putting with the pin in pace of play

[RayG]

I think it had to do more with the case of being “away”, but being on the green as opposed to being closer but off the green. You have the pin being pulled for long putt, then back in for the guy chipping, and so forth. But thankfully, “normal” folks usually just have everyone get on the green before worrying who is away and dealing with the pin being “okay for everyone?”


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[rollin]

I think it had to do more with the case of being “away”, but being on the green as opposed to being closer but off the green. You have the pin being pulled for long putt, then back in for the guy chipping, and so forth. But thankfully, “normal” folks usually just have everyone get on the green before worrying who is away and dealing with the pin being “okay for everyone?”


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and with the pin being left in all the time, no one would ever have to worry about dealing with it at all at any time regardless where anyone is. In the end all the pin is imo...is really just an unnecessary task that does disrupt flow. As Ive said already, most of us just don't think its disruptive because dealing with it has always been part of normal routine. But had the pin always been left in and now a new rule was added that stated it must be removed, we would then realize the disruption to flow it actually is.

 

[radiman]

and with the pin being left in all the time, no one would ever have to worry about dealing with it at all at any time regardless where anyone is. In the end all the pin is imo...is really just an unnecessary task that does disrupt flow. As Ive said already, most of us just don't think its disruptive because dealing with it has always been part of normal routine. But had the pin always been left in and now a new rule was added that stated it must be removed, we would then realize the disruption to flow it actually is.

Can't control outside forces though. Excessively windy days could make putting with the flag in a nightmare. To accomplish this, the flag would have to become standardized and made rigid enough to not tilt in the wind. The only way I would accept this possibility.

I am not opposed to the flag being left in by choice. It won't effect me since I'll probably play the same as I currently do. Minus tap ins. I wouldn't like being forced to leave it in though.

 

[rollin]

Can't control outside forces though. Excessively windy days could make putting with the flag in a nightmare. To accomplish this, the flag would have to become standardized and made rigid enough to not tilt in the wind. The only way I would accept this possibility.

I am not opposed to the flag being left in by choice. It won't effect me since I'll probably play the same as I currently do. Minus tap ins. I wouldn't like being forced to leave it in though.

I can see if a pin is an extra thick pin. Personally Ive only ever seen what to me is average size or occasionally have seen the ones with skinny bottoms at the hole which is even less chance of being hit by the ball. I have played in plenty of windy days and an average pin has to really be bent over pretty darn drastically in order to close the gap enough where as a ball wouldn't fit between it and the hole edge. Anything less than that at all and the help actually increases the odds of the ball dropping in as per the pelz experiment. Actually hitting a pin in itself is whats been proven to be beneficial so not hitting one means its less beneficial. And if its a skinny bottom pin it probably wont happen at all or the conditions would be so very bad you probably wouldn't be playing anyway. I just don't see this as a common occurrence even in places known to be on the windy side and that's assuming a thicker pin as well.

I havnt traveled the world playing golf or even all too many places other than my region. But I have played in a few different regions and plenty different courses. Im just not seeing what your worried about being a common issue at all but only a rarity (at least from my experiences) and I have had my share of strong windy days.

Maybe Im just wrong about that but I just don't know too many people who constantly play in winds so bad that cause the pin to close the gap to be smaller than the ball at least not at all on any regular basis.

So I think the term nightmare would be an overstatement. That would mean your regularly playing in winds strong enough to close that gap to less than ball width. It would also mean most the pins are leaning towards the ball. I mean even that seems a stretch where as most times your putting or chipping in you not only need winds strong enough to close the gap smaller than the ball but it would also have to always ust so happen to be facing in the same direction that your ball is comin in from. What are the odds of that? and just hiow often is this really happening? Imo youd have to be the unluckiest player for all this to happen regularly.

