Good or Bad Results, a Golfer's Swing is Consistently the Same?

[JonMA1]

This has been a topic on the internet for several years. It's sometimes the response when anyone posts their desire for a more consistent swing and I've always thought of that reply as being almost useless.

I would readily agree that we use the same basic swing and that basic flaws remain regardless of the outcome of the shot. I also believe that there are "good" mechanics which can setup a golfer to successfully minimize both the frequency and degree of wayward shots as well as poor contact.

At the same time, I believe a swing that - even if far less than perfect - is not always the reason for high scores. I also believe that there are small, almost indiscernible to the naked eye variations that cause the difference between a well-struck and online shot and one that results in a penalty and that those small variations have a greater impact on score.

So for someone like me - a lifer in the Trying to Break 100 thread - I'll seek lessons to try to improve. The instructor watches me take a few swings and sees the same repeating flaws with every swing. Regardless of the results of the shot, he or she is taking mental notes on what to change. Line up 5 different instructors and they may very well address 5 different "weaknesses" or priorities.

But what if the mechanics are not the root cause of the problem? If I compare video of my swing to that of a tour player, even I can see the differences - and they're substantial. The trouble is, I'm not looking to be a tour player. I'm not even looking to get to single-digits. I'm simply hoping to play bogey golf on a consistent level.

Having explained this to several instructors, I've had exactly one say that my basic swing is fine for that goal. Instead of a swing overhaul, he had me working on the mental game and a pre-shot routine with intent of reducing the slight variations that cause inconsistent results. Looking back, that may have been a better approach.

Like most high cappers, I have the ability to hit very good shots with every club in the bag. I also have the ability to go through a series of shots where I cannot make good contact or worse make great contact and fail to control the club face. And like most, these two extremes will happen in the same round.

After years of recording swings into the net, at the range and during a round of golf, I've come to the conclusion that I can easily go back and forth to drastically different swings.

So to the question in title, I say BS... kind of.

I can also look at video of two swings that look as close to exactly the same with two drastically different results. Which brings me to my point... some of us struggle more than average in controlling the very small degree of consistency it takes to play this game at a slightly higher level. And it might have very little to do with my general swing.

So what do you say THPers? No doubt it's a combination of both. But is either more important - decent swing mechanics or ability? Do you know golfer whose swings don't match their ability? Can we improve without focusing as much on swing changes? Do factors like age and a target level of golf come into play? If so, how?

 

[Acesteve]

I believe my issues and my improvement is about simplifying the game and improving fundamentals. when I watch great players in person they appear to have very little movement and very good balance; almost the opposite of what I see in my Saturday morning foursome

upon further study, I see that many good players have a grip and takeaway that makes the swing look far simpler then what I'm trying to do.

My point is the notion of getting more consistant may be flawed if the motions we are trying to replicate are not only in error but not repeatable. Simple motions can be repeated and apparently repeated under pressure

 

[Puttmaster]

Long answer short: if a player has “the ability to hit very good shots with every club in the bag,” then, yes, focusing on GASP - grip, aim, stance, posture - should enable that player to consistently shoot under 100.

Simply committing to having ONLY the target and ball flight/path pictured in your mind during every swing/putt will summon your brain’s power to help make that happen. Replace multiple swing thoughts and tension with relaxed GASP and you will break 100 every time.

Be smart with your target and club selection, play away from penalty areas, and have confidence in your putting. Play for no worse than bogey on every hole and you’ll be breaking 90, too.

 

[Jason89er]

Check out Mike Adams and Biomechanics. Find a swing that is comfortable for you. Find 3 key components in that swing. Setup/takeaway/follow through.
Build a Preshot Routine that allows you to use the same 3 in all shots.
Go to the range and engrain it. Driver, FWs, Irons. Do your preshot routine on all practice shots. Do the same for pitching/chipping/putting.
Rince and repeat. Practice this way every single time. In the net or at a full range.
This worked for me. I stopped taking videos of my swing. Created too many thoughts.

I stopped comparing myself to pros. It’s a waste of time. Those players are gifted athletes that have dedicated their lives to playing golf. Find your swing. Stop guessing and accept what you can and can’t do physically.

And most of all….have fun. Enjoy it. Relax and just have fun.

