Louis_Posture
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This is true, but people do not realize it because a mishit putt is less obvious than a mishit tee shot.Putting is way harder, much less tolerances for misses
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This is true, but people do not realize it because a mishit putt is less obvious than a mishit tee shot.Putting is way harder, much less tolerances for misses
Actually, you just added to the list of variables that have to be taken into account to evaluate which is harder driving or putting.I don't believed there are as many variable or complexities as you suggest. For example, one common factor is that all players miss greens. If you understand that fact then it is easy to understand that what matters most to score is a player's chipping, pitching, bunker play skill.
I can guarantee you that whomever wins the Masters this week will consistently get the ball up and down when he has missed a green. And the same is true for the PGA Championship next month or the US Open in June or the July British Open. All very different courses but all requiring to win the tournament playing chips, pitches and bunker shots next to the hole.
I think we may be discussing two different subjects here. I replied to your statement that you were a "math nerd" who believed that there were "too many variables to make a valid mathematical analysis". And I wrote that missing greens is a constant, something literally every player does.Actually, you just added to the list of variables that have to be taken into account to evaluate which is harder driving or putting.
A player who misses the green on most approach shots and consistently chips it inside of a 3 foot circle may have the impression that putting is easier. But that is only because they are faced with easier putts then the player who consistently hits approach shots on the green but averages a proximity of 35 feet from the pin. The first and second player’s impression of which is harder is almost entirely divorced from their skill level. A classic example of what they feel not being real.
Not sure I’d agree. On a short, straight putt, or a mid length lag putt, I can usually tell right away when I put a poor stroke on the ball. And it’s every bit as disappointing as when I hit a drive that requires a punch out.This is true, but people do not realize it because a mishit putt is less obvious than a mishit tee shot.
My point is that the player and everybody in the group recognizes a sliced-into-the-trees tee shot, and the player is embarrassed.Not sure I’d agree. On a short, straight putt, or a mid length lag putt, I can usually tell right away when I put a poor stroke on the ball.
All I know is I've never taken a penalty stroke as a result of a putt.
I’d be interested in other’s experience, but in my experience this is generally true only when the other players in the group are also fairly poor putters.My point is that the player and everybody in the group recognizes a sliced-into-the-trees tee shot, and the player is embarrassed.
However a mishit 10 foot putt is typically ignored. The player knows he is not "supposed to make a 10 footer" so he is not ashamed. And the other players in the group think he may have misread the putt rather than mishit it.
At the end of the day most players seem to consider themselves a "decent putter" or a "respectable putter", only because all skill level players miss putts. But slicing tee shots into the woods or duffing 7-iron shots 30 yards short of the green screams "hacker" , so the player tends to feel bad those full shot misses while ignoring mishit putts.
If forced to bet, we'd all pretty much opt for the 10 foot putt vs a 130 yard ... or 30 yard shot too though right? Pros do everything better.You're playing against a pro. You're on a par 3 with a large green. It's 230 yds. You have a choice. You can play him on the green from 10', or from the tee box. I think this answers the question. You'll pick playing him on the green from 10'. You have a better chance of sinking that putt than you do landing on the green.
Right because putting is easier.I've seen hundreds of players shoot a low score because they made lots of putts. I've never seen a player shoot a low score because he drove the ball great.
I like that you brought this into the discussion, but here are my questions. Why a pro? Why a par 3? Why 230 yards? Why a 10 foot putt? These all seem arbitrary criteria and don’t even match the original question.You're playing against a pro. You're on a par 3 with a large green. It's 230 yds. You have a choice. You can play him on the green from 10', or from the tee box. I think this answers the question. You'll pick playing him on the green from 10'. You have a better chance of sinking that putt than you do landing on the green.
My point is that the player and everybody in the group recognizes a sliced-into-the-trees tee shot, and the player is embarrassed.
However a mishit 10 foot putt is typically ignored. The player knows he is not "supposed to make a 10 footer" so he is not ashamed. And the other players in the group think he may have misread the putt rather than mishit it.
At the end of the day most players seem to consider themselves a "decent putter" or a "respectable putter", only because all skill level players miss putts. But slicing tee shots into the woods or duffing 7-iron shots 30 yards short of the green screams "hacker" , so the player tends to feel bad those full shot misses while ignoring mishit putts.
I like that you brought this into the discussion, but here are my questions. Why a pro? Why a par 3? Why 230 yards? Why a 10 foot putt? These all seem arbitrary criteria and don’t even match the original question.
The question was not which is more difficult to achieve pro-level performance? In the scenario you describe the pro isn’t going to even have a driver in his hand. He’s going to probably have a 4 or 5-iron. Are you really measuring which skill is more difficult to master or just which scenario you are less likely to be embarrassed?
Even on my worst ball striking days I can still putt well. As a rule, my worst putt will be better than even my best chip.
