What Muscles Are Used To Rotate The Pelvis In The Golf Swing?

[WILDTHING]

Oops apologies for the typo error in my thread title (not sure how to correct it)!

There are a few theories out there , so what do you think are the best theories that could explain how PGA pros rotate their pelvis (probably several apply because they won't be identical across players).

I personally prefer Dr Jeff Mann's theories below

How to Optimally Rotate the Pelv (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

Which is complemented by his video below



There is also Kelvin Miyahiri's theories explained in the link below

2015-07 : How Great Players Rotate In A Golf Swing (kelvinmiyahiragolf-articles.com)

I suspect the discussion might become quite detailed but may provide a general appreciation of what is involved (although we may end up agreeing to disagree).

 

[WILDTHING]

Razaar believes in Kelvin Miyahiri's concepts and said this :

"my question to 'Old Mate" is "where is the left pelvic tilt during transition to engage right lateral bend of the spine and nutation of the sacroiliac joint which fuses the pelvis and spine into one unit. Without this fusion there is a high possibility of slack being present. This is one of the issues with those players who have a strong ER movement in the right hip and a weak ER in the left hip during transition. It should be the other way around strong in the left and weaker in the right with emphasis on right hip abduction."

And I replied:

Not sure I understand the question . Why would there need to be left pelvic tilt to conduct right lateral bend ? I'm sitting on my chair at the moment, pelvis level , and I can do right lateral tilt using the thoracic section of my spine. One cannot do side lateral tilt at the lower lumbar level because the facet joints are shaped in such a way that impedes that type of movement. Why would one use the 'Spine Engine' theory to turn the pelvis when there are perfectly good muscles already there to do it for you (ie. the pelvic rotator muscles , in the early downswing because by P5 they have already contracted and cannot turn the pelvis anymore)?

I can ask him the question if you wish as I am a forum member on his website but I think he'd ask for more details to be able to form a reply.

I'm going to create another thread to discuss this (apologies to the OP).

razaar replied :

While you are sitting in your chair imagine there is something foreign under your right cheek butt causing you an issue. You lift your right glute and you look down to see what it is. Now move your elbow inside the hip. Now rotate your left trap up and back and your right oblique forward. You are now in a position to rip the ball.

 

[TrueMotionMatt]

Razaar believes in Kelvin Miyahiri's concepts and said this :

"my question to 'Old Mate" is "where is the left pelvic tilt during transition to engage right lateral bend of the spine and nutation of the sacroiliac joint which fuses the pelvis and spine into one unit. Without this fusion there is a high possibility of slack being present. This is one of the issues with those players who have a strong ER movement in the right hip and a weak ER in the left hip during transition. It should be the other way around strong in the left and weaker in the right with emphasis on right hip abduction."

And I replied:

razaar replied :

While you are sitting in your chair imagine there is something foreign under your right cheek butt causing you an issue. You lift your right glute and you look down to see what it is. Now move your elbow inside the hip. Now rotate your left trap up and back and your right oblique forward. You are now in a position to rip the ball.

I thought Kelvin’s explanation here was an excellent analogy to use to describe this feeling.

 

[WILDTHING]

Whereas Dr Mann (according to my interpretation of his articles) thinks the right femur is internally rotated in the hip socket in the backswing that stretch the pelvic rotary muscles. There is a lot of weight pressure loading on your right leg (while the left has very little) and the hip joint is stabilised by P4 . You then perform contractions of those pelvic rotary muscles that will rotate the whole pelvis (as per these diagrams below, especially B). If you didn't weight pressure your right hip/leg , then contraction of the pelvic rotary muscle will cause rotation of your right femur in its hip socket (ie. external rotation -see diagram C).

The pelvic rotary muscles turns the pelvis from P4 (top of backswing) and their contraction (and pelvis rotation capability) is exhausted by P5 (left arm parallel) in the downswing.





While the above is happening there is also activation of the right hip flexor muscle (iliopsoas). It flexes the right thigh at the level of the right hip joint (see yellow arrow in image below). However, note that it also simultaneously causes external rotation of the right femur (see curved white arrow, which demonstrates the counterclockwise rotation of the right femur).