 

[McLovin]

So what do you say THPers? No doubt it's a combination of both. But is either more important - decent swing mechanics or ability? Do you know golfer whose swings don't match their ability? Can we improve without focusing as much on swing changes? Do factors like age and a target level of golf come into play? If so, how?

i believe some people are just naturally gifted athletically. they have an innate sense of how to use their bodies to achieve a desired result with maximum output. it’s a gift that cannot be learned.

but i do think most everyone without physical limitations can learn a proper grip, stance, alignment, posture, etc. once in a proper setup, i think most people can be taught and implement a functional swing.

after that, if the golfer can pick the proper tees and play within themselves, i think breaking 100 is possible for everyone. and breaking 90 is possible for most.

 

[leftshot]

I believe my issues and my improvement is about simplifying the game and improving fundamentals. when I watch great players in person they appear to have very little movement and very good balance; almost the opposite of what I see in my Saturday morning foursome

upon further study, I see that many good players have a grip and takeaway that makes the swing look far simpler then what I'm trying to do.

YES THIS! But too few golfers have this focus.

Go to any public driving range and you’ll see a long line of players with two characteristics.

1. A ball bound focus where they try to manipulate the club to somehow hit that ball.

2. The almost universal THUMP / click sound as the club crashes into the mat then bounces off and hits some part of the ball. But no one seems to notice, because this continues until the last ball.

 

[Jason89er]

i believe some people are just naturally gifted athletically. they have an innate sense of how to use their bodies to achieve a desired result with maximum output. it’s a gift that cannot be learned.

but i do think most everyone without physical limitations can learn a proper grip, stance, alignment, posture, etc. once in a proper setup, i think most people can be taught and implement a functional swing.

after that, if the golfer can pick the proper tees and play within themselves, i think breaking 100 is possible for everyone. and breaking 90 is possible for most.

Agreed.
Look. Golf is hard. Anyone who decides that golf is the game/sport they want to play on a level where they get good at it, should accept that it’s hard. It’s not going to be easy. It’s a long uphill climb that can be challenging to the mind, will, body and often your soul. Once you take it seriously and commit to getting to the next level (ie breaking 90 consistently) be prepared for its challenges. And enjoy the ride!

 

[leftshot]

If I was a golf instructor at a course with a public driving range, I’d arrange for a time when 20 bays were set aside at a specified day/time each week. Have players pay $3-$5 more for a bucket of balls and come to the designated area knowing the instructor will on a rotating basis observe each player and give them each one thing to work on.

This would be beneficial to the golfer and instructor.

 

[Acesteve]

I stopped comparing myself to pros. It’s a waste of time. Those players are gifted athletes that have dedicated their lives to playing golf. Find your swing. Stop guessing and accept what you can and can’t do physically.

My dentist of 40 years was club champion in my hometown for about 10 years. Long after he stopped playing much he told me one day watch the women PGA players not the men. I looked at him kind of in doubt. He said most of the women are mechanics and most of the men are artists. His point was that many guys do things and excel at it that would be almost impossible to replicate. by comparion, many women top players exhibit classic golf training.

 

[Acesteve]

Agreed.
Look. Golf is hard. Anyone who decides that golf is the game/sport they want to play on a level where they get good at it, should accept that it’s hard. It’s not going to be easy. It’s a long uphill climb that can be challenging to the mind, will, body and often your soul. Once you take it seriously and commit to getting to the next level (ie breaking 90 consistently) be prepared for its challenges. And enjoy the ride!

golf is silly hard for sure. I believe golf is more mentally hard then physical unless someone has an injury. Reasons I feel this way.

1- I was not smart enough for many years to grasp the power of balance. Even when I could hit a ball further on one leg during a round I was unable to see that fundamentally what I was doing was forcing myself to stay on balance, still and swing around my body

2- Reading and watching golf, not able to grasp how others swing with a firm lead arm and around the body; on balance. I continued to rock back and slide forward through the shot.

3- Now that I start to get it, I can't replicate it consistantly. At least 10 swings in my round, I loose my mind and try and kill the ball. balance is gone, reverse pivots, fat shots. Note I'm playing for nothing but fun

I'm sure that raw athletisim plays a role in our potential but I don't think that explains why most guys can't hit a ball relatively straight most of the time. I think too many people limit potential thinking they can't make the moves required. note, I'm not talking about top level golf just playing the Saturday round on a local course well.

