HBO Future of golf!

[tgtt]

Is most time spent on the greens on tour? Easiest place to accelerate but I wonder how many putts would be missed.

I think simply making it a mark once only and putt until finish would make a significant improvement.

 

[wubears71]

I don't like that at all. If a course made me play at a different time than my dad and brother, I would stop playing that course. If every course did that, I would find another past time to enjoy with my kin folk.

Then play at the slower designated tee times. I'm just looking for a way to let the speedy golfers get through 18 holes. If your Dad and Brother can play a quick round of golf then by all means play in one of the designated "fast" tee times.

 

[stevie-a]

But making it faster does attract new golfers. Experienced players need to move faster. So do newcomers. Courses enforcing rules is a big start.

We are obviously spinning our wheels here.... While the idea of a round taking less time will attract new players is a great premise, the reality still remains that needing additional shots (beyond par) to get from tee to the hole is going to take more time. Rules enforcement may help pace of play, but possibly at the cost of enjoyment for the new player. "Just take a double bogey and pick the ball up because we have to stay with the pace of play...."

 

[HBirdman80]

Self enforcement and participation/encouragement by experienced players is important. A buddy of mine is just learning to play, he's not very good. When we play with him the rule is ready golf, and as soon as he starts falling behind the experienced guys he picks up, sometimes he sits out the rest of the hole and sometimes he walks to the green to chip while the rest hit approaches. Some holes he needs to pick up, others he doesn't.

To balance that out, we make sure to spend time with him just hitting range balls with the goal of his game improving to the point he doesn't need to pick up.

You shouldn't need a marshal telling you to speed up, common courtesy dictates that you hit or beat the course posted time.

 

[Darren37]

Not to mention some starter sets can be had brand new for less than $300

Sure can. I bought my starter kit for $167 on Amazon last year with bag. Just had to buy a SW which I did for $20 Pinemeadows.

 

[Speedliner]

There are two issues to resolve also...

1) increasing throughput at the course. Keeping players playing and enabled to play more often. That's the speed issue.

2) getting new players into the game. Speed is an issue here as well, but it's bigger than just round time. Golf needs some "fun" to get kids interested. There is more competition for their time these days and golf is more difficult to enter than many sports.

Last comment is I think golf is also suffering from the "have" and "have not" gap that is increasing as our economy struggles. Fewer people are spending more on expensive equipment, so industry revenues still look high compared to historical numbers, but course throughput and revenue is down.

Yet, I still can't get a weekend tee time before 10AM no matter how quickly I call when the windo opens.

 

[blugold]

Then play at the slower designated tee times. I'm just looking for a way to let the speedy golfers get through 18 holes. If your Dad and Brother can play a quick round of golf then by all means play in one of the designated "fast" tee times.

I'm not sure I'm understanding. Are bad golfers slow? Because they're not. Slow golfers are slow. Separating tee times will push people away. Golf is already has an image problem. Add segregation to it, eeeesh

 

[JB]

We are obviously spinning our wheels here.... While the idea of a round taking less time will attract new players is a great premise, the reality still remains that needing additional shots (beyond par) to get from tee to the hole is going to take more time. Rules enforcement may help pace of play, but possibly at the cost of enjoyment for the new player. "Just take a double bogey and pick the ball up because we have to stay with the pace of play...."

Again that is an assumption. More strokes does not equal more time unless all other things are equal and they are not and never will be.

I will just bow out of this one on this thought. The idea that newcomers are the slow golfers is flat out wrong. Bad golf is not the reason for slow play. Slow golfers are and it has nothing to do with skill level.

 

[jitzy]

I truly think everything everyone is saying here is all valid and important but I really believe the ONLY thing thats gonna get golf going like it was 10 years ago is another Tiger Woods. I know Mclroy is great and all and they keep trying to push him onto us like he's the next Tiger but he's just not. Until another American player comes out and is larger than the sport itself golf is gonna just level itself out.

 

[Darren37]

I'm a beginner and I'm pretty average to fast on the course pace wise. I don't think too hard about what it is I'm trying to do. I just do it (no pun) when it's a bad shot then I walk up to it and hit it again and keep it moving. I also learned not to take too long to look for the ball that sailed over to the next course or got lost in wooded area. I do however like to take my time on the driving range. I especially see nothing wrong with that when practicing.