With regards (some ) of the other upper body biomechanical moves, the below is happening almost simultaneously:

1. Right shoulder moved downplane
2. Right upper arm adducting
3. Right elbow moving into a pitch elbow position above the right hip
4. Right lateral spine flexion.

The above is the 1st phase of the downswing - it gets more complicated from P5-P7

PS. I forgot to add that the left pelvic rotary muscles are also contracted from P4-P5 , but the left leg has little pressure loading , therefore this will cause the femur to externally rotate in the hip socket. That's why you see the left knee rotate in the external rotation direction almost immediately and just before pelvic rotation happens.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

My question is if the move the big guy demonstrates in the video correct?

 

[WILDTHING]

My question is if the move the big guy demonstrates in the video correct?

Jim George (the big guy) is exaggerating the movements but they seem to reflect the pivot rotation of many golf pros . But some pros also have a right hip spin out type of pelvic motion , just like Justin Thomas who get most of his weight pressure shifted to his lead leg immediately as he starts his downswing . To rotate his pelvis he has to push off his right foot and that causes his right hip to spin out. Normally that early right hip spin would cause the right elbow to get trapped behind the torso but he can avoid that because his arms are quite outstretched and further from his body .

 

[razaar]

Whereas Dr Mann (according to my interpretation of his articles) thinks the right femur is internally rotated in the hip socket in the backswing that stretch the pelvic rotary muscles. There is a lot of weight pressure loading on your right leg (while the left has very little) and the hip joint is stabilised by P4 . You then perform contractions of those pelvic rotary muscles that will rotate the whole pelvis (as per these diagrams below, especially B). If you didn't weight pressure your right hip/leg , then contraction of the pelvic rotary muscle will cause rotation of your right femur in its hip socket (ie. external rotation -see diagram C).

The pelvic rotary muscles turns the pelvis from P4 (top of backswing) and their contraction (and pelvis rotation capability) is exhausted by P5 (left arm parallel) in the downswing.



View attachment 8980781

While the above is happening there is also activation of the right hip flexor muscle (iliopsoas). It flexes the right thigh at the level of the right hip joint (see yellow arrow in image below). However, note that it also simultaneously causes external rotation of the right femur (see curved white arrow, which demonstrates the counterclockwise rotation of the right femur).


View attachment 8980783

With regards (some ) of the other upper body biomechanical moves, the below is happening almost simultaneously:

1. Right shoulder moved downplane
2. Right upper arm adducting
3. Right elbow moving into a pitch elbow position above the right hip
4. Right lateral spine flexion.

The above is the 1st phase of the downswing - it gets more complicated from P5-P7

PS. I forgot to add that the left pelvic rotary muscles are also contracted from P4-P5 , but the left leg has little pressure loading , therefore this will cause the femur to externally rotate in the hip socket. That's why you see the left knee rotate in the external rotation direction almost immediately and just before pelvic rotation happens.

Hi Wildthing
Can you describe what muscles you use to rotate the pelvis in both backswing, transition and to the finish?

 

[WILDTHING]

Hi Wildthing
Can you describe what muscles you use to rotate the pelvis in both backswing, transition and to the finish?

I'll check it out tomorrow as its my bedtime now, 5am in the morning to be accurate.

 

[GolfLivesMatter]

Jim George (the big guy) is exaggerating the movements but they seem to reflect the pivot rotation of many golf pros . But some pros also have a right hip spin out type of pelvic motion , just like Justin Thomas who get most of his weight pressure shifted to his lead leg immediately as he starts his downswing . To rotate his pelvis he has to push off his right foot and that causes his right hip to spin out. Normally that early right hip spin would cause the right elbow to get trapped behind the torso but he can avoid that because his arms are quite outstretched and further from his body .

View attachment 8980831

Thanks. The move is very subtle vs. how demonstrated which is likely why some folks might struggle with replicating during a full-speed swing. See Thomas below. Oh, and also his weight is on the left side very early.