 

[chile]

i think a wise jedi said it best...

 

[InTheRough]

1) The guys whom we see play on TV are athletic freaks of nature. Realize that. This goes for the women's side, too. They're outside of the standard deviation of athletic ability.
2) Know your own athletic ability. Know your limitations. Clint Eastwood said in a movie "... man's gotta know his limitations." Truer words were never said. While it's nice to reach for the stars, the stars are not for everyone.

This said I see a lot of movement in people's golf swings both on the course and at the driving range. I know I probably have a lot of excessive motion in my own swing. I play with guys a lot. The biggest swing fault I see is the hip slide on the back swing. The guys aren't rotating their hips, they're sliding back and then forward on the down swing. It's very consistent. "Shirt back, then pocket back." - but rotate instead of slide, that's the key.

Also... playing for pars when you're not ready to play for pars can lead to big numbers. Case in point. I normally play 5600 - 5700 yd tees. I play for pars. I usually shoot around 90. Yesterday I tried playing from over 6200 yds with the guys. I played for pars on the front 9. I put up some big numbers. It was very stressful. I was not having fun. Around the 9th hole - I'm slow in the head - I finally realized I'm not going to get par on 400 yd par 4s. So I on the back 9 I played for bogeys. I played clubs I could hit well. Thus the back 9 was stress-free, and I improved my score by 13 strokes. I didn't get a single par, but I didn't get a single score over bogey either. I had a shot at par on two holes, but those are on my putter.

Did my swing change? No. By removing the stress, my swing got more relaxed and I was hitting better shots.

I think the solution to lower scores is to know your limitations and play within them. Your stress level will be lower on the course. Your swing will be more consistent because you won't be trying to kill the ball. You'll hit better shots. And don't forget the goal is to leave yourself at the distance where you're hitting a club you're comfortable with for getting on the green. If that's a 8i, leave yourself at that distance.

 

[WLG1952]

I think for any golfer who has played the game for quite a while, on a regular basis, their swing is going to be consistent to some high degree.

I had it explained to me like this. NOTE: don't take these numbers to heart. I'm iust using them as examples. Everyone is different.

Say for instance a golfer has a repeatable, decent swing, 70% of the time. 30%of their poor ball flights can be attributed a poor swing mechanics.

The other 70% of their poor ball flights could be attributed to mistakes in body alignment, ball position in the stance, and mental indecisions just to name a few.

This made some sense to me because I had already seen some really great ball flights, from some really ugly swings.

 

[Gus R]

Post deleted

 

[wadesworld]

I'll be repeating much of what I usually say, but who doesn't love to hear me talk? . (Kidding, no need to answer)

One can become a reasonably good golfer with a horribly flawed swing by learning to effectively manage those flaws. But one can never become an elite golfer while those flaws remain.

To put it in regular guy-context, you might learn to manage your flaws well enough to occasionally win your flight in a handicapped tournament if you happen to have a really good day. But you're likely never going to become club champion while those flaws remain.

Perfection is unobtainable. If it were obtainable, tour pros would be perfect, and they're not. The mental game is HUGE. The mental game is why a pro can win a major one week and miss the cut the next.

"But," you say, "I don't want to be club champion."

Well, let me give you a great argument: technically sound golf is more fun. Having more shots hit with correct mechanics that come off as you envisioned them is more fun. Feeling that perfect contact more often is more fun. Watching a beautiful penetrating ball flight is more fun. Writing down pars and birdies is more fun. It's just a number and shouldn't make a difference, but it's more fun. Sure, you still have struggles and frustrations, but when it's on, it's even more fun.

 

[Junkyard]

@JonMA1 you bring up some good points - based on my experience a player's golf swing is fundamentally the same time after time. Where I believe the greatest deviance comes is in the location/quality of contact as you point out.

Professional golfers are machines - they make the exact same movement over and over hundreds of times a day. The hand/eye co-ordination and perception they have is ridiculous, as is the ability to repeatedly hit the same spot on the club face, and to know when they miss it by a millimetre or two.

