Official MLB Baseball Thread

[Smallville]

I gotta agree that they haven't got a good track record since the early 80s developing players and making good decisions in free agency. Actually, they have never had much good luck with free agents. Of course, they can't go after the really good ones.

 

[TheGasman]

You never watched/cheered for a team without a decent closer have you? There is nothing worse than seeing a guy come in that no one has any faith in. You hold your breath through the whole inning. It isn't fun that's for sure.

Haha, the worst thing a fan can hear is " Closer by Committee".

I gotta agree that they haven't got a good track record since the early 80s developing players and making good decisions in free agency. Actually, they have never had much good luck with free agents. Of course, they can't go after the really good ones.

It seems to be turning around Smalls. They have kids like Moustakas who should be special and Hosmer coming up. Now if Aviles and Gordon step up, you guys might have a solid team over the next few years. You have an Ace to lean on.

Did you see that the Dodgers released Angel Berroa today? Man, what happened to that guy. He was a great clubhouse guy but he hasnt been able to cut it the last few years.

 

[Sunday_Hacker]

being a Rays fan I can agree it sucks not having a true closer...

 

[NikeGolf]

I don't think having Winn as a backup is anything special I think Delmon Young as a backup is a better option.

What I highlighted in bold is merely your opinion.

Maybe you need to let it go Nike, you have not been right on this post up to this point. Maybe you need to gather facts before shooting your mouth off. Opinions are always fine and I do respect yours, but when you say things that just are not true and try to use that as a basis of an arguement then I gotta correct you and show you the actual facts.

No, I wouldn't say I've been wrong about anything. We can argue about individual players all night long.

You want to say the Yankees don't have players? Or you want to say the Yankees are similar to other teams?

I just have to throw out one figure:

200 million plus in payroll. That's 70 million more than the next team on the list. 70 million more! There are a few teams who don't even have a payroll of 70 million.

Don't kid yourself. You may think you're winning the argument but you're just trying to cover the real picture up w/ some spray paint.

The Yankees are what they are. Let's not try to hide it.

 

[TheGasman]

200 million plus in payroll. That's 70 million more than the next team on the list. 70 million more! There are a few teams who don't even have a payroll of 70 million.

.

Its not like they won every championship in the decade. 2000 and 2009, there were plenty of teams in between. Plus think of teams like the Rockies, Tigers, Rays, Astros and so on that made it to the dance. There has definitely been more parody in MLB then the NBA in the last 10 years and its about the same as the NFL.

 

[NikeGolf]

Its not like they won every championship in the decade. 2000 and 2009, there were plenty of teams in between. Plus think of teams like the Rockies, Tigers, Rays, Astros and so on that made it to the dance. There has definitely been more parody in MLB then the NBA in the last 10 years and its about the same as the NFL.

What? About the same as the NFL?

The Rays and Rockies are ONE example of ONE year. The Tigers have a big payroll, and they're always fighting for the division against my Twins every year.

I can't remember the last time the Astros did anything, but they're a middle of the road team as far as payroll is concerned.

Look, I don't think anyone is saying that IF you spend a ton of money, that you're guaranteed to win.

However, it certainly helps. And add to that, look at the teams over the past decade who have won the divisions or the World Series. Most of them are big payroll teams.

The Yankees are obviously allowed to spend how much they want. There is no rule against it.

But, by how much they take advantage and how much they contribute to the largest problem in baseball is what I don't like about the Yankees.

I hear Yankee fans cheering and cheering about last season's championship. Shoving it in the faces of everyone who will listen.

To them I say: "Well, you have a payroll of over 200 million. I would hope you win it all."

I NEVER could stand the Yankees.

 

[Spank818]

What? About the same as the NFL?

The Rays and Rockies are ONE example of ONE year. The Tigers have a big payroll, and they're always fighting for the division against my Twins every year.

I can't remember the last time the Astros did anything, but they're a middle of the road team as far as payroll is concerned.

