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putting with the pin in pace of play

rollin said:
But its already been proven via many thousands of rolled balls that the amount of times it helps outweigh the amount of times it would ever hurt. Even a partially leaning flag was proven to be favorable and that actually seen an increase in helping more than hurting. The only rare time it was slightly favorable to remove it was when it leaned so far over that the ball could not fit between the pin and the hole edge. Also to your point.....a hole is round and has no sides. There is no such thing as sides. And so is a pin round. It also has no sides. It makes no difference which 'side" a ball rolls in from. Now...if you want to talk of coming into a hole from an of center line like when liping out or barely falling in from an edge thats one thing, but still the ball will just do what it normally would anyway and the pin would have no effect. As for balls hitting a pin?....again, its been proven via thousands of balls that the pin itself (even a leaning one) will help more times than it will hurt. The idea that a breaking putt is somehow an exception is just not so.
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That's all well and good. I've left the flag in during practice rounds many times in the past. I have had many putts hit the flag and miss. I will just stick with what I've done for the past 20 plus years.

Also, if I have a breaking putt and the ball is going to enter the hole from the side relative to where I am facing, I don't want anything possibly getting in the way if my speed isn't perfect.
 
My question is, why are people in such a hurry to play the hole anyway? Especially if the pace is slow & is being dictated by the people in front of you? If you can't go anywhere, why are you rushing to get off the green? The few added seconds it takes to pull the pin & putt out (in a foursome) really don't add up to a lot of time added in my opinion. I have the mentality like Justin Thomas has said .... "I just don't take myself seriously with the pin in."
We played yesterday and didn't take the pin out once. But we still played in the same amount of time ... 3 1/2 hours. The first hole, I didn't mind or really even think about the flag being in & made birdie to start out. But the rest of the day, spent grinding on the greens, trying to make birdies, was a struggle. Not putting blame on that but when I look at the line of a putt, especially those close in, inside say 10 feet or so, I like to visualize the line to & beyond the hole. The flag being in the hole just seems to be visually screwing me up. I don't know ... call me old school ... but I prefer the flag to come out. It doesn't really add that much more time to the round. I saw that first hand yesterday. Time will tell.
 
Honestly, plenty of people already putt with the pin in. I don't see it making much of a difference, except people can now leave it in and count the round for handicap purposes.

As for the scenario that one will have it out, then another will put it in, again, I don't see it making a huge difference. I've never depended on the pin for determining whether I can hit or not. I wait for people to be in their carts and moving. If I'm close enough to be hitting into the green, I'm certainly close enough to know how many more of the group in front need to putt out.

~Rock
 
radiman said:
I don't think pulling the pin adds much time to the process. I wouldn't want it in on a breaking putt. If it's straight on fine. But, I can see the pin deflecting a ball that was going to catch the side of the hole.
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so here is some time issues.
4 players are on the green and no one is too close to the pin. Basically all lag putting. Instead of everyone lining up their putt for ready golf, someone has to go tend the pin for another one or two players. Now that person couldn't get his putt lined up. he also has to navigate lines hopping and skipping tp get there, then when done has to navigate again to go place pin somewhere.
Thats just one small example. But in general if flag stays put nobody has to concern themselves with it at all no matter where anyone is at. everyone can just go to thier balls , get themselves ready, and when thier turn take their putt. Just the whole thing imo is somewhat problematic but only that we been doing it for so long we dont see it that way. This guys wants it out when he chips , another likes it back in when he has to chip, then another needs it tended while he putts, there are lines to worry about, where to place it,etc..
then we have the often practiced existing scenario of waiting for everyone to get on the green even if someone is chipping from closer place than another is putting just so the pin can be removed once instead of being pulled out then back in. leaving the pin alone all the time simply allows for everyone to play ready golf much smoother.

If the pin was something that was always in and thats the way it always was, I would bet my house that if we then hypothetically added a new rule stating the pin now had to be removed we would then see just how much time is truly wasted. we would all be complaining how ridiculous it is that someone has to go get the pin, tend it, place it back in for a chipper, pull it out for a putter, etc,etc.... honestly the pin has always been an unnecessary disturbance to flow whether we think it that way or not.