Myself, I know for a fact that I make contact over half of the club face but I can produce results. Why? Because I don't try to force it. My body presents physical limitations, so I have had to learn to swing within them. I had an instructor show me that a half-swing shot will go just as far as a full-swing because of the quality of contact. By making the swing more "compact" the club doesn't get off-line, over-the-top, etc. I'm no longer making minor subconscious corrections as I'm trying to hit the ball - all of the swing energy goes into impact. No "wasted" movements if you will.

We all know how to hit a golf ball, and your brain knows what your body needs to do to make contact. The key IMO is to try to remove as much of the excess movement(s) in the swing as this will lead to better contact. Better contact leads to better shots. Better shots lead to lower scores.

 

[Scorp]

But is either more important - decent swing mechanics or ability? Ability moreso than mechanics although mechanics are also needed.
Do you know golfer whose swings don't match their ability? Not personally but yes.
Can we improve without focusing as much on swing changes? Yes.
Do factors like age and a target level of golf come into play? Yes
If so, how? See below

Remember, this is all my opinion. I didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express. I'm not an expert.

It takes a combination of ability and mechanics to get the ball to go where you want it to. I don't have the mechanics down pat but I do have the ability... to swing a club... but my mechanics keep me from the ball going straight or far a lot of the time.

There is a plethora of golfers that have great ability but less than desirable swing mechanics... how many guys and gals do you know that can knock the ball 280-350 yards down the fairway? There are a lot right? How many of these players have good accuracy? not as many right?

Yes we can improve without changing our swings. You said you're taking lessons... the best instructors I'm reading about here and elsewhere are the ones that will look at your swing and use it as it is... or, if you have physical limitations, take them into account and help accommodate them. Some guys/gals have back issues and can't get a full rotation in their swing. Others have shoulder issues... or knee issues... Maybe the guy weighs 350 pounds and his stomach won't allow his swing to be on a correct plane... a good instructor can work with this.

Age comes into play as a factor, yes. Some of us lose flexibility as we age and that affects our swing. A good instructor will work with this.

Having said all of that @JonMA1 there's also a mental factor... a mindset. You're frustrated playing and breaking 100 consistently. I'm right there with you... I've never broken 100 and I've been playing off and on since the early to mid 1990's...

But maybe you're looking at it wrong. Because there's a way to break 100 and it's on a consistent basis and doesn't involves any of the imaginative techniques like the ones that @Hamfist employs.

While I've been known and have admitted that I use winter rules at times outside of winter to my benefit and some creative scoring at times, along with a generous application of the Texas Foot Wedge at times, you don't need to do that to break 100 consistently.

Establish a handicap. Keep it current. And, at the end of your round, apply it to your score... so your score of 102 or 99 or whatever it is, with the handicap of 30 puts you very close to par. Right? They system is there, albeit for competitive fairness in tournaments and such, it can also be used for personal ego.

Plus, if you're struggling to break 100 consistently, maybe you're playing the wrong tees. Consider moving up a set... shorten the course and see if that helps. I've given thought to doing just that myself, but at the course I play the forward tees are within 10-20 yards of the white tees so it's not much of an advantage.

 

[JonMA1]

I'll be repeating much of what I usually say, but who doesn't love to hear me talk? . (Kidding, no need to answer)

Actually, I do enjoy your posts.

One can become a reasonably good golfer with a horribly flawed swing by learning to effectively manage those flaws.

Agreed, many folks can. I've watched a lot of amateur swings, both live and from video. I've seen low single-digit players with swings that look anything but smooth and in-balance. Conversely, I know of another player who posts the most technically sound swing I've ever seen. Steady head, centered hip turn, way past 90° shoulder turn, on plane, great position at impact, and so on. As of a couple of years ago, he struggled as a 15 (which is great by my standards, but way higher than you'd guess from watching his swing).

Obviously, there's something happening with each type of golfer, but the point is, people play very good golf with an ugly swing and vice versa.

Myself, I know for a fact that I make contact over half of the club face but I can produce results. Why? Because I don't try to force it. My body presents physical limitations, so I have had to learn to swing within them. I had an instructor show me that a half-swing shot will go just as far as a full-swing because of the quality of contact. By making the swing more "compact" the club doesn't get off-line, over-the-top, etc. I'm no longer making minor subconscious corrections as I'm trying to hit the ball - all of the swing energy goes into impact. No "wasted" movements if you will.

