Arlo
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We are on a round planet within an infinitely expanding universe and no where is there a sign saying, This way UP.
Lag, or lack thereof.
I read this thread and I still don't know what you're trying to do. If you're trying to get that look like Sergio Garcia has at his near impact position, just forget it. Put it out of your mind. Those photos are from face on. They're two dimensional representations. He has a two plane swing and the downswing is very flat and gives an illusion in the face on photos that he's doing something physically impossible with his wrists. Your wrists have limited radial deviation - this is if you hold your hand out in front of you flat and turn it inward toward your thumb.
If you want more distance and better "lag" you need to get better tempo. There are tools on the market that can help you with this. One of them is the Lag Shot club. It's essentially an Orange Whip with a club head on the end instead of an orange ball. The advantage with this is that you can actually practice hitting balls with it instead of just taking a few swings with it between shots. The pro I take lessons from loves the Lag Shot because it teaches you 1) tempo; 2) timing; 3) clubhead delivery. The thing about swing training aids is that you have to use them when you practice, otherwise they don't work.
When you first start with this one you will hit everything to the right. When you start doing the natural pause at the top of the backswing, but not getting the wrists in the proper position at impact, you'll hit everything left. You'll make the proper adjustments. Don't fight it. It will teach you the Ben Hogan one-piece takeaway because you have to do it with the club otherwise you'll screw up your shot. It will teach you to be relaxed otherwise you screw up the shot. It will train you not to come over the top. But you have to practice with it for it to help you.
The club is a heavy club head attached to a very flexible shaft. I have the driver and wedge. I'd recommend the Driver and 7i set - they didn't have this set when I bought them. When I "lose my swing" I take out the Lag Shot Driver and use it at the range. It straightens me out in about 15 to 20 balls. And it's a work out because swinging a driver made like this isn't easy.
My driver SS is about 88 - 92 mph. I'm in the worst shape of my life. I'll be 69 next month. I hit a 215 yd drive. With a 29.5 degree, Game Improvement 7i, I get about 155 yds. carry if I just swing the club. If I try too hard, I lose distance.
If you want more distance and better "lag" you need to get better tempo. There are tools on the market that can help you with this. One of them is the Lag Shot club. It's essentially an Orange Whip with a club head on the end instead of an orange ball. The advantage with this is that you can actually practice hitting balls with it instead of just taking a few swings with it between shots. The pro I take lessons from loves the Lag Shot because it teaches you 1) tempo; 2) timing; 3) clubhead delivery. The thing about swing training aids is that you have to use them when you practice, otherwise they don't work.
When you first start with this one you will hit everything to the right. When you start doing the natural pause at the top of the backswing, but not getting the wrists in the proper position at impact, you'll hit everything left. You'll make the proper adjustments. Don't fight it. It will teach you the Ben Hogan one-piece takeaway because you have to do it with the club otherwise you'll screw up your shot. It will teach you to be relaxed otherwise you screw up the shot. It will train you not to come over the top. But you have to practice with it for it to help you.
The club is a heavy club head attached to a very flexible shaft. I have the driver and wedge. I'd recommend the Driver and 7i set - they didn't have this set when I bought them. When I "lose my swing" I take out the Lag Shot Driver and use it at the range. It straightens me out in about 15 to 20 balls. And it's a work out because swinging a driver made like this isn't easy.
My driver SS is about 88 - 92 mph. I'm in the worst shape of my life. I'll be 69 next month. I hit a 215 yd drive. With a 29.5 degree, Game Improvement 7i, I get about 155 yds. carry if I just swing the club. If I try too hard, I lose distance.
Arlo
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The length of our arms isnt going to change, but we can protract our left scapula. That can give 10-12 inches of more length(width) than the right.
To have an exchange of arcs(arc of right hand further from torso than left hand arc at address, EXCHANGE is in BS when protraction of left scapula
allows arc of left hand to be larger than arc of right hand.
To protract the left scapula, elevate the left shoulder about an inch at address. (keep right shoulder at rest)
Prove it to yourself by standing with arms extented in front , note distance from torso. Now elevate left shoulder only and extend arms in front again.
If done correctly, the protraced left scapula will allow left hand to extend up to 12 inches more than the right.
That is what you want in BS, to allow an exchange of arcs.
