My experiment is over

[InTheRough]

I've played 2 rounds in a row from the white tees at 6300 yds., and while I have had stretches where I can keep up with the guys on the scorecard, it's really hard. I play my best from them when I take the attitude: "there's no way I can reach this green in reg., so the smart thing to do is to lay up in a spot at a distance where I'm hitting my most comfortable wedge shot and hope I can get an up and down." When I play that way, I've gone stretches of four holes at 1 over.... because I know the course and I know how to putt. I've even gotten one birdie on a 359 yd par 4.

But to lower scores with a system of 6 GIRs to give a chance at par or birdie, 6 up and downs, and allow myself 6 DBs means I need to hit GIR on all par 3s + 2 par 4s OR 1 shorter par 4 and one par 5. It also puts a hella stress on my wedge game getting it close from 40 yds. - I'm good with my wedges, but not that good - not good enough to stick it to within 6 feet from that distance. 6 double bogeys is no problem.

One thing that's improved is I've learned not to miss short. I've learned to be pin high or on the green long, the latter not always being a good thing.

But now I've got to go back to the driving range and work out this hook I've developed. That will happen then the temperature drops back down to a cool 90 degrees late next week. We're going to get slammed in the broiler with 100 on Saturday, 107 and 108 Sunday and Monday. 94 on Tuesday should feel cool. Thursday will be 90. Fun times.

 

[BigMac]

It sounds like you're holding your own pretty well from the white tees, but it makes perfect sense to play the tees you enjoy most and have the best chance at scoring well. It also sounds like you're playing a solid strategy. But I agree, it's not as fun for me if I have to hit fairway woods into every green and don't have a good look at birdie all day long.

 

[Oldflgolfer]

Donald Ross says the short miss is just fine

 

[WLG1952]

Same issues in my game. I can reach all the par 3s, and most 5s GIRs, but longer par 4s are a lay up, and 1 putt, hopefully for par. Of course the above doesn't always go that way, but it's my playing plan, and I stick to it.

 

[Chef23]

Donald Ross says the short miss is just fine

I have had some rounds recently on courses where the short miss is good where I hit 6 greens and still shot mid 70s. If a green is challenging it is about picking the right spots to miss and give yourself the best chance to get up and down.

 

[Snickerdog]

You tried, you obviously played well, but no reason to make the game harder where you can't enjoy it as much.

 

[Hamfist]

You could always mix them during a round. Play the forwards when you want, and the whites when you see a hole you think you can make a score.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

Having seen you hit the ball, I know you know how to get it out there so you shouldn't feel like you have anything to prove. I'm a little longer than you (or at least was last time we played together) and once the course gets above 6300yds for me it starts to feel a little long, and at 6500+ it's definitely becoming noticeable that I'm hitting a lot of long approaches. I would think something around 6000yds would be much more comfortable for you - and you could always play combo tees to achieve that. Certainly lots of courses that make the jump from a 5700yd tee to a 6400yd tee when something in the middle would be best.

 

[Daddio]

Good experiment. I've moved all the way back a few times just to strategize how I might have to handle some holes when I'm overmatched by their new distance. But it's just experimentation and I enjoy golf more if I'm playing it shorter.

BTW you did amazing @InTheRough. It's been awhile for me but if the courses in Tacoma still play like they used to 6300 is very very long. No roll, rough so much thicker than rough should ever be, tall trees that mere mortals can't hit over etc... And as a lady to boot!?! 6300 is about what the LPGA plays most weeks. Only played with a few ladies ever who played that length and they either had tour experience or at a minimum played D1 golf in college.

 

[InTheRough]

Having seen you hit the ball, I know you know how to get it out there so you shouldn't feel like you have anything to prove. I'm a little longer than you (or at least was last time we played together) and once the course gets above 6300yds for me it starts to feel a little long, and at 6500+ it's definitely becoming noticeable that I'm hitting a lot of long approaches. I would think something around 6000yds would be much more comfortable for you - and you could always play combo tees to achieve that. Certainly lots of courses that make the jump from a 5700yd tee to a 6400yd tee when something in the middle would be best.

I think I was 62 when we played. Yes, I'd just bought that Big Bertha. I have lost a few yards. The old grey mare she ain't what she used to be. I'm 68 now and those years + 30 lbs do make a difference.

I think splitting the course between the forward and the whites would be the best idea - they do have a combo. The forward tees are 5600, the whites are 6300, the combo tees are 5850. I think I'll play the combos next time. It's just too hard to see what I'm supposed to do. I'll go to the pro shop and grab a few scorecards and black out where I don't play (because pencil doesn't write well on highlighter).