 

[radiman]

I can see if a pin is an extra thick pin. Personally Ive only ever seen what to me is average size or occasionally have seen the ones with skinny bottoms at the hole which is even less chance of being hit by the ball. I have played in plenty of windy days and an average pin has to really be bent over pretty darn drastically in order to close the gap enough where as a ball wouldn't fit between it and the hole edge. Anything less than that at all and the help actually increases the odds of the ball dropping in as per the pelz experiment. Actually hitting a pin in itself is whats been proven to be beneficial so not hitting one means its less beneficial. And if its a skinny bottom pin it probably wont happen at all or the conditions would be so very bad you probably wouldn't be playing anyway. I just don't see this as a common occurrence even in places known to be on the windy side and that's assuming a thicker pin as well.

I havnt traveled the world playing golf or even all too many places other than my region. But I have played in a few different regions and plenty different courses. Im just not seeing what your worried about being a common issue at all but only a rarity (at least from my experiences) and I have had my share of strong windy days.

Maybe Im just wrong about that but I just don't know too many people who constantly play in winds so bad that cause the pin to close the gap to be smaller than the ball at least not at all on any regular basis.

So I think the term nightmare would be an overstatement. That would mean your regularly playing in winds strong enough to close that gap to less than ball width. It would also mean most the pins are leaning towards the ball. I mean even that seems a stretch where as most times your putting or chipping in you not only need winds strong enough to close the gap smaller than the ball but it would also have to always ust so happen to be facing in the same direction that your ball is comin in from. What are the odds of that? and just hiow often is this really happening? Imo youd have to be the unluckiest player for all this to happen regularly.

15mph winds with 20+mph gusts can get that pin moving back and forth. Not just a steady bend to it.

 

[rollin]

15mph winds with 20+mph gusts can get that pin moving back and forth. Not just a steady bend to it.

I think your overestimating how much its bending and moving in those winds and I also think your overestimating the times it would hurt you. As said, even if it were to close the gap to be smaller than ball width it would also have to coincidentally do that in the same exact direction and at the same exact time the ball is coming in from.

We can go on and on. As most may know me I don't mind going on and on...lol. As long as its good conversation even debate (and it is good ) its fine with me. You will do whatever it is that makes you feel better about it and that's fine too. I just dont feel your reasonings for it are something that's going to happen nearly as much at all as you think. With due respect just seems like your stuck on believing your putting a whole heck of a lot percentage of the time where as the pin will close the gap too small at the incoming ball direction and also at the same time as it comes. If that's really the truth than well....I guess I am wrong.

 

[ChristopherKee]

Maybe I just play with people who tend to hit Greens in Regulation more often than others. :act-up:

Rather than having to wait for this person to chip or pitch on who is "away" at the time, leave the pin in .... long lag putter up next, tend the flag, then take the flag out. Versus just playing the way we have always played. I see no distinct advantage in doing so.

This will probably be the norm, guy marking his ball close to the pin after lagging up or finishing off can just pull it. Time saver really is when a couple guys lagging up at the pin and pulling once they get close rather than walking up, pulling the pin, walking back and lagging.

To me it's all the same, I'm just too lazy to pull it but if someone else does I won't ask them to put it back =).

 

[radiman]

I think your overestimating how much its bending and moving in those winds and I also think your overestimating the times it would hurt you. As said, even if it were to close the gap to be smaller than ball width it would also have to coincidentally do that in the same exact direction and at the same exact time the ball is coming in from.

We can go on and on. As most may know me I don't mind going on and on...lol. As long as its good conversation even debate (and it is good ) its fine with me. You will do whatever it is that makes you feel better about it and that's fine too. I just dont feel your reasonings for it are something that's going to happen nearly as much at all as you think. With due respect just seems like your stuck on believing your putting a whole heck of a lot percentage of the time where as the pin will close the gap too small at the incoming ball direction and also at the same time as it comes. If that's really the truth than well....I guess I am wrong.