 

[WILDTHING]

I've asked the question of Dr Mann for the backswing . I don't think there is much difference in the biomechanics used in the transition phase apart from the timing of the contraction of the pelvic girdle muscles and those used to turn the upper torso (ie. the abs -specifically the internal and external obliques). The golf scientists do suggest that some SSC (stretch-shortening Cycle) between pelvis and torso to help maximise the torque generation (and maybe the quicker production of slightly more forces in the downswing).

Dr Mann doesn't seem to have the specifics of the muscles used in the late follow-through but I can imagine its the same closer to impact as per below.

The left vastus lateralis muscle forms a large part of the left quadriceps muscle group in the anterior compartment of the left thigh and when it contracts (isotonic) it extends the left knee, and it also braces the left knee so that it doesn't buckle/bend sideways



The isotonic contraction of the left 'Gluteous Maximus' muscle

The muscle lying under the black arrows is the left gluteus maximus muscle, and it is attached medially (at its origin) to the outer (lateral) left edge of the sacrum and to a significant section of the posterior pelvic crest and it inserts at the back of the upper left femur. When that muscle contracts (and shortens in the direction of the black arrows) it pulls the left upper femur towards the sacrum (midline) and thereby contributes to the counterclockwise rotation of the left hip joint away from the target as the left hip joint extends




Isotonic contraction of the 'Adductor Magnus' muscle

Another biomechanical factor that contributes to the continued counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis in the later downswing is the fact that the left adductor magnus muscle is still actively contracting and it pulls the left inferior pubic ramus (and therefore the left side of the lower pelvis) closer to the left femur. During the later downswing, the pelvis rotates counterclockwise more than the left femur, so that the left femur becomes progressively more internally rotated in the left hip joint, and isotonic contraction of the left adductor magnus muscle is continuously pulling the left femur and the left-lower pelvis closer together during this time period.



During the impact and early followthrough time period, one often notes that a pro golfer's left femur externally rotates to a variable degree and that is also due to the continued isotonic contraction of the left gluteus maximus muscle. The reason why contraction of the left gluteus maximus muscle causes external rotation of the left femur, as well as extension of the left femur in the left hip joint, is the "fact" that the gluteus maximus muscle's point of insertion on the back of the left upper femur is on the outer (lateral) side of the center of the back of the left femur. The degree of external rotation of the left femur varies considerably in different professional golfers, and I will discuss the biomechanical factors that affect the magnitude of this biomechanical phenomenon in greater detail later in this review paper.

 

[WILDTHING]

Hi Wildthing
Can you describe what muscles you use to rotate the pelvis in both backswing, transition and to the finish?

Hi razaar

I couldn't understand what bubble block of ground forces meant in your post on the other thread. Is this explained on Kelvins site ?

I'm looking through KM's site but I'm not sure he's correct about the use of the internal/external obliques in the early downswing. For example these photos are not a reflection of what I see in a golfers downswing .



I view the obliques doing the below:

Dr Mann states " I think the dynamic X-factor phenomenon, where the pelvis rotates counterclockwise first before the upper torso rotates, mainly stretches the external abdominal musculature, which will then cause the upper torso to potentially rotate counterclockwise with more force. "

 

[razaar]

The bubble block reference is my personal choice of words to describe the slack in the coil of the body. Others refer to it as 'stripping the thread' - you may have come across that in the publication 'Search for the perfect swing".
What it means is anything that interfers with the transfer of ground forces from the ground up through the pelvis and spine. It can include a defect in the spine, a relaxing of the coiling tension as it builds (for comfort purposes), missing essential micro movements for macro movements etc.

 

[WILDTHING]

Here's the response I got from Dr Mann about the backswing:

"I think that one can rotate the pelvis in the backswing by activating the right-sided internal hip rotator muscles while simultaneously pushing off the left forefoot in the early backswing action. As the pressure loading increases under the right foot in the later backswing, then the pressure loading under the left forefoot should be simultaneously decreasing. I think that if one rotates the upper torso at the same time that a certain amount of torque is probably transmitted down the spine causing a clockwise rotation of the lumbar spine, which should help to make it easier to rotate the pelvis clockwise. Straightening of the right leg as the right foot becomes increasingly pressure-loaded can help push the right hip joint in a clockwise direction."