 

[Darren37]

I truly think everything everyone is saying here is all valid and important but I really believe the ONLY thing thats gonna get golf going like it was 10 years ago is another Tiger Woods. I know Mclroy is great and all and they keep trying to push him onto us like he's the next Tiger but he's just not. Until another American player comes out and is larger than the sport itself golf is gonna just level itself out.

Good point! Tiger was huge for advertisement because he was all the talk in sports. No one has come close since.

Edit: well Rickie Fowler perhaps but still......not close to Tiger

 

[wubears71]

I'm not sure I'm understanding. Are bad golfers slow? Because they're not. Slow golfers are slow. Separating tee times will push people away. Golf is already has an image problem. Add segregation to it, eeeesh

Sorry, I'm not clear. That is not what I'm saying.

If one wants/needs to play a long round - i.e. the good golfer that wants to play honors, check the break of the green both forward and behind the pin, not pickup the 6" gimmie and take 6 practice swings before addressing the ball or the not so good golfer who doesn't want to be pressured on time or the golfer that is out there to muck it up with his or her friends while drinking a six pack that doesn't want the pressure to speed it up - then play the "slow" tee times - which would be any other tee time not designated as "fast" or "speed".

All the speed tee time would be is designated tee times like the first few tee times in the morning for people that play quickly. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be good, but it would be for the golfers that want to be done in less than 3 hours. It's the ones that hits a ball into the woods or into the tall grass/weeds and just accepts that the ball is lost instead of spending a few minutes looking for the ball.

Where this is coming from is a couple of clubs I play at let these slow, old couples and foursomes go off 1st thing in the morning, thus preventing anyone from playing a quick round. One guy is 83 years old and one hell of a golfer, but he refuses to play ready golf and playing through is pointless because there are a few groups that take that first tee time every day. They pay the annual unlimited fee and milk it for all it's worth. When one complains about it, the answer is "well they are regulars to it's okay." No it's not! I would gladly pay a premium for those tee times because I love the courses, but the courses refuses to do it despite my suggestion out of fear of pissing off the old farts that have been playing this way since the beginning of time. There is a reason no one books tee times for a couple hours after these groups go off because after one experience playing behind them, you know not to make the mistake again to book a tee time right after them.

In short, don't make every tee time's pace of play the same. Designate the early tee times a x hours pace of play and then the later tee times y hours pace of play and strictly enforce the "Speed" tee times. That's all I want to see. Again, I would pay the premium if I could be certain that I would be off the course in the designated "speed" Pace of play time.

 

[wubears71]

I truly think everything everyone is saying here is all valid and important but I really believe the ONLY thing thats gonna get golf going like it was 10 years ago is another Tiger Woods. I know Mclroy is great and all and they keep trying to push him onto us like he's the next Tiger but he's just not. Until another American player comes out and is larger than the sport itself golf is gonna just level itself out.

AMEN! You nailed it. Poker became popular when TV turned the players into Rock Stars. Tiger was the Rock Star of the golf world. While Mclroy may be the next Tiger Woods from a technical standpoint, he's too vanilla (boring) to really drive the market. Plus, Tiger was a lot like Lebron - we all knew his name before he even set foot on the pro tour.

 

[tgtt]

Sorry, I'm not clear. That is not what I'm saying.

If one wants/needs to play a long round - i.e. the good golfer that wants to play honors, check the break of the green both forward and behind the pin, not pickup the 6" gimmie and take 6 practice swings before addressing the ball or the not so good golfer who doesn't want to be pressured on time or the golfer that is out there to muck it up with his or her friends while drinking a six pack that doesn't want the pressure to speed it up - then play the "slow" tee times - which would be any other tee time not designated as "fast" or "speed".

All the speed tee time would be is designated tee times like the first few tee times in the morning for people that play quickly. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be good, but it would be for the golfers that want to be done in less than 3 hours. It's the ones that hits a ball into the woods or into the tall grass/weeds and just accepts that the ball is lost instead of spending a few minutes looking for the ball.

Where this is coming from is a couple of clubs I play at let these slow, old couples and foursomes go off 1st thing in the morning, thus preventing anyone from playing a quick round. One guy is 83 years old and one hell of a golfer, but he refuses to play ready golf and playing through is pointless because there are a few groups that take that first tee time every day. They pay the annual unlimited fee and milk it for all it's worth. When one complains about it, the answer is "well they are regulars to it's okay." No it's not! I would gladly pay a premium for those tee times because I love the courses, but the courses refuses to do it despite my suggestion out of fear of pissing off the old farts that have been playing this way since the beginning of time. There is a reason no one books tee times for a couple hours after these groups go off because after one experience playing behind them, you know not to make the mistake again to book a tee time right after them.

