Modified Stack N Tilt?

[Carolina Golfer]

My biggest swing faults are not getting my weight to the target side at impact and an overswing in the backswing. Today, I put my weight forward, and it automatically shortened my backswing and with the weight forward pre-set, it solved the problem of not getting my weight forward. I was flushing it in practice. Hopefully, I am on to something and it was not an aha moment that lasts for one time. Once, I am pre-set, I just pull through with my left hand (rightie). Anyone else try a modified stack and tilt? Is it hard to make it work for a driver? Do you just put less weight forward?

 

[WILDTHING]

My biggest swing faults are not getting my weight to the target side at impact and an overswing in the backswing. Today, I put my weight forward, and it automatically shortened my backswing and with the weight forward pre-set, it solved the problem of not getting my weight forward. I was flushing it in practice. Hopefully, I am on to something and it was not an aha moment that lasts for one time. Once, I am pre-set, I just pull through with my left hand (rightie). Anyone else try a modified stack and tilt? Is it hard to make it work for a driver? Do you just put less weight forward?

There are modifications to SnT and I think Sean Foley brought out some videos. On the other hand there is a technique that was advocated by VJ Trolio (see video below).



I think in the modified versions there is less pressure loading of the lead leg at the top of the backswing and less extension of the 'thoracic' section of the spine. If you look at the 2nd image below , an SnT swing (image D- as I perceive its definition at the top of the backswing) would require a lot of extension at the top of the backswing compared to a conventional golf swing .


In SnT , it would be image D below that one was trying to replicate which , as I said above, would require a lot 'thoracic' extension. So a modified version would be less weight pressure on the lead leg and less thoracic extension (maybe C).




I'm unsure why your backswing should be shortened unless you are somehow allowing your lead arm to be connected to your upper torso .

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I agree with the above....why would you shorten the backswing? The idea of S&T is to increase the backswing. My LPGA pro said I need to use my shoulders during the backswing (vs. arms) and get my hands above my head....not way above....just slightly. Her other advice was to "pause" at the top...then swing to stop my arm-swing legacy trait.

As I said on another thread, I proceeded to rip a drive 295 when my "typical" long drive was 245-250. This was during a playing lesson. We all tend to rush our shots...even pro's...and in doing so the arms take over....her words...not mine. Oh...BTW...that drive was with a G20 Driver with a regular stock shaft.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Just one more thing for the S&T guys. If you are used to transferring weight to the right side on the backswing....stop. I say this from much experience and immense trial and error. My "old" swing wants to creep in ALL THE TIME. Old swing meaning transferring weight to the right side. That defeats the whole purpose of S&T....at least for me.

 

[WILDTHING]

Just one more thing for the S&T guys. If you are used to transferring weight to the right side on the backswing....stop. I say this from much experience and immense trial and error. My "old" swing wants to creep in ALL THE TIME. Old swing meaning transferring weight to the right side. That defeats the whole purpose of S&T....at least for me.

Do you have any videos of your before and after swings posted somewhere in the forum? It would be interesting to see the changes in your swing biomechanics.

 

[AnthonyC]

I have full range sessions with S&T that serve as a drill for my regular swing, which is not S&T. I know.... my swing is an anomaly haha.

 

[AnthonyC]

and i just went down the rabbit hole on youtube with S&T videos.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Do you have any videos of your before and after swings posted somewhere in the forum? It would be interesting to see the changes in your swing biomechanics.

I don't have before and after videos...I deleted all my old swing videos because that swing was no longer being pursued. The major differences are:

Weight more on my left side with a more rotational backswing, meaning my left shoulder rotates "straight down" on the takeaway vs. the easy potential to slightly flatten the shoulders in the traditional backswing with a steeper plane to get the club "over the shoulder at the top". That move helps me become stacked over the ball at the top with a straight right leg. The backswing plane is more like Sergio's, or somewhat flatter vs. upright.....and my belt buckle, on good swings ends up closest to the target post-impact. My primary drill is the one provided by Rob Cheney below. I do the drills by progressing from 1/2 swing, 50-yard shots, up to full swings using an 8 or 9 iron. I can use any club but my 8-9 iron are now the most used clubs for approach shots on the course because now my drives are in the 250-265 range vs. devolving 210-220 yards with my old swing.

The major difference is feeling tilted towards the target at the top of my swing, and not caring if my right leg straightens because I actually get more rotation, hence power. During mirror work, it's quite astonishing to see I am simply stacked over the ball at the top, not tilted to the left, but I FEEL tilted to the left because I'm used to decades of moving off the ball to the right on the backswing. To that extent, I have no doubt that I likely moved off the ball too much to the right (to get "more power") which is why S&T feels like I'm tilted to the left at the top. I look nearly identical to Tiger in terms of how I look at the top of my backswing (ref article below). So I find it interesting that some treat S&T as being some sort of golf swing voodoo....sorcery.