 

[razaar]

Here's the response I got from Dr Mann about the backswing:

"I think that one can rotate the pelvis in the backswing by activating the right-sided internal hip rotator muscles while simultaneously pushing off the left forefoot in the early backswing action. As the pressure loading increases under the right foot in the later backswing, then the pressure loading under the left forefoot should be simultaneously decreasing. I think that if one rotates the upper torso at the same time that a certain amount of torque is probably transmitted down the spine causing a clockwise rotation of the lumbar spine, which should help to make it easier to rotate the pelvis clockwise. Straightening of the right leg as the right foot becomes increasingly pressure-loaded can help push the right hip joint in a clockwise direction."

He has left something out - ask him what the lower right leg is doing for this to work.

 

[WILDTHING]

He has left something out - ask him what the lower right leg is doing for this to work.

I can only imagine that straightening right leg will cause the lower leg/foot to push towards the ball-target line and one will experience an equal and opposite horizontal ground force reaction (shear force) . Depending on the angulation of the right leg and the combined 'net vertical and horizontal forces' , the right hip joint could be pushed back and left (from a birds eye viewpoint of a right handed golfer).

On another point , I've learned a bit more about 'Fascia' via these you-tube videos below - very interesting (they are only a few minutes duration).


www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X0GtSyH1QU&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6cUj6jig0&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2lT_gFlus&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrxQB3547A&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Zt0nf_Fys&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjxytSr_qoE&ab_channel=InstituteEducation

 

[razaar]

I can only imagine that straightening right leg will cause the lower leg/foot to push towards the ball-target line and one will experience an equal and opposite horizontal ground force reaction (shear force) . Depending on the angulation of the right leg and the combined 'net vertical and horizontal forces' , the right hip joint could be pushed back and left (from a birds eye viewpoint of a right handed golfer).

On another point , I've learned a bit more about 'Fascia' via these you-tube videos below - very interesting (they are only a few minutes duration).


www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X0GtSyH1QU&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI6cUj6jig0&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2lT_gFlus&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrxQB3547A&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9Zt0nf_Fys&ab_channel=InstituteEducation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjxytSr_qoE&ab_channel=InstituteEducation

IMO Old Mate is teaching a much earlier golf swing than what the current crop of tour players have been taught. Basically it is a backswing with a lateral turn where the hips slide away from the target with the right thigh and calf rotating towards the target. Ben Hogan had the same movement in his swing where he rotated the thigh and knee towards the ball in the address and maintained this through the backswing. The rotation of the right calf towards the target is what gave him the leverage to shift the weight back towards the target with external rotation of the thigh in concert with the hip abductors. He also used a whipping action with the left leg to externally rotate and abduct the left hip . My point is this method has to come with rotation of the calf towards the target. Hogan did alot of different things so he is not a great example but it serves the purpose here.

Today's athletic swing is much simpler in that some lateral movent does occur but the right thigh rotates away from the target and the calf towards the target. The right hip is externally rotated but in the late stages of the coiling action the the tightening of the coil and the body rotation forces the right hip into internal rotation. During transition the left leg rotates counterclockwise as in the old method but the upper left glute rotates downward and away from the target. Almost simultaneously the right hip returns to ER and the abductors hold it in place. All I am doing here is writing basically what I learnt from Kelvin's articles.

I have played with both methods . I won club and regional championships with Old Mates Method but I played with a flip release because the body speed wasn't there for a hold off release. Kelvin's method has lots more speed and supports a hold off release in my advancing years.

 

[WILDTHING]

This is what Dr Mann states on his website

Now, consider three different rotary-translational pelvic motion patterns that can happen in the early downswing (during the hip-squaring phase of the "left hip clearing" action).



The pro golfer's pelvic motion pattern is used by the majority of professional golfers and it has the following characteristics. During the hip-squaring phase, the right hip joint remains nearly in the same location and it only moves a few inches in a targetwards and outwards direction, while the left hip joint moves much more in space and it mainly moves backwards in a direction that is away from the ball-target line and towards the tush line. There is very little (only 1-3") of left-lateral pelvic shift happening during this first phase of the "left hip clearing action" and there should be no deliberate attempt to shift one's body weight targetwards. Note that the back of the right buttock (or sacrum) remains at, or very near, the tush line during the entire duration of the early downswing between P4 and P5.