Look, I don't think anyone is saying that IF you spend a ton of money, that you're guaranteed to win.

However, it certainly helps. And add to that, look at the teams over the past decade who have won the divisions or the World Series. Most of them are big payroll teams.

The Yankees are obviously allowed to spend how much they want. There is no rule against it.

But, by how much they take advantage and how much they contribute to the largest problem in baseball is what I don't like about the Yankees.

I hear Yankee fans cheering and cheering about last season's championship. Shoving it in the faces of everyone who will listen.

To them I say: "Well, you have a payroll of over 200 million. I would hope you win it all."

I NEVER could stand the Yankees.

Astros 2009 payroll: $102,996,414 right behind the Phillies who made the WS. So you are incorrect there.

I didn't know there was a scale on how much any team can take advantage of the system in place and they're not the sole contributor of "the problem in baseball". Heck your Twins increased their payroll $9 mil last year and the Yankees actually reduced their $8 mil. So who's adding there?

Yes we have a payroll of $200 million. We don't need other people to tell us that we better win because EVERY Yankee fan's expectation is to win the World Series year in and year out. It's the same philosophy that ownership has and that's why ownership dumps so much money into making a winner. You obviously don't understand how brutal NY fans are with their expectations. We don't need people mouthing off about pressure to win in our face... we live in it, we embrace it, and we conquer it.

I would like to see what your reaction would be if the Twins win the whole thing. I wonder if you would shove the whole "We are (to use your terms) a mid market team defying the odds against the big, bad, spenders of MLB and yea for us that we can win without spending money" argument. I wonder if (to use your terms again) shove it in our faces.

I actually kind of like the Twins. It's that feel good story, Field of Dreams kind of feeling. I think your coach is one of the best if not the best in baseball. It's sad that you have to resort to such tactics to get a rise out of folks. Personally, I would never stoop to such a level. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

 

[JB]

Its not like they won every championship in the decade. 2000 and 2009, there were plenty of teams in between. Plus think of teams like the Rockies, Tigers, Rays, Astros and so on that made it to the dance. There has definitely been more parody in MLB then the NBA in the last 10 years and its about the same as the NFL.

Your kidding right? With the smallest playoffs in sports, I think we have seen a grand total of 1 year out of the last decade that the team with the highest payroll did not make the playoffs. Out of those 4 teams you mentioned, how many did anything for more than 2 years.
Rockies - Cut Payroll
Astros - Cut Payroll
Rays - Cut payroll and Yankees increased payroll
Tigers - Cut Payroll

So lets not pretend that you cannot correlate spending with wins. Sure big teams make bad decisions. But there is absolutely no argument against the fact that the higher the payroll the better CHANCE you have of winning. Is it against the rules, no, but to argue that the small market teams have the same chance year after year is absurd.

Comparing it to the NFL is absolutely ridiculous. The market means nothing because every team gets the same amount and can spend the same amount. Its called fair play. Then it truly does result in making good decisions and not hiding bad ones by spending more.

Perfect example is Carl Pavano. Had he been signed by any mid or small market team, they would have been destroyed for 5 years. Its not a level playing field. It does not have to be according tot he rules. But lets not dance around and call it fair. I dont think anybody thinks its fair in the game at all.

 

[NikeGolf]

Astros 2009 payroll: $102,996,414 right behind the Phillies who made the WS. So you are incorrect there.

I didn't know there was a scale on how much any team can take advantage of the system in place and they're not the sole contributor of "the problem in baseball". Heck your Twins increased their payroll $9 mil last year and the Yankees actually reduced their $8 mil. So who's adding there?

Yes we have a payroll of $200 million. We don't need other people to tell us that we better win because EVERY Yankee fan's expectation is to win the World Series year in and year out. It's the same philosophy that ownership has and that's why ownership dumps so much money into making a winner. You obviously don't understand how brutal NY fans are with their expectations. We don't need people mouthing off about pressure to win in our face... we live in it, we embrace it, and we conquer it.