That's the thing though. If it happens a few times, that is too many for me. If the flag is out and I lip the putt or it hops over the back of the hole, that's on me. If an outside force causes the pin to move, no matter how rare you think it may be, I want my ball nowhere near it As I said before, I am not 100% opposed to leaving the flag in. I just don't view it as a definitive benefit just because of the Pelz study. If he had some statistics on breaking putts where the ball isn't entering at the center of the cup, I'd be more pursuaded. I would be very much against having to leave it in. My main argument (without actually arguing), is that there is a valid reason for not wanting the pin in all the time.

The thing we have to look forward to, is that this topic will be studied thoroughly now that the rule is in effect. I look forward to seeing the results.

On a side note, I am still surprised that the entities that are responsible for "saving the integrity of the game" with the anchoring ban decided to allow this. Again, I don't oppose it, it just seems like an odd move based on their past actions. Maybe once DeChambeau wins the Masters by leaving the flag in they'll second guess the decision?

 

[rollin]

That's the thing though. If it happens a few times, that is too many for me. If the flag is out and I lip the putt or it hops over the back of the hole, that's on me. If an outside force causes the pin to move, no matter how rare you think it may be, I want my ball nowhere near it As I said before, I am not 100% opposed to leaving the flag in. I just don't view it as a definitive benefit just because of the Pelz study. If he had some statistics on breaking putts where the ball isn't entering at the center of the cup, I'd be more pursuaded. I would be very much against having to leave it in. My main argument (without actually arguing), is that there is a valid reason for not wanting the pin in all the time.

The thing we have to look forward to, is that this topic will be studied thoroughly now that the rule is in effect. I look forward to seeing the results.

On a side note, I am still surprised that the entities that are responsible for "saving the integrity of the game" with the anchoring ban decided to allow this. Again, I don't oppose it, it just seems like an odd move based on their past actions. Maybe once DeChambeau wins the Masters by leaving the flag in they'll second guess the decision?

if you look at my post which quotes portions of the pelz study, They did approach the hole not just from center but also from left and right sided of center (off center) as well.

As for the games integrity? I really don't see leaving the pin in as any sort of loss of integrity. I don't see that has anything to do with integrity of the game at all. IMO the game loses nothing here in that sense. The only thing imo that the game could lose is the disruption to flow that dealing with the pin does place on it now as no one ever has to tend it, go get it, place in then back out and in again, etc...whatever the case is now. All of it just gets eliminated.

The flow of the tour has far less to gain than our flow does because that is hardly evert a 'flow" per say anyway. The only thing on tour it would ever really do is gain an advantage on those rarest of times the pin actually did help a chip or putt stay in the hole for the pro. And that is something we would get more help with than them because we are not nearly the chipper and putters that they are. And chipping/pitching is probably where that most help would come for them. So we stand more to gain than they do in all senses. Flow, chipping, putting.

But that said imo what will happen is...soon as one chips and hits the pin and it doesn't go in they are going to say "see, it doesn't help". But that is not the case at all because they may actually have now kept the ball closer to the pin where as otherwise would have rolled further away from the cup if the pin was out. Remember the study consisted of thousands of balls played. They needed that many balls played in order to determine the results because its so minimal and so the results in live golf would never be seen in any real sense that one could noticeably feel. In order to notice the difference (actual results) one would have to stand there and play thousands of balls to simulate the same shots over and over and over with the pin in and with the pin out. But someone did that work already (Pelz) and unless one wants to do it himself it should make good financial sense to a pro to play with the pin always in even if the advantage is very minimal at best.

 

[radiman]

I don't think it as a loss of integrity. My point was that I don't see anchoring to be either. Just trying to make the point that the decision was an odd one based on their past stances on how they feel the game of golf should be. I will have to go over that study again. My first read through, it appeared that they were on a flat surface and then uphill and downhill.

I feel like we are going in circles (probably my own fault) and my original protest is now not evident. I am not protesting the rule. If someone wants to leave the pin in, I have no issues with that. My initial protest was the thought of making it a requirement to leave the pin in. I will leave it at that as I don't want to dilute the conversation and I have nothing further to add other than my own opinions.

