Leaving the Flagstick In Study Interview

[rollin]

I also seem to recall during telecasts of the pros that commentators always seemed to make the statement that when these guys were chipping from just off the green, if the pin were pulled the guy was "trying to make it". I am not sure what that says.......or maybe my age is showing. :act-up:

well, that imo just goes to meaningless point that it was a more serious attempt at making it vs getting it close. But there was no proof anything was better as thats bees said for many years even before rthe pelz study.

 

[rollin]

The biggest problem with the Pelz study is I have never seen all the data, only summaries of the data. I can't understand the data if I can't see it. The experiment done by Mase gives us all the data. He also said in the interview that it was very easy to reproduce with similar results. I have an engineering background and the Mase study is very compelling for me and supports what I've seen over 40 years of playing golf. Over the years I've seen thousands of putts go in the hole traveling fast enough to go 10+ feet past the hole. I've also seen hundreds of chip shots bounce off the flag and not go in that were traveling at a speed that would have them come to rest less than 10 feet past the hole had they not hit the flag. Maybe others don't have as many data points as I do, but to me it's obvious that having a flagstick in the way on a chip or putt can increase the chance of a bounce out when you're not hitting the center of the flagstick, which is most of the time.

But even mase is telling us that when past the 4.5 foot mark (and certainly much longer like the 10ft you describe) that the pin being in helps more than hurts. Even he says that is the case. It seems to me its very possible your recalling/remembering certain putts/chips but not remembering them all of course as that would be basically impossible to do. human nature often has us remembering more what didint work than what did or the ocassional rare abnormal stuff. . We are simply not going to know nor recall how often a flag stick helped us stay in the hole because there i nothing to stand out for us to remember. We are far more likely going to recall the ones that dont make it. The pin itself by default will fall victim to blame much more than it would get credit for helping. Thats just the nature of that beast. The pins "job" (for a funny but lack of a better term) would always be a thankless one. No thanks given when it goes right but blame given when it goes wrong. that would hold true even if it was universally agreed that it helps more than hurts. wew ould still pl;ace blame on it for the missed ones and send no thanks for the made ones it helped.

 

[McRock]

At my course, the cup usually isn't cut straight, or deep enough, so the flag always leans one direction or another. So until that gets fixed, I'll be pulling the pin all year long.

~Rock

 

[tahoebum]

But even mase is telling us that when past the 4.5 foot mark (and certainly much longer like the 10ft you describe) that the pin being in helps more than hurts. Even he says that is the case. It seems to me its very possible your recalling/remembering certain putts/chips but not remembering them all of course as that would be basically impossible to do. human nature often has us remembering more what didint work than what did or the ocassional rare abnormal stuff. . We are simply not going to know nor recall how often a flag stick helped us stay in the hole because there i nothing to stand out for us to remember. We are far more likely

He says just the opposite. Remember that almost three times as many putts hit the flag off center as hit it dead on. His study concludes that those 72% putts are twice as likely to miss with the flagstick in. It also states that very rarely do putts hit center flagstick in a situation(traveling at a speed 10 feet past the hole) where the flagstick in will help. From the article:

"As Prof. Mase’s data and study establish, it is much more likely that a putt would be striking the flagstick off-center as opposed to dead on. According to our probability calculations above, putts that contact the flagstick off-center with a glancing blow occur almost three times more often (72 percent vs. 28 percent). So does the flagstick help in these situations? Once again, the answer is an overwhelming “No.” "

Also, my memory over the years is very clear - I've watched lots of very fast putts go in without a flagstick and chips bouncing off the flagstick traveling at a similar speed. I tend to barely miss a lot of greens and as such have a lot of makeable chips. I've played 10 rounds this year and have had 3 chip-ins and holed one from 99 yards. I've also seen over the years at least a half a dozen potential hole in ones bounce off the flagstick and finish less than a foot from the hole. In the last two weeks, I've seen one putt hit center hole(might have been a half inch off center) and bounce out but it was traveling at a speed that would have carried it 25 feet past the hole. I've seen two putts and a chip bounce off the flag and finish very close to the hole, they certainly might have had a chance had the flag been pulled as none of them would have finished more than 4 feet from the hole without hitting the flagstick. Your claim that my memory is bad to support your point of view is a weak argument.

 

[Badger_Golfer]

IMO, this study is pretty moot because if a ball is rolling fast enough to ricochet off the flagstick and not go in the hole, its not going to go in if theres no flagstick anyways.
I personally like flagstick in for pace of play reasons. Its just one less thing for people to dink around with and waste time.

 

[tahoebum]

Z

IMO, this study is pretty moot because if a ball is rolling fast enough to ricochet off the flagstick and not go in the hole, its not going to go in if theres no flagstick anyways.
I personally like flagstick in for pace of play reasons. Its just one less thing for people to dink around with and waste time.