I would like to see what your reaction would be if the Twins win the whole thing. I wonder if you would shove the whole "We are (to use your terms) a mid market team defying the odds against the big, bad, spenders of MLB and yea for us that we can win without spending money" argument. I wonder if (to use your terms again) shove it in our faces.

I actually kind of like the Twins. It's that feel good story, Field of Dreams kind of feeling. I think your coach is one of the best if not the best in baseball. It's sad that you have to resort to such tactics to get a rise out of folks. Personally, I would never stoop to such a level. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

I'm not "stooping" anywhere. Trust me, many baseball fans feel and think the way I do about the Yankees. Believe me on that.

And are you really trying to make a point about spending money when the Twins increased payroll and the Yankees decreased? Do you really want to go there?

Hummm. Twins are under 100 million. Yankees, are over 200 million.

Oh, but the Twins increased payroll by a whole 9 million, and the Yankees decreased by a whole 8. So I guess it's all even now, huh?

Pffft.

And about the Astros. What was I wrong about? I said they were a mid market team, and they are. I also said I don't recall the last time they did anything. I also specifically said just because you spend money doesn't guarantee a good team. So, again, what was I wrong about?

The Twins have a lot of fans, and it's cool to see. They are one of the few teams left who still do things the right way and find a way to be consistently competitive in an unbalanced league.

I'm just relieved the Twins stepped up to spend some money to sign Mauer.

If not, by mid season we'd be talking about who we'd get in a trade from the Yankees for him. Because we all know they'd be the team on the phone trying to get him.

I mean, what other team could have the HUGE contracts of ARod, Texeira, Sabathia, Burnett and Jeter and still be able to get a guy like Mauer?

I'll let the Yankee fans answer that one.

 

[NikeGolf]

Your kidding right? With the smallest playoffs in sports, I think we have seen a grand total of 1 year out of the last decade that the team with the highest payroll did not make the playoffs. Out of those 4 teams you mentioned, how many did anything for more than 2 years.
Rockies - Cut Payroll
Astros - Cut Payroll
Rays - Cut payroll and Yankees increased payroll
Tigers - Cut Payroll

So lets not pretend that you cannot correlate spending with wins. Sure big teams make bad decisions. But there is absolutely no argument against the fact that the higher the payroll the better CHANCE you have of winning. Is it against the rules, no, but to argue that the small market teams have the same chance year after year is absurd.

Comparing it to the NFL is absolutely ridiculous. The market means nothing because every team gets the same amount and can spend the same amount. Its called fair play. Then it truly does result in making good decisions and not hiding bad ones by spending more.

Perfect example is Carl Pavano. Had he been signed by any mid or small market team, they would have been destroyed for 5 years. Its not a level playing field. It does not have to be according tot he rules. But lets not dance around and call it fair. I dont think anybody thinks its fair in the game at all.

I would have echoed what you said here in the response to his post, but I just didn't feel like it.

Plus, I knew you'd take care of it later anyway.

 

[TheGasman]

Your kidding right? With the smallest playoffs in sports, I think we have seen a grand total of 1 year out of the last decade that the team with the highest payroll did not make the playoffs. .

Im not talking about payroll as much as I am different amounts of teams in the finals. I could be wrong, Ill add it up in a bit.

 

[TheGasman]

And about the Astros. What was I wrong about? I said they were a mid market team, and they are. I also said I don't recall the last time they did anything.

Were you watching baseball a few years ago? They made it to the NLCS 2 years in a row in 2004 and 2005 and made it to the World Series. Remember when Pujols ruined Lidge?

 

[JB]

Im not talking about payroll as much as I am different amounts of teams in the finals. I could be wrong, Ill add it up in a bit.

I have said that before. Many teams make a run at the series. The problem has been and still is, that as soon as they make that run, their team gets picked apart by the larger teams or the larger teams just increase payroll to get better.