Funny you should mention shortening up the swing. After years of trying to get to my lead side on the downswing, I'm using a longer swing this year - against the advice of almost everyone who knows this game. The longer swing seems to provide a better timing and tempo mechanism and seems to help to perform a better weight shift. Not great, but better. As soon as I start to shorten the backswing I'm back to swinging too fast and pivoting on my trail foot. But as you mentioned, the downside is that more can go wrong with a longer backswing. With me, it doesn't matter, but for most simplifying the swing is probably very important.

But really, this topic isn't intended to be about my crappy game. It's more a question of chasing the wrong thing or buying into the notion that anyone can improve with enough effort. If we could go back in time knowing what we now know, what would we do differently? We are all different and always searching for the right balance of effort and enjoyment. Since few of us lack the resources and time, it seems like 1) knowing our true potential and 2) finding our true weaknesses or root causes and focusing on that is pretty important. Maybe for one person, it really is about mechanics, and for others the weakness lies in poor course strategy, or improving their GASP, or the mental game.

 

[Junkyard]

But really, this topic isn't intended to be about my crappy game. It's more a question of chasing the wrong thing or buying into the notion that anyone can improve with enough effort. If we could go back in time knowing what we now know, what would we do differently? We are all different and always searching for the right balance of effort and enjoyment. Since few of us lack the resources and time, it seems like 1) knowing our true potential and 2) finding our true weaknesses or root causes and focusing on that is pretty important. Maybe for one person, it really is about mechanics, and for others the weakness lies in poor course strategy, or improving their GASP, or the mental game.

Okay, let's attack this from another angle. Take fitness as an example. You start with someone (let's call him Junkyard) who has been a desk jockey for many years and has put an inch or two on the waistline. Starting out, deadlifting the 45-lb bar is a struggle for more than five or six reps. But, with repetition the bar has plates added on until it totals 280.

You might think I'm comparing apples to oranges (and maybe I am) but I believe that anyone can improve. Not by playing once or twice a year, but if you can play once a week your skills and score will improve.

 

[[snow]]

it's a bit of a nonsense discussion.
You may be able to have the same swing in a lab, but out there in the wild the ball will be above or below your feet, you'll stand on slopes, firm or slippery turf, sand...
If you tried to use the same swing on any of these, you'd constantly be falling over, wrenching your knees, topping balls and digging trenches.

 

[DataDude]

@JonMA1 you bring up some good points - based on my experience a player's golf swing is fundamentally the same time after time. Where I believe the greatest deviance comes is in the location/quality of contact as you point out.

Professional golfers are machines - they make the exact same movement over and over hundreds of times a day. The hand/eye co-ordination and perception they have is ridiculous, as is the ability to repeatedly hit the same spot on the club face, and to know when they miss it by a millimetre or two.

Myself, I know for a fact that I make contact over half of the club face but I can produce results. Why? Because I don't try to force it. My body presents physical limitations, so I have had to learn to swing within them. I had an instructor show me that a half-swing shot will go just as far as a full-swing because of the quality of contact. By making the swing more "compact" the club doesn't get off-line, over-the-top, etc. I'm no longer making minor subconscious corrections as I'm trying to hit the ball - all of the swing energy goes into impact. No "wasted" movements if you will.

We all know how to hit a golf ball, and your brain knows what your body needs to do to make contact. The key IMO is to try to remove as much of the excess movement(s) in the swing as this will lead to better contact. Better contact leads to better shots. Better shots lead to lower scores.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Swing your swing as consistently as possible and make sure you understand what variations in ball position at setup are doing to that swing. For instance if I stand closer to the ball and farther away from the ball what does that do? If I stand with my feet closer together and further apart, what does that do? If I move the ball back and forth in my stance, what does that do. Those are the things that affect face and path contact.

 

[JonMA1]

Okay, let's attack this from another angle. Take fitness as an example. You start with someone (let's call him Junkyard) who has been a desk jockey for many years and has put an inch or two on the waistline. Starting out, deadlifting the 45-lb bar is a struggle for more than five or six reps. But, with repetition the bar has plates added on until it totals 280.