 

[rollin]

I don't think it as a loss of integrity. My point was that I don't see anchoring to be either. Just trying to make the point that the decision was an odd one based on their past stances on how they feel the game of golf should be. I will have to go over that study again. My first read through, it appeared that they were on a flat surface and then uphill and downhill.

I feel like we are going in circles (probably my own fault) and my original protest is now not evident. I am not protesting the rule. If someone wants to leave the pin in, I have no issues with that. My initial protest was the thought of making it a requirement to leave the pin in. I will leave it at that as I don't want to dilute the conversation and I have nothing further to add other than my own opinions.

That's fine....your opinions count. Conversation is good imo.

 

[RayG]

15mph winds with 20+mph gusts can get that pin moving back and forth. Not just a steady bend to it.

Then have someone tend it to keep it straight... without taking pin out. Is that covered in the new rules?

 

[radiman]

Then have someone tend it to keep it straight... without taking pin out. Is that covered in the new rules?

I don't know. My first thought would be that it wouldn't be allowed. But, it's a good question. If that's what it took, it would just be easier to take the pin out than have someone tending for every putt.

I'll have to read up on all of the changes. I'll have a good 3-4 months to get them down before having to worry about them in play.

 

[OLDPRO46]

I don't know. My first thought would be that it wouldn't be allowed. But, it's a good question. If that's what it took, it would just be easier to take the pin out than have someone tending for every putt.

I'll have to read up on all of the changes. I'll have a good 3-4 months to get them down before having to worry about them in play.

This has been on my mind for some time...... If it's tended, does the pin have to be pulled as in the old rule? If the pin is tilting, for whatever reason are you permitted to straighten prior to putting? Questionable in my mind.

 

[BigDill]

Of the 25+ rounds I have played over the last few months, I have kept the pin in on at least 20 of those rounds. I personally am a believer that the pin in approach speeds up play a bit, but only with the presumption that the entire group leaves it in. When you have a mixed group (some in, some out) then play is slowed down more than just leaving it out for the entire group. When I play with my normal partners, we are all "pin in" people. When i am paired with randoms and they prefer pin out then I will play pin out. So to the OP's original question, the only situation where I think there is a significant impact on pace of play is when there is a mixed group of pin in/pin out players. None of this has as big an impact as the people who line and measure every putt individually, but I digress.

I have also found that leaving the pin in gives me a better target to aim for on my putts, similar to what you find on a practice green. After hundreds of putts, I cannot recall a situation where I would have sunk a putt but for the pin impeding the ball.

 

[rollin]

Of the 25+ rounds I have played over the last few months, I have kept the pin in on at least 20 of those rounds. I personally am a believer that the pin in approach speeds up play a bit, but only with the presumption that the entire group leaves it in. When you have a mixed group (some in, some out) then play is slowed down more than just leaving it out for the entire group. When I play with my normal partners, we are all "pin in" people. When i am paired with randoms and they prefer pin out then I will play pin out. So to the OP's original question, the only situation where I think there is a significant impact on pace of play is when there is a mixed group of pin in/pin out players. None of this has as big an impact as the people who line and measure every putt individually, but I digress.

I have also found that leaving the pin in gives me a better target to aim for on my putts, similar to what you find on a practice green. After hundreds of putts, I cannot recall a situation where I would have sunk a putt but for the pin impeding the ball.

I agree,....I think having this as a choice in itself is a big mistake and will create issues. One of the biggest issues now is imo from people who insist it be taken out for their chipping/short pitching. Ive seen so where two many times now where two or more are off the green and the person currently playing just has to go and pull the pin. While the the other player or two who have yet to take their turn never wanted it out. So this person had to now go walk away from their shot to go pull the freaking pin and then head back and line up their shot again before taking it. And now the others who wanted it in have to now wait and then either have to have it replaced or what often happens for sake of flow is that we often just leave it out even though we wanted to chip with it in.