I really believe this can help things just go smoother. It just creates better flow. I dont think it fixes the pace problem but it does help. Ill bet that will help more than tee choice. But regardless its just an unnecessary thing that should have been changed a long time ago. Its just would be one less thing for everyone to concern themselves with. Everyone can just chip/pitch putt and play out when ready without anyone ever having to worry about the pin. There is already too much slow deliberate unnecessary greens antics going on as it is. Imo too many people need to just get over themselves. Removing any time at all that has anything to do with the pin can only help the flow of things. of course those who live in that world of slow deliberate unnecessary greens play will probably feel like they wont know what to do with their free time now...lol The pin thing has always been imo one of those unnecessary somewhat disruptive antics that never had to exist to begin with.
 
rollin said:
so here is some time issues.
4 players are on the green and no one is too close to the pin. Basically all lag putting. Instead of everyone lining up their putt for ready golf, someone has to go tend the pin for another one or two players. Now that person couldn't get his putt lined up. he also has to navigate lines hopping and skipping tp get there, then when done has to navigate again to go place pin somewhere.
Thats just one small example. But in general if flag stays put nobody has to concern themselves with it at all no matter where anyone is at. everyone can just go to thier balls , get themselves ready, and when thier turn take their putt. Just the whole thing imo is somewhat problematic but only that we been doing it for so long we dont see it that way. This guys wants it out when he chips , another likes it back in when he has to chip, then another needs it tended while he putts, there are lines to worry about, where to place it,etc..
then we have the often practiced existing scenario of waiting for everyone to get on the green even if someone is chipping from closer place than another is putting just so the pin can be removed once instead of being pulled out then back in. leaving the pin alone all the time simply allows for everyone to play ready golf much smoother.

If the pin was something that was always in and thats the way it always was, I would bet my house that if we then hypothetically added a new rule stating the pin now had to be removed we would then see just how much time is truly wasted. we would all be complaining how ridiculous it is that someone has to go get the pin, tend it, place it back in for a chipper, pull it out for a putter, etc,etc.... honestly the pin has always been an unnecessary disturbance to flow whether we think it that way or not.

I really believe this can help things just go smoother. It just creates better flow. I dont think it fixes the pace problem but it does help. Ill bet that will help more than tee choice. But regardless its just an unnecessary thing that should have been changed a long time ago. Its just would be one less thing for everyone to concern themselves with. Everyone can just chip/pitch putt and play out when ready without anyone ever having to worry about the pin. There is already too much slow deliberate unnecessary greens antics going on as it is. Imo too many people need to just get over themselves. Removing any time at all that has anything to do with the pin can only help the flow of things. of course those who live in that world of slow deliberate unnecessary greens play will probably feel like they wont know what to do with their free time now...lol The pin thing has always been imo one of those unnecessary somewhat disruptive antics that never had to exist to begin with.
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In my experience, and it could be the courses I play, that is rarely much of an issue. There only time I see someone asking to have the flag tended is when they can't see the hole. Which, rarely happens for us.

I just don't see enough benefit or time savings to change the way people have played on the greens for who knows how long.

Add to that, not every flag I see is the same width. There would have to be some standardization if there was a leave the flag in rule. Otherwise, there would be different results, benefits, cons from one course to the other, negating some of what the handicap system establishes.
 
Maybe I just play with people who tend to hit Greens in Regulation more often than others. :act-up:

Rather than having to wait for this person to chip or pitch on who is "away" at the time, leave the pin in .... long lag putter up next, tend the flag, then take the flag out. Versus just playing the way we have always played. I see no distinct advantage in doing so.
 
radiman said:
That's all well and good. I've left the flag in during practice rounds many times in the past. I have had many putts hit the flag and miss. I will just stick with what I've done for the past 20 plus years.

Also, if I have a breaking putt and the ball is going to enter the hole from the side relative to where I am facing, I don't want anything possibly getting in the way if my speed isn't perfect.
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well then respectfully :) there is no sense to debating the point. You obviously have closed your mind to the proven fact that (if anything) it would help you. Fwiw the testing/experimenting was done intentionally to simulate different speed putts too even hitting the pin (was the purpose of the experiment). I mean without hitting the flag therw ould been no point to the experiment, and in sync with the other results was helpful more than hurtful. You just dont want that tiny advantage then what can i say? Those times your putts hit the flag and missed may have ended up missing further away via rolling past the hole than they missed via the pin being hit. If your suggesting you just like it in thats one thing, but to suggest you would make less putts because of hinting it then you would be wrong as its already been proven.
 