But that low score also meant the player was not erratic (penal) nor poor enough to add strokes off the tee. Your forgetting that part. Low scores cant materialize unless tee shots are respectably in play and with respectable distance.I've seen hundreds of players shoot a low score because they made lots of putts. I've never seen a player shoot a low score because he drove the ball great.
the issue here is that when this is discussed we must relate it only to a same person. In this sense any given player will be better off if that same player is longer and more consistent off the tee then he she was prior. Just the same way an given person will be better if he becomes better at chips. pitches, putting, or irons and approaches, .....he will also be better player with better tee shots. Anyone who plays should know the better they are off tees the better they will play. Any part of ones game that gets better will lead to better playing vs prior.I understand some people like to believe if they hit longer drives they will have shorter clubs into greens and have shorter birdie putts etc... But that is nonsense theory.
The reality is that no matter how long or how straight a player drives the ball he will average missing 5 or 6 greens per round. It should be obvious to anyone who plays golf or watches golf that the most important factor to scoring average is whether the player is able to get the ball up and down when he misses a green.
It's not rocket science. When Tiger was in his prime playing a chip shot or pitch shot or bunker shot he hit it next to the hole and made the putt. This is how he made 142 cuts in a row, a sensational record of consistent low scoring.
Anybody thinking they need to hit the tee shot longer to shoot lower scores should first ask themselves if they hit their chips, pitches, bunker shots next to the hole.
but here again your comparing tour pros and also doing so vs each other where as its a given they are all consistently efficient at getting on or near enough greens within gir amount of strokes consistently. You think any player who has 2 penalty strokes as well as 4 more recovery strokes due to poor tee game is wining? And that would be an average and even better day for majority of us hackers out in the real world off the tees. bottom line is any player will be better if he improves at any part of the game including tees.I don't believed there are as many variable or complexities as you suggest. For example, one common factor is that all players miss greens. If you understand that fact then it is easy to understand that what matters most to score is a player's chipping, pitching, bunker play skill.
I can guarantee you that whomever wins the Masters this week will consistently get the ball up and down when he has missed a green.
My point is that no matter how good a player is from the tee boxes (or from the fairway playing approach shots) he will still miss greens. Every player misses greens, period.the issue here is that when this is discussed we must relate it only to a same person. In this sense any given player will be better off if that same player is longer and more consistent off the tee then he she was prior. Just the same way an given person will be better if he becomes better at chips. pitches, putting, or irons and approaches, .....he will also be better player with better tee shots. Anyone who plays should know the better they are off tees the better they will play. Any part of ones game that gets better will lead to better playing vs prior.
You mention pros. You know why short stuff becomes such a difference maker for pros? Its because they are among their peers where as they all are getting on or near greens in a regulation amount of strokes constantly. It is a given thier tee games are efficient enough and then so thats why the difference maker then can becomes the short and putting. Show me any pro who isnt getting on or near green in gir amount of strokes and you'll be showing me a person not on tour or who didnt make the cut.
We amateurs (most of us mid and higher cappers) usually have too many poorer and or outright failed tee shots.
I know for me as a mid/hihg cap (and many out there) we dont stand a chance of shooting sub 90 unless we are getting off the tees at least respectable enough majority of the time. Too many holes (from tee) causing any of possible dozen recovery or makeup shots or outright penal shots and its too much to overcome even if the putting and greenside game is good enough. The damage is already done as for scoring lower.
So imo you would be wrong. It would be factual that any player who gets better off tees (longer and or more consistent) will (just like any other area of play) be a better player because of it. It is not nonsense at all that if we consistently have a shorter approach into greens and also from more desirable lies and positioning it all will help us lower our scores.
what you said when referencing hitting shorter approaches leading to more birdie opportunities was this...."Its nonsense theory" and that couldnt be more untrue. .My point is that no matter how good a player is from the tee boxes (or from the fairway playing approach shots) he will still miss greens. Every player misses greens, period.
Tiger Woods in his prime missed 4 to 5 greens every round he played. Missing greens in regulation is the one part of the game shared by players of all skill levels.
So,Michaela Conlin. And for scoring what matters is that he leaves his chips-pitches-bunker shots near the hole for a 5 foot or less one putt.
That is some points I can agree with. The appearance of missing a 10 footer to the right side is much less noticeable (and more acceptable) thing in our minds than slicing one into the right woods. We may be disappointed we missed the 10 footer but we also know we got the second putt from (hopefully) much closer. But putting one into the woods is much more a noticeable offense and may very often be worth 2 strokes (due to stroke and distance) (not 1). But also it could result in more strokes than that because recovery shots (even smarter choice ones) can often now pose their own risks and compound the issue even further.My point is that the player and everybody in the group recognizes a sliced-into-the-trees tee shot, and the player is embarrassed.
However a mishit 10 foot putt is typically ignored. The player knows he is not "supposed to make a 10 footer" so he is not ashamed. And the other players in the group think he may have misread the putt rather than mishit it.
At the end of the day most players seem to consider themselves a "decent putter" or a "respectable putter", only because all skill level players miss putts. But slicing tee shots into the woods or duffing 7-iron shots 30 yards short of the green screams "hacker" , so the player tends to feel bad those full shot misses while ignoring mishit putts.