Tiger Woods' iron game, explained (in detail, in his own words)

A thought-by-thought breakdown of how Tiger Woods approaches his iron game

www.golfdigest.com

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

and i just went down the rabbit hole on youtube with S&T videos.

The rabbit hole for me was the millions of swing videos that don't teach S&T.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I have full range sessions with S&T that serve as a drill for my regular swing, which is not S&T. I know.... my swing is an anomaly haha.

You're probably doing punch shot drills with S&T then progressing to moving to the right side on the backswing during full swings. I cannot marry the two because the bottom of my swing arc becomes variable. Actually, my swing feels like full swing punch shots now, but I can get far more height if I want more height.

 

[Desmond]

How about this as a suggestion - it's what I do - as you are getting to the top of your backswing, get on your front foot and sequence. The club is the last thing you attempt to move.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

There are modifications to SnT and I think Sean Foley brought out some videos. On the other hand there is a technique that was advocated by VJ Trolio (see video below).



I think in the modified versions there is less pressure loading of the lead leg at the top of the backswing and less extension of the 'thoracic' section of the spine. If you look at the 2nd image below , an SnT swing (image D- as I perceive its definition at the top of the backswing) would require a lot of extension at the top of the backswing compared to a conventional golf swing .

View attachment 9001762
In SnT , it would be image D below that one was trying to replicate which , as I said above, would require a lot 'thoracic' extension. So a modified version would be less weight pressure on the lead leg and less thoracic extension (maybe C).

View attachment 9001763


I'm unsure why your backswing should be shortened unless you are somehow allowing your lead arm to be connected to your upper torso .

The extension in D is achieved via rotation of the hips. The shoulders are yet only turned 45 degrees to the hips. That's what generates the power for me. I think I'm more C than D though. IMO C is enough but....but....the danger of C is it can lead to B if not careful if someone (like me) looked more like B for many years. Between C and B is where I get into trouble.

 

[U_of_Bucky]

I use your techique of S&T modified again. I make a larger hip turn on the backside. Think Johnny Miller, Brooke Henderson to visualize. My shoulders are not as flexible as the examples. (68 y.o). Closed stance with the open rear foot to help the larger backside turn.

 

[Jrt13]

How about this as a suggestion - it's what I do - as you are getting to the top of your backswing, get on your front foot and sequence. The club is the last thing you attempt to move.

This^^^

I think a lot of players get quick from the top, rushing the downswing with the top half of the body..... IMO, the action should be similar to skipping a rock, throwing a ball, or even bowling. It feels funny and very weak to try these actions with just the upper body. Keep the swing loose...rotate back-centered over the ball, then step and throw.

For me, as I near the top of my back swing, it’s to “step on something imaginary with my left heel”(allowing the center of my body to move slightly forward and pushing my left hip out of the way) followed by- skipping a rock (or throwing the club) down the fairway... not at the ball.

The key is to make the moves in tempo. Don’t rush it.

That’s what helps me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

This^^^

I think a lot of players get quick from the top, rushing the downswing with the top half of the body..... IMO, the action should be similar to skipping a rock, throwing a ball, or even bowling. It feels funny and very weak to try these actions with just the upper body. Keep the swing loose...rotate back-centered over the ball, then step and throw.

For me, as I near the top of my back swing, it’s to “step on something imaginary with my left heel”(allowing the center of my body to move slightly forward and pushing my left hip out of the way) followed by- skipping a rock (or throwing the club) down the fairway... not at the ball.

The key is to make the moves in tempo. Don’t rush it.

That’s what helps me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly.

 

[WILDTHING]

I think SnT is probably okay for people with flexible spines.

If you look at the image below , the pelvic slide means that one is attempting 'right side flexion' in the lumbar joint area of the spine.



But note that the lumbar spine facet joints are not designed for side to side flexion which is why I said you need that type of flexibility to reduce any excessive stress in those joint areas.

If you check this short 3 min video below , you can see the 3 types of facet joints in the cervical/thoracic/lumbar regions of the spine and get a good idea of how they can limit movement .

The cervical facet joints allow lots of rotation
The thoracic facet joints are like shingles on a roof and allow limited lateral side flexion (but more than lumbar) , extension and flexion, but very limited rotation.
The lumbar facet joints really only allow extension and flexion (very limited lateral) therefore doing the above pelvic slide to any excessive degree is an unnatural movement for inflexible golfers.

PS. Actually the golf swing is an unnatural movement for me full stop (my spine is like a wooden plank and when I try and touch my toes my fingers are 2 feet away)

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

I think SnT is probably okay for people with flexible spines.