I often play solo so I just leave the pin in. Not because of preference, but because I'm lazy, not keeping score, and just enjoying the game and the day.
 
radiman said:
I just don't see enough benefit or time savings to change the way people have played on the greens for who knows how long.
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hence the problem. there are going to be issues with this unless they make the rule 100% one way or the other.
Change is easy. In a short time i am 100% confident people would get use to it very quickly and it would be just like we've always played with the pin in all the time. For most folks id say even after just a round or two it would be n big deal anymore.
 
rollin said:
well then respectfully :) there is no sense to debating the point. You obviously have closed your mind to the proven fact that (if anything) it would help you. Fwiw the testing/experimenting was done intentionally to simulate different speed putts too even hitting the pin (was the purpose of the experiment). I mean without hitting the flag therw ould been no point to the experiment, and in sync with the other results was helpful more than hurtful. You just dont want that tiny advantage then what can i say? Those times your putts hit the flag and missed may have ended up missing further away via rolling past the hole than they missed via the pin being hit. If your suggesting you just like it in thats one thing, but to suggest you would make less putts because of hinting it then you would be wrong as its already been proven.
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I will say that I'm not ready to change the way I've played the game at this point. I am less concerned with a study and more concerned with my experiences. Like I said I have had situations where leaving the pin in seemed to have a negative effect.

I'm not 100% opposed to putting with the pin in. I just don't have any plans on changing at this point. I wouldn't say I'm closed minded. I just don't think my mind is going to be swayed by one study. Although, I would have to look into that study. I'd love to take a look at it if you can point me in the direction.
 
rollin said:
well then respectfully :) there is no sense to debating the point. You obviously have closed your mind to the proven fact that (if anything) it would help you. Fwiw the testing/experimenting was done intentionally to simulate different speed putts too even hitting the pin (was the purpose of the experiment). I mean without hitting the flag therw ould been no point to the experiment, and in sync with the other results was helpful more than hurtful. You just dont want that tiny advantage then what can i say? Those times your putts hit the flag and missed may have ended up missing further away via rolling past the hole than they missed via the pin being hit. If your suggesting you just like it in thats one thing, but to suggest you would make less putts because of hinting it then you would be wrong as its already been proven.
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It’s not the same for all flagsticks. Many flagsticks are now fiberglass and thinner diameter than the metal ones. It makes sense that these thinner flagsticks would help. I’m guessing Pelz did his tests on a calm day with fiberglass flagsticks. The course I grew up on had much thicker, metal flagsticks and they would definitely get in the way of the ball going in the hole, especially when the wind was blowing or the greenskeeper didn’t cut the hole square to the putting surface. There is little room for the ball to go in with these metal flagsticks and the metal is much more likely to reject a ball because it has a much different C.O.R than fiberglass. I had numerous instances the first few years that I played where a chip shot that was going to only go a few feet past the hole strike the metal flagstick and bounce out. I will be taking the flagstick out when they are the thicker, metal type which are still around at some of the courses I play. On short putts a blowing flag on a windy day ` will also be a distraction as would somebody tending the flag on a 4 foot putt. We have many windy days here in Minnesota so I’ll be taking the flag out on short putts most of the time.
 
radiman said:
I will say that I'm not ready to change the way I've played the game at this point. I am less concerned with a study and more concerned with my experiences. Like I said I have had situations where leaving the pin in seemed to have a negative effect.

I'm not 100% opposed to putting with the pin in. I just don't have any plans on changing at this point. I wouldn't say I'm closed minded. I just don't think my mind is going to be swayed by one study. Although, I would have to look into that study. I'd love to take a look at it if you can point me in the direction.
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After a quick search, are you referring to the Dave Pelz article from 2007? I'd like to see more data from it personally. It also doesn't make mention of side hill putts. It seems they tested flat, uphill, and downhill putts unless I'm missing something.
 
I see the flag rule slowing things down due to the multiple desires of in or out for their putts.
I for one will want it out.

The other thing is it will also cause a lot more damage to cup edges due to the morons that use their putter heads to pull the ball out of the hole.
Now that the flag will be in there, they will cause even more damage to the hole than their norm.
Bend over and pick the ball out of the hole with your hand or get a suction cup added to the end of your putter grip. :angry:
 
tahoebum said:
It’s not the same for all flagsticks. Many flagsticks are now fiberglass and thinner diameter than the metal ones. It makes sense that these thinner flagsticks would help. I’m guessing Pelz did his tests on a calm day with fiberglass flagsticks. The course I grew up on had much thicker, metal flagsticks and they would definitely get in the way of the ball going in the hole, especially when the wind was blowing or the greenskeeper didn’t cut the hole square to the putting surface. There is little, if any room for the ball to got in with these metal flagsticks and the metal is much more likely to reject a ball because it has a much different C.O.R than fiberglass. I will be taking the flagstick out when they are the thicker, metal type which are still around at some of the courses I play. On short putts a blowing flag will also be a big distraction as would somebody tending the flag on a 4 foot putt. We have many windy days here in Minnesota so I’ll be taking the flag out on short putts most of the time.
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A fellow Minnesotan! I'm in Moorhead myself and if you aren't playing in the wind here, you're not playing golf that day.
 
putting with the pin in pace of play

radiman said:
A fellow Minnesotan! I'm in Moorhead myself and if you aren't playing in the wind here, you're not playing golf that day.
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It seems like every afternoon is windy here. I just moved back after 20 years in California and my home club is Minnesota Valley on the bluffs above the Minnesota river. It’s almost always over 10 mph in the summer by noon. Fargo/Moorhead makes it into the top 10 windiest cities in the country!!

