower closer to the green. Winged Foot was the opposite and a lot of the shorter hitters were still playing out of the rough.

Greens need trouble short and long. Playing out of the rough usually means lack of spin hindering distance control. Winged Foot you pretty much could play to the false front. Worse case you were at the foot of the green and best case you were near the hole. Only a few guys went long into the green side rough. Those guys ran into the most trouble.

Bunkers need to be penal. These guys are fantastic out of bunkers but I think across the board the bunkers were less of a penalty than the rough.

Small greens. Winged Foot had massive sized greens. While smaller greens may mean more 1 and 2 putts, small greens built to repel the ball means more scrambling from missed shots and means playing from the fairway to control spin and distance will help.

That said, looking at these I feel like I kinda described a Pebble Beach US Open setup and even that got torn apart when the wind wasn't blowing. I think at a certain point we have to accept that these guys are good. Bryson played some amazing golf and I think it's a disservice to him to say he simply bombed and gorged his way to victory. Dude was a machine on and around the greens.

You've got it exactly. While Pebble Beach had low scoring the tournament was fair. I don't think they can stop low scoring, but they can't give Bryson a 10 stroke advantage because he hits it 20 yards farther than everyone else. I think the big greens played into his favor too. More putting and less chipping. He is a great putter and has a below average short game. The redo that Gil Hanse did on Winged Foot 5 years ago was already obsolete. He designed it for the long ball to be a 280ish carry landing in the toughest part of the fairway and now there are several players who can carry it 300+. There was nothing to worry about when the ball landed 300 and totaled 320 on many of the holes at Winged Foot. Bryson basically matched this course perfectly and he didn't do anything to screw up. He started Thursday with 5-8 strokes over the majority of the field and he didn't give them back. The guys like Finau, Rory, Thomas, and DJ just made too many mistakes to hang with him.

In the top 10 there were 2 players that don't average 300 off the tee. Webb Simpson and Zach Johnson. Webb (short hitter) averages 296 and ZJ averages 285. Zach Johnson gained 9.5 strokes putting and finished 12 strokes back. That's a heck of a putting week and it helped him be up the leaderboard. Webb is the overall best player on tour on par 70 courses with difficult setups.

Pebble Beach and Pinehurst are great setups for a US Open I think. Easier driving and harder approaches make for great golf tournaments. Very difficult driving courses or easy greens mean bombs away.

 

[Scorp]

I heard a while back on the fried egg podcast... I think it was an interview with Tom Doak... that the PGA tour didn't like pin positions on more than 2 degrees of slope.

Want to stop bomb and gouge and make the course more difficult? Put the pins on slopes greater than 2 degrees... and roll them until the stimp meter screams.

And don't allow greens books. Keep the knowledge of the lay of the greens a secret until tournament day. Then, each night, after the rounds are done, change them. Keep them guessing.

 

[tahoebum]

I think a lot of people don’t know that guys like Rory and DJ drove it farther than Bryson(7th in driving distance) this week and the fact that Bryson was straighter than most of the field as he was ranked 26th. He won not just because of length but because he was ranked 5th in GIR, putted well, and got up and down a lot from tough spots.

 

[tahoebum]

Strokes gained is often the most useful stat. Sour grapes Rory actually gained more strokes this week off the tee than Bryson and putted almost as well but was way worse on his approach shots and around the green. Bryson was strong in all 4 categories and nobody could match him. Golf and winning majors are still about having the complete game that week.

 

[WICHITAREJECT]

Since THP wasn't around in 2000 when TW won by 100 strokes, was everybody wringing their hands or just congratulating GREAT golf??

 

[gmiller598]

 

[Architex]

According to BAD himself is have very high Bermuda rough. That is what got him at Eastlake. As someone who mainly plays at courses with Bermuda, when it is very high it is next to impossible to hit good shots out of it. I think it is due to the density of small blade grass.


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[mikeg_74]

The Winged Foot set up was fine and did the job it needed to do based on the set up. Where they went wrong was with the Thursday set up. It was too easy and they took advantage. Make Thursday harder and you see a different leader board imo. Would Bryson have still won? Maybe, maybe not. I know that for all the banter about course set up not being able to tame bomb and gouge, his short game (putting specifically) won him that tournament more than his length imo.