You might think I'm comparing apples to oranges (and maybe I am) but I believe that anyone can improve. Not by playing once or twice a year, but if you can play once a week your skills and score will improve.

I think the comparison is fair and it applies to my opinion as well. When you take two individuals, put them in the exact situation, and have them both workout exactly the same way, one will plateau sooner than the other.

I'm not knowledgeable about statistics, (paging @DataDude ) but if you create a graph showing the potential of the entire population of golfers, you are going to have those on the far right who are so naturally gifted they have the potential to be tour professionals. This is going to be a very small sliver of the far right of the curve. As you move towards the center of the graph, you're going to have those with the potential to play plus, scratch, single digit and 10. Since we're talking potential, those with the potential to play at 10-12 (with reasonable time and effort put in) are going to make up the largest group or the top on the curve. As you continue to track left, the curve will drop - 14... 15... bogey, etc., until you get to a very small percentage of golfers whose potential is not very high. Those folks exist. They may be as rare as scratch golfers, but they simply do not possess the abilities needed to get to even a relatively poor level of golf.

While it's easy - and often correct - to assume those who are struggling are simply not doing something right, it might not always be the case.

Everyone has their definition of athleticism. Many describe it as strength, agility and speed. In most reactionary sports, these are absolutely necessary. But there are so many additional attributes needed to become elite. Good golfers are good athletes - regardless of their physique. While some elite athletes of other sports can and do play golf at a high level, most do not even though they have the resources and time to work at it. So logic tells me that if an individual can play baseball, football, tennis or basketball at an average level, they might still fall into the group of those who cannot play golf at an average level.

Not to turn this back to me (sorry, my experience is all I really know), I've put in the effort, taken lessons and studied the swing. I use logic and a knowledge of my abilities to make decisions on the course and I play shorter tees. I've tried to stay positive and am presently working on alignment and a pre-game routine. I haven't given up because there are still a couple of things I haven't worked on. But after 10 years, the writing is on the wall. I don't know why some struggle while others do not as much. But in every other sport I've ever been involved with, I've been able to take a coach's or another player's advice and apply it towards improvement. Even in golf, short game advice and technique has been golden. The full swing is a different animal. Bogey golf requires a margin of error I simply cannot obtain - or at least sustain. I see it in my nightly practices and during a weekly round of golf.

 

[Jrt13]

My dentist of 40 years was club champion in my hometown for about 10 years. Long after he stopped playing much he told me one day watch the women PGA players not the men. I looked at him kind of in doubt. He said most of the women are mechanics and most of the men are artists. His point was that many guys do things and excel at it that would be almost impossible to replicate. by comparion, many women top players exhibit classic golf training.

Generally agree with some of this. However, I don’t see the artistry in the men’s game as much now versus say 30-40 years ago. Palmer, Trevino, Weiskopf, Miller, Chi-Chi, Ray Floyd, Ballesteros, etc… had very different, distinct swings.
The tempo and balance of the Women’s swing amazes me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[games]

I don't think it's as difficult a process map as we all think.

1. High Cap - Incorrect mental image of how to play basic shots
2. Mid Cap - Correct image / inability to execute
3. Low Cap - Correct image / ability to execute / inconsistency in execution
4. Scratch - Correct image / ability to execute / consistency of execution / excellence of execution

 

[Luchnia]

Maybe I thinking wrong about this, but I do see inconsistencies in a number of areas with swings especially mine. I do generally know what I am doing wrong though which is nice. Granted it is a swing and for the most part you could say it is consistent because we are all swinging in a somewhat circle motion, yet some people don't swing the exact same every time at least from the point of where the arc might be one time and might be different the next. What is worst though is like some have pointed out and that is setup changes and other positional items.

For me, I have to watch my follow through. If I get my weight off my left foot, get my left shoulder up and turn too quickly I come up out of the swing too early. I was hitting some really nice shots yesterday, but I came up on one tee box and topped the ball. I was joking with the guys I was playing with and said, I think my mind finished the shot before I actually hit the ball.

We got a good laugh out of that, but even as a joke there is something to the reason I finished before I should have finished thus topping my tee shot.