Feeling completely hopeless - over-the-top swing

[WILDTHING]

Ignore the follow-through on that particular video. I’m conscious of smacking the club into a wardrobe and am deliberately decelerating through impact. That video was really just to show the transition/early downswing.

Not sure about the spine tilt though. Doesn’t feel like I’m doing that and I am rotating my torso beyond 90 degrees which is why you can see my shoulder bone sticking out at the top of the backswing. As to whether there’s any tilt in the spine, I certainly don’t feel any but that doesn’t necessarily mean there isn’t any.

At the top of my backswing I would say my weight is 40:60 in favour of the right leg.


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You might be correct about the 40:60 in favour of the right leg (see image below of a Stack And Tilt type swing that uses a centralised spinal loading but less leftwards centralised than yourself).

You will see a clearer version of this image in the link below but the top of the backswing for this Stack and Tilt golfer is 35:65 left : right .

S&T 2.0 DVDs and Pressure/Weight Forward - An Examination - Swing Thoughts - The Sand Trap .com

But I doubt you will be able to do the 'Hogan Power Move' without more weight pressure loading on the right leg/hip. The more weight pressure on the right leg/hip, the more impedance you will create to limit a right hip spinout in the early downswing.

 

[luckydutch]

You might be correct about the 40:60 in favour of the right leg (see image below of a Stack And Tilt type swing that uses a centralised spinal loading but less leftwards centralised than yourself).

You will see a clearer version of this image in the link below but the top of the backswing for this Stack and Tilt golfer is 35:65 left : right .

S&T 2.0 DVDs and Pressure/Weight Forward - An Examination - Swing Thoughts - The Sand Trap .com

But I doubt you will be able to do the 'Hogan Power Move' without more weight pressure loading on the right leg/hip. The more weight pressure on the right leg/hip, the more impedance you will create to limit a right hip spinout in the early downswing.

View attachment 9048005

So I actually want to allow more weight pressure on the right side during the backswing?

That’s interesting because I’ve seen loads of videos talking about it being a common fault that people lean right in the backswing so I try to avoid that.

But if I am understanding correctly, there’s a difference between weight right and leaning right? I keep my torso over the ball in the backswing but let my weight shift more to my right leg?


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[WILDTHING]

So I actually want to allow more weight pressure on the right side during the backswing?

That’s interesting because I’ve seen loads of videos talking about it being a common fault that people lean right in the backswing so I try to avoid that.

But if I am understanding correctly, there’s a difference between weight right and leaning right? I keep my torso over the ball in the backswing but let my weight shift more to my right leg?


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Many pro golfers have a upper torso rotary motion around a rightwards tilted spine (ie. a reverse K shape in the backswing) but not too tilted, maybe between B and C below. Image A golfer has too much upper body sway away from the target.

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This is what Dr Mann says on his website:

"I think that a golfer should only use a rightwards-tilted backswing action (or a vertical-centralised backswing action - that is intermediate between photo B and photo C), and I much prefer golfer B over golfer A, because golfer A has too much swaying of his upper torso away from the target. If a golfer sways the upper torso too far away from the target, then he may have a problem with low point consistency (hitting the ground at the same spot - low point - swing-after-swing), because he has to sway his upper torso too much forwards in the downswing. I think that a golfer should try to keep his torso relatively centralised between his feet during the entire backswing action, and I think that a golfer should minimise any unnecessary weight shift to the right during the backswing action. I think that the "most desirable" upper torso motion in the backswing can be summarised in one swing thought - as essentially being a centralised upper torso rotation around a rightwards-tilted spine."
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You need a bit more weight pressure on your right leg/hip to limit spinout in the early downswing (just before the hips square) but not so much that will cause your upper torso to sway too much to the right in the backswing (a slightly rightwards tilted spine will assist you ).




Here are some golfers who have a right tilted spine in the backswing

Jamie Sadlowski



Jack Nicklaus


Mickey Wright


Ben Hogan



Moe Norman



Rory


Tiger

 

[WMac19]

I'm big on trying the simple stuff first. In the still pic of you at the top of your swing, your right foot looks very square. That's not at all a problem for most but it appears as if your right knee torques some and flexes outside or at an angle to your right foot.

Assuming this is what's happening, when I've seen it with others live, the very first thing the body is gonna want to do is regain its balance and stability at the start of the downswing by rotating to reset that pivot point. It's often a very subtle move but enough to encourage an OTT approach.