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tahoebum said:
It seems like every afternoon is windy here. I just moved back after 20 years in California and my home club is Minnesota Valley on the bluffs above the Minnesota river. It’s almost always over 10 mph in the summer by noon. Fargo/Moorhead makes it into the top 10 windiest cities in the country!!

7e17d802458f9b636a20895f122c4c16.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Lol, I didn't know that! Even more depressing. I feel like I would be pretty happy if the wind was only 12mph. Seems like we're always looking at 15-20 when I play. Sometimes worse.
 
I hate the wind more than rain, more than cold, and even more than removing flag sticks :)
 
rollin said:
I hate the wind more than rain, more than cold, and even more than removing flag sticks :)
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You'd think a guy would get used to it after dealing with it for 20+ years. Not the case.
 
fwiw to those unfamiliar here is some of Pelz's study/research quoted in green below. This should really answer most doubts for most scenarios people are mentioning.


Each test was run at three different speeds: On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, six feet past, and nine feet past. Each test also included putts that approached the target at different parts of the hole: dead center; left- and right-center of the pin; left and right edge of the pin. Finally, the tests were run, first on level greens, then on ones that sloped sharply uphill and downhill. (The speeds remained consistent, but because the slope changed, the balls, if they missed, would finish considerably farther away on downhill putts and closer on uphillers. But it is the speed, not the final distance from the hole, that matters.)

TruRoller launched thousands of “shots” at the hole, an equal number with the flagstick in and out, on a number of different greens, at five different parts of the hole. Once that was done, PGA Tour veteran Tom Jenkins, the former lead instructor at my short-game schools, did his best to duplicate those tests. Although Tom couldn’t control his putts as precisely as the TruRoller, I felt it was important to compare machine and human results. Tom hit more than a thousand putts, the results of which supported the TruRoller’s results.

Perhaps most surprising, when the flagstick leans either slightly toward the golfer or away, the odds of it helping to keep the ball in the hole increase:

With the flagstick leaning away from the golfer, the hole becomes effectively larger; when the flagstick leans toward the golfer, the ball rebounds downward, again helping shots find the hole.

Only in the most obvious case, when the flagstick is leaning so far toward the golfer that there isn’t enough room for the ball, is leaving the flagstick in a bad idea.

Even if you don’t hit the flagstick dead center, it still will aid you.

The flagstick will help you make more putts unless it is leaning severely toward you or it’s so windy that it is moving and might knock your ball away.
 
I never take the pin out when I'm by myself, so I love the new rule.

Of all the putts I have taken over the last three years, I can remember only 2 that hit the flagstick and bounced out. So 2 out of a 1000.
 
radiman said:
You'd think a guy would get used to it after dealing with it for 20+ years. Not the case.
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lol...i just find it annoying. Not so much as for playing the game itself but just the constant annoyance on the body. of course when hot and humid I desire a breeze. But anything real substantial its like one consistent giant mosquito that wont go away. Just bothersome whether i was playing golf or doing just about anything.

yet if im in a hot place i will sit near the fan so go figure...lol
 
rollin said:
lol...i just find it annoying. Not so much as for playing the game itself but just the constant annoyance on the body. of course when hot and humid I desire a breeze. But anything real substantial its like one consistent giant mosquito that wont go away. Just bothersome whether i was playing golf or doing just about anything.

yet if im in a hot place i will sit near the fan so go figure...lol
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Some days, I can play beautifully in the wind. Flighting my shots and judging curvature. Other days, it's a complete guessing game. I'm over shooting greens and missing off the planet. I guess, mentally exhausted is a good way to describe it.
 
What I see slowing down play are players who think they have to take as long to putt as a professional at a tournament. They watch the pros look at every angle, consult their 'book', talk to their caddie, etc. and then finally get down to actually reading the putt and putting. Assuming there is more than one player the one farthest from the pin can easily take out the pin quickly w/o causing any delay. Our local muni has NO marshals so it's a free for all after teeing off.
 
Our group played the pin in all day. Seems a faster pace of green play. Me likie.......
 
lanoxrehab said:
I never take the pin out when I'm by myself, so I love the new rule.

Of all the putts I have taken over the last three years, I can remember only 2 that hit the flagstick and bounced out. So 2 out of a 1000.
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I did this before the rule .... especially by myself

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