Like I said, all one has to do is look at the playoffs overall and see that the team with the highest payroll has been in the playoffs all but I think 1 year in over a decade.

 

[JB]

Were you watching baseball a few years ago? They made it to the NLCS 2 years in a row in 2004 and 2005 and made it to the World Series. Remember when Pujols ruined Lidge?

They had a solid team then, but look at the stats of payroll. Nobody on their team at that level now. They spent more money and made a run. It could not last because of their market. The are the perfect case to look at in this situation.

2005 Houston Astros
Salaries

Roger Clemens $18,000,022.00
Jeff Bagwell $18,000,000.00
Lance Berkman $10,500,000.00
Andy Pettitte $8,500,000.00
Roy Oswalt $5,900,000.00
Brad Ausmus $3,000,000.00
Craig Biggio $3,000,000.00

 

[TheGasman]

I have said that before. Many teams make a run at the series. The problem has been and still is, that as soon as they make that run, their team gets picked apart by the larger teams or the larger teams just increase payroll to get better.

.

You cant expect to win every year, thats how every sport is. Did anyone really think the Chiefs had a chance this year?

 

[JB]

You cant expect to win every year, thats how every sport is. Did anyone really think the Chiefs had a chance this year?

BUt you can if you can outspend every other team? The team with the most payroll has been in the playoffs every single year except one for the last decade.

 

[TheGasman]

They had a solid team then, but look at the stats of payroll. Nobody on their team at that level now. They spent more money and made a run. It could not last because of their market. The are the perfect case to look at in this situation.

2005 Houston Astros
Salaries

Roger Clemens $18,000,022.00
Jeff Bagwell $18,000,000.00
Lance Berkman $10,500,000.00
Andy Pettitte $8,500,000.00
Roy Oswalt $5,900,000.00
Brad Ausmus $3,000,000.00
Craig Biggio $3,000,000.00

That was the start of the end of the careers for more then half that list. Baseball teams are succesful when their core comes together and you get those few years. You saw it with the Rays and im hoping to see it with the Dodgers, thats just the way it is. A cap wouldnt change that.
Clemens and Pettite were the only ones who left right after that. Bagwell was hurt and they went in brought in Lee. I think the Astros are suffering now from a owner who tries to do to much.

 

[TheGasman]

BUt you can if you can outspend every other team? The team with the most payroll has been in the playoffs every single year except one for the last decade.

Ya but they only won it all two of those years. Its been this way since the 1920s, its never going to change, MLB loves the Drama. I watch two sports, Hockey and Baseball. I saw how a cap ruined hockey, I have had to deal with a team rebuilding for the better part of the decade, this is why I feel this way.

I feel like I need to take a shower now for defending the Yankees.

 

[Spank818]

I'm not "stooping" anywhere. Trust me, many baseball fans feel and think the way I do about the Yankees. Believe me on that.

And are you really trying to make a point about spending money when the Twins increased payroll and the Yankees decreased? Do you really want to go there?

Hummm. Twins are under 100 million. Yankees, are over 200 million.

Oh, but the Twins increased payroll by a whole 9 million, and the Yankees decreased by a whole 8. So I guess it's all even now, huh?

Pffft.

And about the Astros. What was I wrong about? I said they were a mid market team, and they are. I also said I don't recall the last time they did anything. I also specifically said just because you spend money doesn't guarantee a good team. So, again, what was I wrong about?

The Twins have a lot of fans, and it's cool to see. They are one of the few teams left who still do things the right way and find a way to be consistently competitive in an unbalanced league.

I'm just relieved the Twins stepped up to spend some money to sign Mauer.

If not, by mid season we'd be talking about who we'd get in a trade from the Yankees for him. Because we all know they'd be the team on the phone trying to get him.

I mean, what other team could have the HUGE contracts of ARod, Texeira, Sabathia, Burnett and Jeter and still be able to get a guy like Mauer?