Door Hinge Example: Manuel De Los Santos




Pro Golfer Pattern: Jack Nicklaus




Hip Spinning : Justin Thomas as in previous post.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I'm confused

@razaar, you assert "IMO Old Mate is teaching a much earlier golf swing than what the current crop of tour players have been taught. Basically it is a backswing with a lateral turn where the hips slide away from the target with the right thigh and calf rotating towards the target."

How can a backswing, lateral or otherwise, result in the right hip sliding away from the target while the right thigh rotates toward it? The right thigh is connected to the right hip by a ball and socket connection at the top of the femur. So I'm lost on this one.

Btw: Is "Old Mate" Dr. Mann?

@WILDTHING, @razaar was talking about backswing, and ISTM you're talking about downswing, no?

To both of you: Perhaps I'm looking at this way too simplistically, but ISTM the swings, and the hip/pelvis/leg motions described by both Kelvin and Mann, the fact that a good swing is initiated from the "ground up," are essentially identical, differing in what muscles they each assert are responsible. Kelvin asserts it's primarily internal muscles and fascia, Mann asserts it's external muscles.

 

[razaar]

I'm confused

I'm confused

@razaar, you assert "IMO Old Mate is teaching a much earlier golf swing than what the current crop of tour players have been taught. Basically it is a backswing with a lateral turn where the hips slide away from the target with the right thigh and calf rotating towards the target."

How can a backswing, lateral or otherwise, result in the right hip sliding away from the target while the right thigh rotates toward it? The right thigh is connected to the right hip by a ball and socket connection at the top of the femur. So I'm lost on this one.

Btw: Is "Old Mate" Dr. Mann?

@WILDTHING, @razaar was talking about backswing, and ISTM you're talking about downswing, no?

To both of you: Perhaps I'm looking at this way too simplistically, but ISTM the swings, and the hip/pelvis/leg motions described by both Kelvin and Mann, the fact that a good swing is initiated from the "ground up," are essentially identical, differing in what muscles they each assert are responsible. Kelvin asserts it's primarily internal muscles and fascia, Mann asserts it's external muscles.

@razaar, you assert "IMO Old Mate is teaching a much earlier golf swing than what the current crop of tour players have been taught. Basically it is a backswing with a lateral turn where the hips slide away from the target with the right thigh and calf rotating towards the target."

How can a backswing, lateral or otherwise, result in the right hip sliding away from the target while the right thigh rotates toward it? The right thigh is connected to the right hip by a ball and socket connection at the top of the femur. So I'm lost on this one.

Btw: Is "Old Mate" Dr. Mann?

@WILDTHING, @razaar was talking about backswing, and ISTM you're talking about downswing, no?

To both of you: Perhaps I'm looking at this way too simplistically, but ISTM the swings, and the hip/pelvis/leg motions described by both Kelvin and Mann, the fact that a good swing is initiated from the "ground up," are essentially identical, differing in what muscles they each assert are responsible. Kelvin asserts it's primarily internal muscles and fascia, Mann asserts it's external muscles.

Firstly I wrote the hips slide not right hip slides. Imagine the hips moving laterally but the right knee and right hip rotated towards the ball. They arrive at a point where the hips rotate so that the bottom of the leg retains its address position. It is like the hips hit against an imaginary table top a few inches away from the right hip at address and then rotate ( the right internally).
I named The Good Dr. "Old Mate" because it is what we do Down Under. He just looks and acts as one to me.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Firstly I wrote the hips slide not right hip slides.

Yes, I know. But I could not picture what you were suggesting.

Imagine the hips moving laterally but the right knee and right hip rotated towards the ball.

Except a careful reading of Mann's article clearly states there is rarely any appreciable lateral hip movement in the swing mechanism he asserts is optimal, except some forward lateral movement in some players at or soon after ball strike. This is why I was having difficulty understanding the point you were making.

He not only diagrams this in his written paper but attempts to illustrate it in the video with that little hula-hoop-looking thing w/in the first ten minutes or so.