What I've learned:
1) 380 yds is the longest par 4 I have a shot at hitting in reg. That leaves me a good 7i on the approach if I hit a decent drive. Anything longer than that is a crap shoot.
2) 170 yd par 3 is the longest I can hit in regulation.
3) 510 yds is the longest par 5 I would want to play because it will leave me with a 75 yd wedge shot if I do everything right. If I don't, I still have a chance. 550 is the absolute longest I'd ever want to play.

I know I'm way too long to play the very forward tees, but I can play the senior tees because I'm over 65 without anyone complaining.

 

[*Range Rat]

I did my own experiment, but the opposite. Out of curiosity i moved way up to 5715 yds which is where the PGA of America/USGA says i should be playing because my avg driving distance is a furlong (that's 220 yds). The course length i normally play is between 6300-6500 yds and i avg scoring low to mid 80s (82-86) which i'm fine with because the course offers just the right challenge i'm looking for - Golf isn't supposed to be easy, its challenging & fun. Every round is 18 little battles, how many can i win?
So moving up 700 yds i'm getting around a 40 yd boost on avg every hole. This showed up the biggest on the par 3's where my normal 150, 162, 173, 148 turned into 113, 131, 140, 117 on the forward tees. Hitting short irons on all the par 3's is nice i guess but it left me wanting more - where's the challenge? Approach shots on the par 4's were also much shorter obviously. I had wedge, 9i, or 8i approaches on 7 of the 10 par 4's which also seemed really easy. If not for an unusually poor putting day (two 3 putts, 3 others caught the edge but didn't fall, and one horseshoe that came back at me) i should have made about 4 birdies (my avg the past several years is 0.7 birdies per round for reference, i literally never make birdies).
I ended up shooting 76 (about 8 shots below avg), and I hit 2.5 times more GIR than normal (because of the short iron approaches). But i felt like most of the challenge was taken away, i really felt no sense of accomplishment after the round even though this was only the 5th time since 2008 that i've broken 80. Don't get me wrong, i did enjoy the day. Hitting from places in the fairway that i never see was fun and having bunkers in play off the tee which are normally out of reach made me question club selection a few times. Overall however, i'll happily move back to the white tees and continue fighting my battles from 6400 yds.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

I think I was 62 when we played. Yes, I'd just bought that Big Bertha. I have lost a few yards. The old grey mare she ain't what she used to be. I'm 68 now and those years + 30 lbs do make a difference.

I think splitting the course between the forward and the whites would be the best idea - they do have a combo. The forward tees are 5600, the whites are 6300, the combo tees are 5850. I think I'll play the combos next time. It's just too hard to see what I'm supposed to do. I'll go to the pro shop and grab a few scorecards and black out where I don't play (because pencil doesn't write well on highlighter).

What I've learned:
1) 380 yds is the longest par 4 I have a shot at hitting in reg. That leaves me a good 7i on the approach if I hit a decent drive. Anything longer than that is a crap shoot.
2) 170 yd par 3 is the longest I can hit in regulation.
3) 510 yds is the longest par 5 I would want to play because it will leave me with a 75 yd wedge shot if I do everything right. If I don't, I still have a chance. 550 is the absolute longest I'd ever want to play.

I know I'm way too long to play the very forward tees, but I can play the senior tees because I'm over 65 without anyone complaining.

Sounds like you're still moving the ball well though if you're surviving at 6300yds!

The combo tees sound perfect for you! I really like when tracks incorporate those. Three Home Course had them I believe, and they were perfect for me at right around 6300 if memory serves.

 

[Et Tu Brute?]

At my club, including among the groups I often play with, there used to be all sorts of stigmas associated with what tees you played.

a) If you were under 65 or 70 years old, it wouldn't be fair to use the under-6,000 yard tees.

b) If you were a high handicapper (say anything over 7-8) you'd be an idiot to play the over-6,500 yard tees.

c) If you were a low handicapper you'd be cheating to move up to the 6,200 yard tees.

I mean it was nuts. Short hitting 50 year old? Just man up and forget about hitting greens. Long-hitting 12 HCP? Just play the 6,200 tees and tee off with an iron. Just the sort of received wisdom passed down from generation to generation I guess, every tee marker was there for a specific age/sex/hanciap. Every golfer had one "correct" tee and was either trying to gain an unfair advantage playing up or was on an ego trip playing back.