IMO - the only person the Orange Whip ever helped was the guy who invented it ! If you want to understand how to achieve and retain
* lag * you only need to hold a kitchen knife in the palm of your dominant hand and cock your wrist to the right* PALM FACING UPWARD* That knife should be at an approx. 90 degree angle to your dominant hand . The handle ( load ) is laying between the fulcrum of your thumb and forefinger which allows you to form this angles BC . This works this way for BOTH HANDS . You have now formed a lever exactly like you would with a golf shaft ,a baseball bat , tennis racquet , hammer , etc; etc ; etc—————————-!
Now pull / place your cocked DOMINANT RIGHT HAND back to the right as if making a golf swing - say two feet . If you shuttle that lever you have formed back and forth from in front of your body without that cocked wrist breaking down you have achieved and retained the same “”” LAG “”” that is necessary in a golf swing !!! Any pressure by our DOMINANT HAND ON THIS LEVER to attempt to create power is disastrous! Those wrist must remain cocked back during most of the DS until the centrifugal forces on the wrist becomes to powerful and must release . This is why our wrist must be * free - swinging hinges * . Our DOMINANT HAND must be trained to do so and it is a learned conscious task . That is why millions of players do exactly the opposite and throw , hit , release their lever from the top and lose their lag. It is the turning of the torso that squares the face, NOT THE HANDS ! They ONLY CONTROL the action.
You might consider cutting an old iron about two feet from the club face and put a grip on it . That is much better for you to sit around and use that the same way as the knife . Much easier to see the correct method to ACHEIVE LAG.
In other words, to state in a single sentence: "lag" is skipping a flat stone on water. And yes, the Orange Whip is only good for warming up before a round if you get there late and don't have time to hit balls - because you can't hit balls with it.
This video is for the Gforce golf club, but it does the exact same thing as the Lag Shot club except the shaft is white instead of blue. Chris Ryan does a good job of explaining how the thing works. Better than I can.
This video is for the Gforce golf club, but it does the exact same thing as the Lag Shot club except the shaft is white instead of blue. Chris Ryan does a good job of explaining how the thing works. Better than I can.
Arlo
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To skip a stone over water, the elbow is kept bent.. with no release of the arm.
This gimmick demands that "right arm straighten" in DS to impact. May help timing the release
or then again may just ruin your putting stroke, by grooving a roll over release.
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You straighten the arm in a sidearm throw, otherwise you have no power.
Arlo
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Skip a stone by rolling the right hand palm down...Dont think so.
Power comes from the kinematic sequence, with bent right arm(bicep contraction.. PULL)
OR as you say, a right arm straightening PUSH(Tricep contraction)
The right arm straightens after impact in the former, during DS in latter.
Key moves for one method dont work for the alternative method.
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Your technique of skipping a stone is different than the way I was shown by my brother.
InTheRough - here we go again - old Newtie and his THIRD LAW always gets on the way of these ideas . Have you ever considered how his Third Law come into play when the clubface comes into contact with the ball? It is called “ deceleration at impact “ !
Are you aware of or have any thoughts as to how ” excessively “ bending shaft react at impact ? Are you aware of how a flexible shaft affects ball flight direction?
Obviously, this players has a very smooth slow swing and great tempo , but wonder what his ball flight would be if he tried to go after it ?
Answer- everywhere except where he was aiming ? I suppose he needs the money he gets from selling these - AND - I love capitalism!!!! Suckers will buy them ! I see hundreds of these gimmicks at the PGA Show every year!
Arlo
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So called lag is really, an exchange of arcs. Bendy gadgets are more clickbait for golfers looking for quick fix
who dont take the time and effort
to understand human genetics and the golf swing.
Good luck @Hamfist I know you can do it!
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Hammie, do you play left handed? The reason I ask is that for a right handed player the right thumb should not play a part in your lag angle. [See picture below.] With a proper grip the right hand thumb should be at the side of the shaft at the top of the swing, not underneath. Am I missing something?
Hamfist
I promise not to murder Canadan.
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I do play right-handed, and my right thumb is the same as in the picture. It's just the limited amount of movement I have when moving the thumb backward toward the wrist causes the pain. To illustrate, if you hold up your right hand palm facing you, with fingers extended and the thumb in the "hitch hiker's position", you will see an angle of almost 90 degrees between your arm and your thumb. Mine is an angle of about 45 degrees. The long bone from the hand to the knuckle of the thumb is what has the "clump" of bone where it joins the hand.
That's why I was contemplating the Steve Stricker style of wrist set, since it has much less rearward movement of that digit.