In short, don't make every tee time's pace of play the same. Designate the early tee times a x hours pace of play and then the later tee times y hours pace of play and strictly enforce the "Speed" tee times. That's all I want to see. Again, I would pay the premium if I could be certain that I would be off the course in the designated "speed" Pace of play time.

That's backwards, IMO. Everyone is gonna get sick of me saying it but, again, I think we should be charged by the hour and give everyone an incentive to play faster and, as such, those paying extra are the ones that don't care about pace. I know, I know, logistics would be a nightmare but in my dream world it would work.

 

[blugold]

That's backwards, IMO. Everyone is gonna get sick of me saying it but, again, I think we should be charged by the hour and give everyone an incentive to play faster and, as such, those paying extra are the ones that don't care about pace. I know, I know, logistics would be a nightmare but in my dream world it would work.

A faster golfer doesn't cost a course less in up keep. That's why a pay by the hour incentive won't work IMO.

 

[tgtt]

A faster golfer doesn't cost a course less in up keep. That's why a pay by the hour incentive won't work IMO.

Allows more tee times...

 

[JB]

A faster golfer doesn't cost a course less in up keep. That's why a pay by the hour incentive won't work IMO.

But It does allow more golfers on the course which in turn is more profitable.

 

[blugold]

Allows more tee times...

It doesn't.

You would run into an overbooked course.

 

[stevie-a]

Again that is an assumption. More strokes does not equal more time unless all other things are equal and they are not and never will be.

I will just bow out of this one on this thought. The idea that newcomers are the slow golfers is flat out wrong. Bad golf is not the reason for slow play. Slow golfers are and it has nothing to do with skill level.

Rather simple to prove with all things being equal, as you've stated. Player 1 is a scratch golfer, so we'll use 72 as his stroke total. Player 2 is a new player who shoots 110-120..so we'll use 115 as his stroke total. Both players take 60 seconds to go thru their pre-shot routine and to strike the ball.

Player 1's total shot time: 72 strokes x 60 seconds = 4,320 seconds / 60 seconds per minute = 72 minutes in total shot time.

Player 2's total shot time: 115 strokes x 60 seconds = 6,900 seconds / 60 seconds per minute = 115 minutes in total shot time

This is a difference of 43 minutes. Neither player is playing any faster than the other, simply going thru their motions of playing a round at their respective skill levels -- and one will take nearly an hour longer to finish a round.


*I'm not suggesting a player take 60 seconds to play their shot, I used that simply as a round figure for calculation purposes. At 30 seconds per shot, the difference is still 21 minutes.

This doesn't take into consideration the prospects of having to look for a ball in the rough, trees, etc...as we are keeping all things equal, but in reality, a new player is going to spray the ball all over the course whereas a good player will keep the ball in play for the most part. Those other aspects are only going to expand the difference between the amount of time differing skill levels will take to play the game.

 

[wubears71]

Allows more tee times...

Here is the point that I cannot figure out. There is not a single course around me except for the City's municipal course that is consistently booked from the 1st tee time of the day to the last tee time of the day. However, every course I play at has multiple blocks of tee times per day where it gets all backed up. Instead of having tee times at every 7 minutes, why not change the tee times to every 14 minutes. The course would have the same number of golfers but would lessen the chance of it backing up. It's one thing if every tee time is booked consistently but it's another story if on any given day, less than 50% of the tee times are booked. Why do courses bunch everyone up right off the start when there isn't demand to do so?

 

[ForTheLovOfGolf]

One more thing to point out, the cost of equipment that people are discussing being too high, is the same price as it was during the boom and years prior.

I've been gone for most of the day and didn't realize how this thread took off so I'm still making my way through it.

Please don't get me wrong, the price of clubs has NEVER changed. I've been playing golf for over 20 years now and they were the same price as they are today. I'm not complaining about the prices what I was trying to throw out there was people who think about taking up the game, or tried it with a rental set go to a sporting goods store having no idea the actual cost of start up. Yes, we all understand you can buy a used set or a cheap set of clubs but walk into any sporting goods store and the name brand drivers are all up front, for good reason. This sport has always been something you have to invest in. Either in clubs or to play, I just thought it was interesting how it wasn't mentioned as part of the possible reason for where the state of the game is. IMO I don't think people understand the cost, just as I wouldn't understand the true cost to start hunting, fishing, or playing hockey with the top of the line equipment.