There so many scenarios I can come up with where dealing with the pin is nothing but a time consuming flow disrupter. I have played in just enough rounds on occasion where the pin was left alone on given holes just for sake of everyone not wanting to bother with it based on where we all were at the times and even just enough whole rounds too and there is no doubt in my mind it makes for a much smoother flow over all. It just does. And god knows how many players need help smoothening the flow of things out as they are otherwise human rain delays as it is while around and on the greens. Leaving the pin alone all the time imo would just be one less thing removed from the rest of the unnecessary and often ridiculous antics that go on.

Imo mny people are simply unaware just how much their greens antics are disruptive to flow because what happens is that most people don't say anything. The other thing that happens often which they do not realize is that other players tend to change the way they go about things in order to make up for the time delay of the other. And so the person who is too deliberate and a flow disrupter never sees an actual delay in the pace. From their view they are perfectly in flow with the others. But in reality they are not at all. Im not saying the pin solves all of that of course but it will do its small part in easing the flow of things.

 

[Chisag]

... Golfers sure can make the simplest things complicated. Unless the wind is bending the flag it is technically more advantageous to putt with it in. Simple enough. But the game does have a mental component and I understand some that have putted with the flag out their entire life may find putting with it in, a disadvantage because well ... it just seems weird. So showing rare insight, the USGA has made it optional because golfers would be screaming if it were immediately mandatory. I have a feeling that down the road a few years, they may make it mandatory but ya never know with these guys. In the meantime, if everyone in my group wants the flag out, I will go along unless it is a long putt, downhill or in a tricky position and then I will want it put back in. I have good speed control so flat or uphill putts can be made with the flag in. But why someone with poor speed control would take the flag out is a head scratcher for me.

 

[rollin]

... Golfers sure can make the simplest things complicated. Unless the wind is bending the flag it is technically more advantageous to putt with it in. Simple enough. But the game does have a mental component and I understand some that have putted with the flag out their entire life may find putting with it in, a disadvantage because well ... it just seems weird. So showing rare insight, the USGA has made it optional because golfers would be screaming if it were immediately mandatory. I have a feeling that down the road a few years, they may make it mandatory but ya never know with these guys. In the meantime, if everyone in my group wants the flag out, I will go along unless it is a long putt, downhill or in a tricky position and then I will want it put back in. I have good speed control so flat or uphill putts can be made with the flag in. But why someone with poor speed control would take the flag out is a head scratcher for me.

and that's only if it bends enough to close the gap to be smaller than ball width because as per the study it was determined the bent pin (except for that one scenario) actually "increased the odds" of the ball dropping in via it being deflected downwards into the hole. I don't think its a matter of making things complicated but I think its just human nature to be afraid of change.

 

[radiman]

Rollin, I saw this, chuckled to myself, and thought of our back and forth. Stick in is Bryson approved.

 

[jim54]

We played the round today leaving the flagstick in and frankly I don't like, I found it distracting and annoying. Old habit are hard to break I guess, it is ok if you are off the green or a mile away but for 20 ft in I want the flag out if I have my preference.

All the young guns wanted it in so I had no problem going along, but it certainly did not help me personally to have it in.

 

[BigBear]

Had a double breaker over a hump today for a birdie. Was asked how I wanted the pin as everyone else had already lagged there puts closer.

Greens were super fast probably 11 on the stint so I banged it into the back of the cup it jumped out and gave me a 4 foot slider which I missed.

Wish for once I said keep it in instead of trying to be the nice guy.

Maybe it would still have jumped out but I would have had an uphill putt.


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[DonJuan]

Will it really pick up the pace? For us the hackers not the pro's.

Is the group on the green done?
The pin is in, we good to go? No wait, one guy just pulled the pin. No wait another guy just put in in to putt.
They are done, go ahead and hit. I think they are all done....opps!! Sorry we saw the pin in. Didn't mean to hit up on you. Guess you weren't all done putting.

It will be interesting how much this type of scenario plays out in this year.

The next future rule will be an additional flag on the side of the green letting the group behind know the group on the green is done. Sort of like the blind green flag pole thing.

I wait until the group is off the green anyway. Not an issue.

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