In fact, if I recall his paper correctly, Mann asserts optimal pelvic rotation occurs as if the pelvis was anchored to the ground via a single, central pivot point. Or am I conflating his paper with Kelvin's? I read them both w/in a day or so of one another, so that could be.

I named The Good Dr. "Old Mate" because it is what we do Down Under. He just looks and acts as one to me.

Ok. Respectfully suggest you refer to him as "Dr. Mann," or at least "Mann," to save readers the confusion?

 

[WILDTHING]

I don't think Dr Mann teaches a particular swing but he may advocate theoretical biomechanics that he thinks most pros do .

For example there is a book by Dr Ralph Mann (not related to Dr Jeff Mann) titled 'Swing Like a Pro' (page 81) , where they identified that many pros shifted their entire body laterally to the right (about 2 inches) at the same time in the takeaway ( I think that is what razaar is describing in his previous post ). The reason being to feel weight pressure being transferred to the right leg.

Duffer Seamus - sorry but I don't know what ISTM means . But yes you are correct , Dr Jeff Mann is basing his theories on the main muscles and not the fascia involvement.

Some background on Dr Mann:

"As a retired physician with a MD degree, and also a BSc degree with majors in anatomy and physiology, I believe that I know much more about human anatomy, human physiology and human biomechanics than all the famous professional golf instructors. I have used this knowledge to write a few review papers that describe different aspects of the biomechanics of the golf swing, and these review papers are listed in the "miscellaneous topics" section.

I am not a professional golf instructor, who is dogmatically trying to promote a single particular golf swing ideology. I am primarily a keen student of the golf swing and I am trying to understand all the different ways that a golfer can execute a full golf swing. My review papers are based on my personal understanding of different swing style patterns, with a major focus on detailing their different sets of biomechanical/mechanical principles"

He is basically advocating a 'rotate in a barrel' pelvic rotation, where the hips never bypass the knees.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I don't think Dr Mann teaches a particular swing but he may advocate theoretical biomechanics that he thinks most pros do .

Yes, exactly: He advocates (describes?) the biomechanics of what he feels to exemplify an optimal golf swing. This is the way I've attempted to represent what I understand to be what he is presenting. Perhaps I'm expressing myself poorly?

Duffer Seamus - sorry but I don't know what ISTM means

It Seems To Me

 

[WILDTHING]

Yes, exactly: He advocates (describes?) the biomechanics of what he feels to exemplify an optimal golf swing. This is the way I've attempted to represent what I understand to be what he is presenting. Perhaps I'm expressing myself poorly?


It Seems To Me

Your Mood icon says your in pain , so hope you get better soon. How's it going reading through the articles on Dr Manns website (bet its hard work)?

Note that its best to look at the newer ones because his old ones may be redundant (he realised errors in his earlier theories and written updated chapters). He was a fervent believer in TGM but has now dropped several important concepts . He also claims to be physics illiterate so finds the kinetic side of biomechanics more confusing than the kinematic aspects.

He doesn't have the time to edit and correct his older chapters but if you have any questions about which ones to read you can ask him yourself via his own forum website (or you can ask me and I'll try to answer them).

Home | Newton Golf Institute (proboards.com)

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Your Mood icon says your in pain , so hope you get better soon.

That's only because I resumed weight training this week, after a nine month hiatus. That's always painful, but it's a good kind of pain I'll probably be in some degree of fairly significant muscle soreness and stiffness until about the beginning of January.

How's it going reading through the articles on Dr Manns website (bet its hard work)?

I'm not reading all his stuff. Only the articles posted to this and the other thread.

Home | Newton Golf Institute (proboards.com)

^^^^^ This is Dr. Mann's site?

 

[WILDTHING]

That's only because I resumed weight training this week, after a nine month hiatus. That's always painful, but it's a good kind of pain I'll probably be in some degree of fairly significant muscle soreness and stiffness until about the beginning of January.


I'm not reading all his stuff. Only the articles posted to this and the other thread.


^^^^^ This is Dr. Mann's site?

Yes , its his forum website and you can ask questions as a guest without having to register .