I'll let the Yankee fans answer that one.

Nike, you have to get your facts straight. You made this comment, "I can't remember the last time the Astros did anything, but they're a middle of the road team as far as payroll is concerned." They were ranked 8th highest in payroll so, no they are not a "middle of the road team" in payroll. They have one of the highest. So were you right or wrong? I'll let you answer that.

I really don't have to go there because what I stated is fact. Fact is also that the Yanks do outspend everyone. Hello, we're not blind to that. And I never said we were even.

You still haven't answered my question regarding scale. Is there a scale in MLB where one takes advantage of the system more than others? And don't take this morality stance about doing things the right way either. The Yankees spend and they win, for themselves and for us fans. In my book that's doing it the right way. Believe me that there is no "right way" in professional sports.

Have I not said it time and time again that there are people that will always hate the Yankees and we're fine with that. Just like you have to accept that there are die hard Yankee fans out there. It's like what JB said that it's fine when the pendulum swings your way yet when it goes the other way then it's unfavorable. So to answer your question, yes you "stoop" because sensible fans respect the other sides position on the topic and not be one sided. You, sir, do not respect our side of the topic and to me attacking our stance based on ignorance is, yes, stooping to a different level.

My last rebuttal on your last phrase there about who could afford those guys other than the Yankees... Mets, Cubs, Angels, Red Sox, Dodgers. The only thing is that they choose not to sign them for whatever reasons they come up with so they don't look like bad guys to their fans when the fans clamor about not fielding a championship caliber team.

 

[JB]

That was the start of the end of the careers for more then half that list. Baseball teams are succesful when their core comes together and you get those few years. You saw it with the Rays and im hoping to see it with the Dodgers, thats just the way it is. A cap wouldnt change that.
Clemens and Pettite were the only ones who left right after that. Bagwell was hurt and they went in brought in Lee. I think the Astros are suffering now from a owner who tries to do to much.

While all of that is true, they won those years mainly because of those 3 guys. Clemens was simply dominant as was Pettite to a less extent.

To think a cap would not be fair is crazy. Sure its not in the rules right now. But look at the exact thing that happened. The rays beat out the Yankees and the Yankees go out and sign HUGE offseason players to record contracts (total payroll).

It simply is a cant compete situation. It has been said by teh experts for years that the number is 145 million to compete. more than that is making mistakes and being able to move past that. The yankees pay more in luxury tax than some teams entire payroll. Is it wrong, no, its not against the rules. But if sports are supposed to be the one thing that is a level playing field and it works for every other sport out there, why is MLB the only one going against it?

Because they need the big teams like the Yankees and the Sox there each and every year. They do not see the big picture that teams in smaller cities can become global teams just like they have in every other sport.

The argument against salary caps are so feeble. Why not have a level playing field? There is no answer. It simply works better than other sports on every single level. Why let teams buy their way in when they dont have to? Only to cater to those teams! that is the only reason.

 

[TheGasman]

While all of that is true, they won those years mainly because of those 3 guys. Clemens was simply dominant as was Pettite to a less extent.

To think a cap would not be fair is crazy. Sure its not in the rules right now. But look at the exact thing that happened. The rays beat out the Yankees and the Yankees go out and sign HUGE offseason players to record contracts (total payroll).

.

The problem with a team like the Astros is that they cant even sign the kids they are drafting. I said it before but I think a global draft and a slotting system would benefit these smaller and middle market teams. These smaller market teams could really take advantage of the extra draft picks they get for losing the free agents but most of them never do anything with it.

As for Clemins and Pettite, its funny to look back now at why they were such animals.

 

[Islander]

It simply is a cant compete situation. It has been said by teh experts for years that the number is 145 million to compete. more than that is making mistakes and being able to move past that.