I don't know what changed but for the past few years everyone I know has found their comfort zone and has a set of tees they play purely because it's where they have the most fun. Guess we all just wised up. And in most cases it's people playing shorter tee than their age/sex/handicap would have specified a decade or two ago.

Our course has plenty of challenges around the greens. So it isn't like you need a really challenging tee shot or approaches hit with hybrids and fairway woods to feel like your game is getting a good test. I could "easily" move back one set of tees and still enjoy my round. Score would be a lot higher but the handicap system takes care of that so in net terms it would all work out. And in fact I play a round once in a while from farther back just for variety (I play the same course 140+ times a year). But it's nice to be able to choose without violating some social norm.

 

[Acesteve]

my local muni has eliminated the colors and gone to numbers. It recommends different numbers based on average driver length. The groups I play in where the guys actually consider what they really hit on average off the tee have benefited in enjoyment.

 

[InTheRough]

I did my own experiment, but the opposite. Out of curiosity i moved way up to 5715 yds which is where the PGA of America/USGA says i should be playing because my avg driving distance is a furlong (that's 220 yds). The course length i normally play is between 6300-6500 yds and i avg scoring low to mid 80s (82-86) which i'm fine with because the course offers just the right challenge i'm looking for - Golf isn't supposed to be easy, its challenging & fun. Every round is 18 little battles, how many can i win?
So moving up 700 yds i'm getting around a 40 yd boost on avg every hole. This showed up the biggest on the par 3's where my normal 150, 162, 173, 148 turned into 113, 131, 140, 117 on the forward tees. Hitting short irons on all the par 3's is nice i guess but it left me wanting more - where's the challenge? Approach shots on the par 4's were also much shorter obviously. I had wedge, 9i, or 8i approaches on 7 of the 10 par 4's which also seemed really easy. If not for an unusually poor putting day (two 3 putts, 3 others caught the edge but didn't fall, and one horseshoe that came back at me) i should have made about 4 birdies (my avg the past several years is 0.7 birdies per round for reference, i literally never make birdies).
I ended up shooting 76 (about 8 shots below avg), and I hit 2.5 times more GIR than normal (because of the short iron approaches). But i felt like most of the challenge was taken away, i really felt no sense of accomplishment after the round even though this was only the 5th time since 2008 that i've broken 80. Don't get me wrong, i did enjoy the day. Hitting from places in the fairway that i never see was fun and having bunkers in play off the tee which are normally out of reach made me question club selection a few times. Overall however, i'll happily move back to the white tees and continue fighting my battles from 6400 yds.

So you shoot about 83 on a course rated 72/113 if the handicap you list at 11 is true.

That's not the length of tees, that's your Golf Club's fault. At one local course two of the par 3s from the "ladies tees" at 5200 yds are 165 yds., one is 147, and the other is 110. Half the women are hitting 3W or Driver on two of those holes. Most don't make it to the green because you have to carry that distance. I think that's ridiculous. The Senior tees at 5600 are 175 on those holes. The white "men's" tees are 195 (the blue tees are 205), 185, 175, 155. They keep wondering why there's a backup on the 2nd hole. It's too long for most people. These are not big greens.

When I hit a good drive, I don't mind hitting an 8i or 9i into a green on some par 4s. Sometimes it's a 7i. But I'm not getting 6 GIRs from 6300 - that's only 33%. I got 3. That's 16%. The best I've done from 5600 is 43%. I don't feel that's cheating. Golf is hard. If I was shooting in the high 70s from this distance I'd be thinking... maybe I should move back. But truth is that i'm not breaking 90. So it's still a challenge. The other point is that do I want to take 10 to 15 more swings at the ball with my back during a round? The answer there is no, not unless you write me a 'script for vicodin.

 

[*Range Rat]

So you shoot about 83 on a course rated 72/113 if the handicap you list at 11 is true.

I calculate my own handicap by using all my scores over the past couple years because it gives me a more honest picture of my golfing ability.

 

[Smiter]

You could always mix them during a round. Play the forwards when you want, and the whites when you see a hole you think you can make a score.

Hammy throwing smart things out? What’s this world coming too?

One course around here a lot of people play the blues on the back and the whites on the front. Same par, same overall yardage. It’s not an official combo, but I know a lot of folks play it that way. The blues are about 6300 and the whites about 6000, but there’s a lot of 400+ yard par4’s if you play the blues on one side.