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So I get what you are saying. Instructors describe Steve Stricker's wrist action as being "firm" resulting in a delayed wrist cock, but not necessarily reduced wrist cock. You do sometimes see the latter when he's at the top with an iron, but not with driver (see below). Now I'm just looking out for you. Will that work for you? Is your understanding of what Steve Stricker does different?
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
I always thought lag was a delay in movement. IMO a lot of the pros use the wrist movement to create more speed and maybe that appears as a slight delay, yet for most of us it tends to be hard to control. I had learned to develop that "lag" action or whatever you want to call it with my driver and increased speed quite a bit, however control then can become another issue to battle especially with the big stick.
Yesterday while playing a second 9 as a fun round I experimented more with the driver by cocking the wrist more and while swinging through also releasing the wrist at a greater speed/momentum. I hit two bombs and was lucky enough they were straight down the middle. I probably won't continue to hit like this because I notice that after a while my left wrist is hurting some from the force upon it unless I can build up some wrist strength. Just too dang old is all.
The three guys standing behind me made several comments along the lines of the lag I had (I had no clue really) and how fast my swing was. One guy used the word "violent" to describe the driver swing. I will admit I was letting it rip because it was a fun, non-conservative round so the extra wrist cock was ok. Again though for me I have to watch it as my control can be worse with that type of movement, but speed for my driver is nice (over 100+) for an old cuss like me.
Finally I don't think my thumb is on the side of the club as much as on the top. I don't pay much attention to it, but every time I try to keep my thumb to the side after a number of swings it seems to wind back up on the shaft again. It seems to promote better control and grip for me as my hands are not as strong as they used to be. I am not sure there is a right or wrong to the way the thumb sits at the club.
Wrist strength ??? if that was the secret why can LPGA players beat physically stronger men like me and others ? Why can they hit it farther and outplay most of us ? That makes ZERO sense !
Our HANDS and WRIST have very little power to propel any object very far . They are ONLY free - swinging hinges on the ends of our ARMS. Their ONLY purpose is to HINGE when their DOMINANT HANDS start pulling the shaft back to form a LEVER SYSTEM .
They are puppets / dummies who ONLY take INSTRUCTIONS from their boss - those 4 fingers and thumb attached to them .
Can you lay your WRIST on a table in a stationary position and drive a nail into a board either horizontally or vertically without moving your wrist from that stationary position ? Of course you can’t ! That is , unless you are a SUPERHUMAN !
Why is this so hard to understand?
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
This is not a surprising assertion coming from you to deny what I have presented, yet I would have thought you would have more knowledge in this area since you have constantly proclaimed superior knowledge when it comes to the golf swing.
The point is no matter what you believe does not make it the whole of truth concerning the golf swing and from your responses there is no room for any other facts to be considered. Let me ask you a simple Yes, or No question and please answer this. Does wrist strength make a difference in arm wrestling?
Staying on the topic of lag I am living proof that wrist movement and strength are important facts that can greatly affect the golf swing. In recent experimentation and demonstration in front of witnesses it was proven. I don't have strong wrist so for me I need additional strength for general wrist support if I were to continue the wrist movement.
How one uses that wrist strength and movement for swing improvement is another subject. If I were a younger man I could definitely develop this as a key addition to generating additional power and substantial speed in my swing. I was quite shocked that as a 66 year old I could increase swing speed substantially by adding simple wrist movement to my other swing speed work efforts.
In our test we found as much as 3+ mph average increase. Of course you will deny it, but for me the data and additional drive distances are proof. The wrist is not the only way to obtain this. It is just one way. One of the guys I had over two weeks ago while testing was astonished. He said the last time I saw you, you were only swinging in the low to mid 90s with the driver and now you are over 100. I reminded him how much work I have put into it in a number of areas.
One more side benefit of this wrist movement was that I can develop a higher swing speed with less overall effort in the back swing. Another important fact to be considered for an older guy. I am sure it is not for everyone as people are very different.
OK - Here is your answer - I was considered a very good arm wrestler when I was a young man. There were a few who could put me down , but that was mostly because I wear a size 15 ring . I have Neanderthal hands for a man only 5-10 tall so I could squeeze the strength out with my powerful grip - THAT HAS *** ABSOULUTELY
Luchnia
You will never conquer golf.
You must have been really strong!
Yes - I was and still am for an 82 old , but I have never been very flexible and that is why I never have or never will be a long hitter . That is something you are born with and their is only so much you can do to improve that !
Most of my playing friends can hit it 300 plus , but I don’t have their more flexible stretching muscles. Understanding that keeps me from being concerned about it . They can’t beat me , though!