There are so many reasons the game is where it is and the things that could be done to change it. I would say if it's not broken don't fix it but clearly something is broken and we need to get people back to being interested in the sport. I personally don't ever want to see how the game is played (hole size) changed and I feel very strongly that the growth of this game is in the next generation. There are some programs out there for kids but nothing like it was when I was a kid. Where I grew up there was a summer camp at every course around but where I live now it's hard to find a camp for my kids to get in. I understand there's a large cost for the course to run these programs, but I truly think the next generation is going to have a huge impact on what happens in this game.

I understand everyone is entitled to their own opinions, mine are above, and someone like yourself who is around the game day in and day out have a better understanding of where the game is and what needs to be done. For me reports like this are very sad! This isn't just a game you go out and play with four other people. It's about spending 4 quality hours with people you care about and love, it's about playing with strangers who may become life long friends, it's about learning respect, manners, and etiquette, it may be one of the best places to conduct an important business meeting. People don't understand it's not just a game, it's a place where you will learn life lessons that will be with you for forever!!

 

[Speedliner]

Allows more tee times...

If you have control of your time. Still subject to pace if those in front. Assumption is all will play faster to pay less. All may not be capable.

Might also make golf more expensive for beginners who spend a lot of time looking for balls.

Good for me, not sure about golf. Are there examples anywhere? Would be good to see how it's working somewhere, but if it's just can isolated course instead of a Region, the data probably wouldn't be meaningful.

 

[HBirdman80]

Here is the point that I cannot figure out. There is not a single course around me except for the City's municipal course that is consistently booked from the 1st tee time of the day to the last tee time of the day. However, every course I play at has multiple blocks of tee times per day where it gets all backed up. Instead of having tee times at every 7 minutes, why not change the tee times to every 14 minutes. The course would have the same number of golfers but would lessen the chance of it backing up. It's one thing if every tee time is booked consistently but it's another story if on any given day, less than 50% of the tee times are booked. Why do courses bunch everyone up right off the start when there isn't demand to do so?

Probably because there is demand to do so. Some tee times are more desirable than others. And other courses would make tee times spaced closer to offer the more desirable tee times to players who couldn't get it at a course with more spaced times.

Plus, slow players are slow, stretching out tee times won't help that.

 

[JB]

Rather simple to prove with all things being equal, as you've stated. Player 1 is a scratch golfer, so we'll use 72 as his stroke total. Player 2 is a new player who shoots 110-120..so we'll use 115 as his stroke total. Both players take 60 seconds to go thru their pre-shot routine and to strike the ball.

Player 1's total shot time: 72 strokes x 60 seconds = 4,320 seconds / 60 seconds per minute = 72 minutes in total shot time.

Player 2's total shot time: 115 strokes x 60 seconds = 6,900 seconds / 60 seconds per minute = 115 minutes in total shot time

This is a difference of 43 minutes. Neither player is playing any faster than the other, simply going thru their motions of playing a round at their respective skill levels -- and one will take nearly an hour longer to finish a round.


*I'm not suggesting a player take 60 seconds to play their shot, I used that simply as a round figure for calculation purposes. At 30 seconds per shot, the difference is still 21 minutes.

This doesn't take into consideration the prospects of having to look for a ball in the rough, trees, etc...as we are keeping all things equal, but in reality, a new player is going to spray the ball all over the course whereas a good player will keep the ball in play for the most part. Those other aspects are only going to expand the difference between the amount of time differing skill levels will take to play the game.

Seriously? That is like me saying here are two examples.
Newcomer gets up and swings. 10 seconds times 120 shots.
Good player lasers, walks around every putt, wipes grips off before and after each shot. 90 seconds for 72 shots.

There is a reason that on Tour the play is slower than 4.5 hours....Because good players are just as slow or slower than bad players.
The idea that because one takes more strokes, they are slower is just not accurate. To give you an example. Find any scratch player you would like. I guarantee I am faster than them on the golf course without changing the pace I normally play at.

 

[wubears71]

Probably because there is demand to do so. Some tee times are more desirable than others. And other courses would make tee times spaced closer to offer the more desirable tee times to players who couldn't get it at a course with more spaced times.

Plus, slow players are slow, stretching out tee times won't help that.

Well dang. There goes my solution. Good point.