Pretty amazing @InTheRough that you are playing those yardages. Nice job getting it out there! I know guys my age (42) that can’t play beyond 6k or so and have a chance to hit every green if all goes well.

 

[Phil75070]

I really like when tracks incorporate those

Even when the course doesn't set up combo tees you can make your own. The USGA has a chart (found here: https://tinyurl.com/572s8k8f) that will tell you how many strokes and slope points to subtract based on how many yards you've cut off the course that day. Then in GHIN you can input what that course rating and slope were for the day to keep an accurate handicap. Where the tees are selected when inputting a score, at the bottom of the drop down box is that option.

 

[myspinonit]

One problem with keeping an honest cap for league play etc is that can't just move up or back on a certain hole as it seems too tough from one set of tees, or the opposite. Rated combvo tees help when they are available. I can sometimes score much better playing the more forward tees, and generally tee shots are a lot more fun as is hitting irons onto greens when I'm on. But I give up sometimes half a dozen srtrokes depending on the course moving tom the more forward tees ( let's call them from Whites tto Reds, but different names are often used now). Forget competitions, that I don't really care about, mty handicap has already risen a few strokes this year from my short game. I'm working on that.
But meantim, e much lower course ratings on the "reds" if my short game is off isn't or irons are off isn't going to get back those few strokes I've given back to my bogey-ish handicap (last few years) from the whites.

 

[Smiter]

Even when the course doesn't set up combo tees you can make your own. The USGA has a chart (found here: https://tinyurl.com/572s8k8f) that will tell you how many strokes and slope points to subtract based on how many yards you've cut off the course that day. Then in GHIN you can input what that course rating and slope were for the day to keep an accurate handicap. Where the tees are selected when inputting a score, at the bottom of the drop down box is that option.

Did not know that. But I track with the free version of the Grint so I’m super serious about it, .

 

[leftshot]

my local muni has eliminated the colors and gone to numbers. It recommends different numbers based on average driver length. The groups I play in where the guys actually consider what they really hit on average off the tee have benefited in enjoyment.

Keep in mind, there never was an agreed upon color coding for tees. Black will be the tips on one course and three up on another. White could be anywhere. Just because one course or even a few share the same color ranking doesn't mean it will be that way elsewhere.

Then there are combo tees...

 

[BigMac]

Keep in mind, there never was an agreed upon color coding for tees. Black will be the tips on one course and three up on another. White could be anywhere. Just because one course or even a few share the same color ranking doesn't mean it will be that way elsewhere.

Then there are combo tees...

Years ago, most of the courses we played in southern CA were pretty commonly red/white/blue/black. Most of the courses I play now are all different. In fact, I don’t know of one course anywhere in my current area that uses those color conventions.

 

[InTheRough]

Hammy throwing smart things out? What’s this world coming too?

One course around here a lot of people play the blues on the back and the whites on the front. Same par, same overall yardage. It’s not an official combo, but I know a lot of folks play it that way. The blues are about 6300 and the whites about 6000, but there’s a lot of 400+ yard par4’s if you play the blues on one side.

Pretty amazing @InTheRough that you are playing those yardages. Nice job getting it out there! I know guys my age (42) that can’t play beyond 6k or so and have a chance to hit every green if all goes well.

It's about minimizing mistakes. I don't count hitting a bad shot as a mistake. I count that as poor execution, especially if it's a shot you should be able to hit like a 7i or a hybrid and you roll it. You may have had the proper shot planned so don't beat yourself up about it. I've watched videos on course management and I'm a much different golfer than I was a few years ago. Golf Sidekick is one I like for this. But I won't give up that big forgiving clubface on my driver no matter what he says about that.

I could reach this in regulation but there's a good chance I'll end up in one of the bunkers, so instead I'll lay up and hit a pitch shot onto the green and try to scramble for par. This does two things: it takes the pressure off hitting a very difficult shot; and you are more likely to hit a better shot with what you're now trying to do because it's within your skill set. When you play like this it's all about your short game. You have to spend most of your time hitting partial wedges and driver. Whereas normally you're spending most of your practice on approach shots and driver. And putting. You need to practice putting. You need to be able to get the speed of the greens, read the breaks, and get it close or in. To break 90 you need those up and downs. You're not even thinking about birdies.

When my wedge game is on, and I'm getting at least one decent shot elsewhere on a hole I can hang with much longer hitters who play at my level in gross score. Better players? I need my handicap.

 

[Smiter]

You rock.

Enough said.