I have heard that before too, but thinking about it now, that doesn't work out. Since the Yankees are the only team over that does that mean they are the only team that can compete. The Mets have the next highest payroll and it is about 136 mill. Just doesn't work out.

 

[JB]

I have heard that before too, but thinking about it now, that doesn't work out. Since the Yankees are the only team over that does that mean they are the only team that can compete. The Mets have the next highest payroll and it is about 136 mill. Just doesn't work out.

You have it backward. It means that once you clear that amount, it does not matter. It is about getting close to that amount. The more you spend, means the more mistakes you CAN make. Not that you will make. But if you cannot spend anywhere near that number or even half that number, you simply cannot compete long term.

 

[NikeGolf]

Nike, you have to get your facts straight. You made this comment, "I can't remember the last time the Astros did anything, but they're a middle of the road team as far as payroll is concerned." They were ranked 8th highest in payroll so, no they are not a "middle of the road team" in payroll. They have one of the highest. So were you right or wrong? I'll let you answer that.

I really don't have to go there because what I stated is fact. Fact is also that the Yanks do outspend everyone. Hello, we're not blind to that. And I never said we were even.

You still haven't answered my question regarding scale. Is there a scale in MLB where one takes advantage of the system more than others? And don't take this morality stance about doing things the right way either. The Yankees spend and they win, for themselves and for us fans. In my book that's doing it the right way. Believe me that there is no "right way" in professional sports.

Have I not said it time and time again that there are people that will always hate the Yankees and we're fine with that. Just like you have to accept that there are die hard Yankee fans out there. It's like what JB said that it's fine when the pendulum swings your way yet when it goes the other way then it's unfavorable. So to answer your question, yes you "stoop" because sensible fans respect the other sides position on the topic and not be one sided. You, sir, do not respect our side of the topic and to me attacking our stance based on ignorance is, yes, stooping to a different level.

My last rebuttal on your last phrase there about who could afford those guys other than the Yankees... Mets, Cubs, Angels, Red Sox, Dodgers. The only thing is that they choose not to sign them for whatever reasons they come up with so they don't look like bad guys to their fans when the fans clamor about not fielding a championship caliber team.

To me, 8 is middle road. About everyone is either middle road or low end compared to the Yankees.

Spending a ton more than any other team is "right" to you? I know they're allowed to do it, but let's not kid ourselves.

Oh, and your last rebuttal is flat out absurd. No other team spends like the Yankees because they're afraid to look bad?

C'mon.

The Yankees are what they are. You like them, and I don't. It's really that simple.

And I for one, don't hate any Yankee fans. You're taking this whole thing too seriously.

 

[Spank818]

To me, 8 is middle road. About everyone is either middle road or low end compared to the Yankees.

Spending a ton more than any other team is "right" to you? I know they're allowed to do it, but let's not kid ourselves.

Oh, and your last rebuttal is flat out absurd. No other team spends like the Yankees because they're afraid to look bad?

C'mon.

The Yankees are what they are. You like them, and I don't. It's really that simple.

And I for one, don't hate any Yankee fans. You're taking this whole thing too seriously.

I'd be ashamed if I was your math teacher. Do the numbers. In the our world 30 divided by 3 = 10 is it not? There's a high 1/3, a middle 1/3, and a low 1/3 correct? #8 in the scale would go in... go ahead count on your fingers. Your math is incorrect as I have been saying all along.

Right = within the rules right? Ok so it's semantics... let's just say the Yanks are privileged and allowed. Is that better or are you going lecture me on your brand of grammar too just like your math?

Are you saying the Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs can't afford those players? That reasoning is absurd because you know they can but they just don't want to and hide under the veil of "We can't afford them".

I've been saying that you go your way and I'll go mine all along and you keep spouting out these bizarre correlations that are just ludicrous. I have always kept an open mind with you Nike and some of your arguments do have merit but I'll have to take a pass on this one now because it has taken up way too much of my time already. I'm sure I'll run into you again on another thread. Good bye.