Quite the contrary. Look at his data - set at a speed to roll past the hole 4.5 feet, 89% of the putts went in with the flag out and 45% went in when the flagstick was left in. People don't like this data if it doesn't agree with their opinion, but IMO he had no agenda and his experiment meets the standard for the scientific method. As he said in the interview he has been able to reproduce the experiment with similar results.

 

[rollin]

He says just the opposite. Remember that almost three times as many putts hit the flag off center as hit it dead on. His study concludes that those 72% putts are twice as likely to miss with the flagstick in. It also states that very rarely do putts hit center flagstick in a situation(traveling at a speed 10 feet past the hole) where the flagstick in will help. From the article:

"As Prof. Mase’s data and study establish, it is much more likely that a putt would be striking the flagstick off-center as opposed to dead on. According to our probability calculations above, putts that contact the flagstick off-center with a glancing blow occur almost three times more often (72 percent vs. 28 percent). So does the flagstick help in these situations? Once again, the answer is an overwhelming “No.” "

Also, my memory over the years is very clear - I've watched lots of very fast putts go in without a flagstick and chips bouncing off the flagstick traveling at a similar speed. I tend to barely miss a lot of greens and as such have a lot of makeable chips. I've played 10 rounds this year and have had 3 chip-ins and holed one from 99 yards. I've also seen over the years at least a half a dozen potential hole in ones bounce off the flagstick and finish less than a foot from the hole. In the last two weeks, I've seen one putt hit center hole(might have been a half inch off center) and bounce out but it was traveling at a speed that would have carried it 25 feet past the hole. I've seen two putts and a chip bounce off the flag and finish very close to the hole, they certainly might have had a chance had the flag been pulled as none of them would have finished more than 4 feet from the hole without hitting the flagstick. Your claim that my memory is bad to support your point of view is a weak argument.

I didn't suggest you have a bad memory. It would imo be almost impossible to think we recall most putts probably in the tens of thousands especially cionsidering we don't oplay alone and are watching the putts of others. That wasn't suggesting you have a bad memory but only that your only human.

Just because we don't hit dead center all too often does not at all mean most those putts actually end up at the one angle he chose and also at the same speed he used. Roll those same speed putts at every angle apart from dead center, not just the one he used and then see what happens and then change speeds and se what happens. If you believe without doubt that all your non dead center putts will be hitting the pin at the same place with that same speed or less then go right ahead and sink them all without the pin. I think our "other than dead center putts" will be most anywhere else and not mostly at that one angle and speed.

Not at all trying to be mean in any way but we are debating so forgive me if some of this sounds a bit much fwiw....
And so you know for a fact exactly what any of the putts you mention would have done if the flag wasn't there? You (at one point) mentioned to me that the pelz study needed data and as an engineer you can well see what mase did , yet you can claim to me what would have happened to some putts if the flag was out? That's about as accurate an opinion as any of us saying "if I didn't catch that tree branch... that was a perfect shot". truth is Ive said that myself plenty but we really couldn't know for sure. And you also know for a fact that with the flag in there were never any putts which were helped by the flag? I mean somehow you know of putts/chips that the flag hurt but you know of none that it helped? Ok, I guess.

As i said to another, Ill just have to agree that we disagree. And I think a bit too much is being made it honestly. i dont think its at all the game changer some think it is. i dont think its even close to being a game changer. i think either way its so very minor at best that it isnt really going to matter nearly as much as anyone thinks. I feel its just simply a great convenience to be able to leave the pin alone and not deal with it than it ever is any great positive or negative.

 

[rollin]

Z

Quite the contrary. Look at his data - set at a speed to roll past the hole 4.5 feet, 89% of the putts went in with the flag out and 45% went in when the flagstick was left in. People don't like this data if it doesn't agree with their opinion, but IMO he had no agenda and his experiment meets the standard for the scientific method. As he said in the interview he has been able to reproduce the experiment with similar results.

For me....I have no issue with the data but i do take some issue that this is the one specific place on the pin that most of our "non" dead center strikes will hit and will also be at that speed. Im a die in the hole type of putter and so for me, I most often am not to reach the 4.5 mark. I will likey end up short of the hole more often than i would reach the 4.5 mark past it. On the occasions i am too long its usually because Im way off and too far long in my speed judgment. So most my balls will be shorter than the 4.5 and of the ones that are not they will mostly be much longer due to the far misjudgment of speed. Ill even miss left and right far more than i will be longer than a couple feet past. So most my putting (due to being much more of a die it in type of player) is not usually bouncing off the pins with much force at all. of course we are all different i understand.