If you look at the image below , the pelvic slide means that one is attempting 'right side flexion' in the lumbar joint area of the spine.

View attachment 9001908

But note that the lumbar spine facet joints are not designed for side to side flexion which is why I said you need that type of flexibility to reduce any excessive stress in those joint areas.

If you check this short 3 min video below , you can see the 3 types of facet joints in the cervical/thoracic/lumbar regions of the spine and get a good idea of how they can limit movement .

The cervical facet joints allow lots of rotation
The thoracic facet joints are like shingles on a roof and allow limited lateral side flexion (but more than lumbar) , extension and flexion, but very limited rotation.
The lumbar facet joints really only allow extension and flexion (very limited lateral) therefore doing the above pelvic slide to any excessive degree is an unnatural movement for inflexible golfers.

PS. Actually the golf swing is an unnatural movement for me full stop (my spine is like a wooden plank and when I try and touch my toes my fingers are 2 feet away)

Possibly, but my spine is far less flexible if I'm turning into my right knee on the backswing vs. letting my right knee straighten.

 

[WILDTHING]

Possibly, but my spine is far less flexible if I'm turning into my right knee on the backswing vs. letting my right knee straighten.

I think the right leg straightening in the backswing is just pushing the hip joint more 'back/targetwards/up' . At the same time , the left leg will bend more to allow the left hip to move towards the ball-target line. Overall it will allow your pelvis to rotate more in space rather than attempting to rotate the lumbar spine (which can't anyhow)

In the conventional golf swing , one can always increase your degree of pelvis rotation by allowing the left heel to rise aka Bobby Jones. If you look at the image below , his upper swing centre hasn't moved much in the downswing but he shifted weight pressure onto his right leg , then simultaneously 'shift/rotated' his pelvis during the downswing so that the weight pressure progressively moved into his left leg. He was able to increase the distance his hands moved in the backswing allowing him to apply more force on the handle of the club over a longer distance (ie. linear work done on the club means more transfer of energy and greater clubhead speed). I can do what Bobby Jones does with little stress on my lumbar spine but if I get my kinematic sequence wrong , my strikes could be truly terrible.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Jones is (was) stacked to almost leaning towards the target at the top. His butt has moved towards the target at the top too. This is very similar to Hogan's swing.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

 

[WILDTHING]

Here is Ben Hogan's famous video but it looks to me as if he has increasing weight pressure on his trail leg from address to top of backswing. His right hip rotates and stabilises at the top of the backswing, then he re-rotates from P4-P5 with a simultaneous shift/rotate around his initial weight pressured right hip but which gradually shifts to his left leg for the next downswing phase from P5-P7. For the rest of the downswing (ie. from P5-P7) he is using hip flexor muscles for the 'Sam Snead Squat' and leg muscles to push and pull in the hip sockets to rotate the pelvis. This includes an extension of the increasingly weight pressured left leg and extension of the decreasingly weight pressured right leg. These leg muscle contractions will cause his left foot to push on the ground towards the ball-target line , while the right leg will try to push the foot on the ground away from the ball-target line. Obviously the latter leg extensions will also force the head of the femurs to push in the hip sockets and cause the pelvis to rotate.

 

[Desmond]

Jones is (was) stacked to almost leaning towards the target at the top. His butt has moved towards the target at the top too. This is very similar to Hogan's swing.

But Jones clearly has his weight on the rear foot at the top as does Hogan.

Look at George Gankas and the way he gets his students to the top and their weight. It's all interesting but I pay another guy and do what he says.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

But Jones clearly has his weight on the rear foot at the top as does Hogan.

Look at George Gankas and the way he gets his students to the top and their weight. It's all interesting but I pay another guy and do what he says.

Hogan's weight is on his left leg at the top by nature of his left knee bend. Also, his butt shifted towards the target at the top which pre-positioned his lower body to be ahead of his upper body. Hogan talked about a right-side shift but he transferred his weight to his left side at the top.

 

[Desmond]

Hogan's weight is on his left leg at the top by nature of his left knee bend. Also, his butt shifted towards the target at the top which pre-positioned his lower body to be ahead of his upper body. Hogan talked about a right-side shift but he transferred his weight to his left side at the top.

Sounds like Gankas. I watched a lot of his videos a few years ago. Like anything else, an in-person lesson always works better. It's all a balance.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Sounds like Gankas. I watched a lot of his videos a few years ago. Like anything else, an in-person lesson always works better. It's all a balance.

I just received Kingdom magazine that shows Dustin Johnson at the top of his backswing on the cover. His right leg is nearly straight and his left knee obviously is carrying a majority of the weight. Classic S&T.