Simple check/possible solution is to flare that right foot out slightly just to see if this may be your issue at all. That would encourage your knee to flex with stability, knee over toes and short circuit the subconscious urge to compensate correctively at the start of the downswing.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I’m kinda concerned you’ve been through two instructors and still have all theses questions.

I think your obsession with being as “steep” as some professionals is off base. Their hands are higher than yours at the top. They are professionals. Your position at the top has a lot of things going for it. Your swing in the first video is pretty darn solid. In the others the OTT is pretty evident.

Are you familiar with the famous Hogan graphic with the plane of glass? The ‘steep to shallow’ thing just means your hands and the shaft stay below the pane. Doesn’t mean you have to get into that Tiger position with the hands super high at the top. Some people describe the first move from the top as getting into the slot, elbow down, hands down, etc. IMO you go OTT when you get out of sequence and have your first move start with the hands instead of the hips.

 

[rustyhinges]

Early Extension -- The Solution

 

[luckydutch]

I'm big on trying the simple stuff first. In the still pic of you at the top of your swing, your right foot looks very square. That's not at all a problem for most but it appears as if your right knee torques some and flexes outside or at an angle to your right foot.

Assuming this is what's happening, when I've seen it with others live, the very first thing the body is gonna want to do is regain its balance and stability at the start of the downswing by rotating to reset that pivot point. It's often a very subtle move but enough to encourage an OTT approach.

Simple check/possible solution is to flare that right foot out slightly just to see if this may be your issue at all. That would encourage your knee to flex with stability, knee over toes and short circuit the subconscious urge to compensate correctively at the start of the downswing.

This actually made an enormous impact!

I had a quick session at the range today and tried flaring out the feet and knees just a tiny bit. In doing so I also noticed that I was addressing the ball with my right shoulder I tiny bit open to target so I just let that right shoulder turn back a tiny bit with the foot.

The results were great. I was still doing a pretty inconsistent job of shallowing the club in the downswing but it really felt like I wasn’t battling the OTT quite so bad.

The shots where I came in steep were still ok. Typically a slight pull (straight) to the left or a slight fade but nowhere near as bad as before. Contact was improved to. Wasn’t hitting as many fat shots that hurt my wrist.

I also noticed that my wrists were a little stiff too so relaxed them a tiny bit so the club head speed was controlling the wrist angle through the downswing, not my wrist muscles. This seemed to add quite a bit of power back into the swing as I regained some of that previously lost distance.

Maybe just maybe it’s possible for me to solve my issues. Need to get to the root of this OTTove still, though.

Here’s two from today. They’re not great tbh. I do more of a backswing than I meant to and come down pretty steep but despite that, the OTT isn’t as bad and my hips aren’t stalling at much at impact as they have done previously. They still a bit after impact still but I guess that’s not as damaging.

https://imgur.com/a/OPqRbfX

https://imgur.com/a/HdlPtf2

 

[luckydutch]

I’m kinda concerned you’ve been through two instructors and still have all theses questions.

I think your obsession with being as “steep” as some professionals is off base. Their hands are higher than yours at the top. They are professionals. Your position at the top has a lot of things going for it. Your swing in the first video is pretty darn solid. In the others the OTT is pretty evident.

Are you familiar with the famous Hogan graphic with the plane of glass? The ‘steep to shallow’ thing just means your hands and the shaft stay below the pane. Doesn’t mean you have to get into that Tiger position with the hands super high at the top. Some people describe the first move from the top as getting into the slot, elbow down, hands down, etc. IMO you go OTT when you get out of sequence and have your first move start with the hands instead of the hips.

Yeah I think you’re right. I abandoned the advice about getting steep at the top today and just did my normal backswing and combined with a few other tips, I saw immediate improvement.


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[TrueMotionMatt]

Amazon sells shorter rubber tees for mats like what you're pictured on. Some THPers have like 3 different lengths for different things.
And they also have tripods for phones and cameras. That could help

If you're hitting the mat hard enough to cause pain, something isn't right. That could cause the lie of your clubs to change if it's done too long. <-- I think.


I'm not swing expert but if you're sliding your hips backwards and forwards through your swing that might cause problems too.

How is your swing and contact if you swing with your weight preloaded onto your left leg?

Maybe @TrueMotionMatt could offer some assistance?:confused2:

The simplest explanation is that you're coming in steep with an open face, and you can't rotate or you'll hit it straight right. The throw and thrust is the only way to square up the face.

Fix the steep, don't pull on the handle down, then fix the face, and then go super slow to learn how to rotate.