Shallowing the Club

[blugold]

Initiating/triggering something is a lot different than actually doing it.

Give me that body rotation to shallow the club.

 

[OldandStiff]

Give me that body rotation to shallow the club.

Lol As he does 3 things other than turn right off the bat with that move. Like I said, senantics. But I'm around this constantly and I see people continually pull themselves out and steeper by turning before doing those other things he does there.

I love Gankas btw

 

[Duffer Seamus]

Nobody watching that YouTube video or reading this forum is good enough to copy Scottie Scheffler's swing. People need to learn how to shallow the club in transition because we're not as good as Scottie Scheffler.

I daresay few amateurs are as good as even average PGA Pros, whether they shallow the club in transition or not

Give me that body rotation to shallow the club.

Funny thing about that: That's the way TMG teaches it. I could make it work in slow-motion, but, as soon as I tried speeding-up it all fell apart for me. My pivot-down would outstrip my shallowing and I'd be way too steep.

I found that, for me, if I let the club begin to shallow right after the top of my back-swing, and let the feel of that happening be the trigger for beginning my transition moves (hip surf, start pushing lead buttock back, weight transition), it all comes together nicely.

 

[blugold]

I daresay few amateurs are as good as even average PGA Pros, whether they shallow the club in transition or not


Funny thing about that: That's the way TMG teaches it. I could make it work in slow-motion, but, as soon as I tried speeding-up it all fell apart for me. My pivot-down would outstrip my shallowing and I'd be way too steep.

I found that, for me, if I let the club begin to shallow right after the top of my back-swing, and let the feel of that happening be the trigger for beginning my transition moves (hip surf, start pushing lead buttock back, weight transition), it all comes together nicely.

That's a compensation you're making with your swing. If it works, great. Just like Scottie's feet.

The missing piece here, the video in the OP does it well, the efficient transition comes from and efficient backswing which comes from an efficient takeaway. The more those positions match up, the easier it is to swing down correctly. It almost becomes completely natural and thoughtless.

 

[MacTourney]

Shallowing is a noticeable backward movement of the shaft behind the backswing plane which sets the clubhead on a more inside path coming from behind the hands. Scotty's doesn't appear to do that inside behind the hands move in transition. He bows his left wrist after transition while holding his backswing rotation.

But does a shallowing move have to be that noticeable- it can be and often times is, but to what degree is negotiable. It's common ground with some pros that a ball is hit within the first inch of the downswing so if you want to be inside at the strike shallowing is immediate, and it gains on itself from there all the way down.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

That's a compensation you're making with your swing. If it works, great. Just like Scottie's feet.

No two swings are exactly alike

It actually happened by accident. Since I couldn't seem to get the shallow at transition right I "patched" the problem by purposely shallowing the club at the top of my back-swing. Wasn't ideal, but, it allowed me to move on.

Then, just about a week ago, I noticed I had unconsciously reverted to bringing the shaft more vertical at the top of my back-swing, and unconsciously began passively shallowing it to trigger the other moves. Note: Began shallowing the club. It's not that I shallow the club, then begin the hip surf... It's more that I feel myself hit the top of my back-swing, let the club begin to passively shallow, and, as soon as I feel that, start initiating the other down-swing motions.

The missing piece here, the video in the OP does it well, the efficient transition comes from and efficient backswing which comes from an efficient takeaway.

Which starts with proper stance and setup. Yeah: It's like dominoes.

It almost becomes completely natural and thoughtless.

Oh, how I wish it'd been that easy

Btw: That video nicely illustrates the point I was making about the elbow dropping.

But does a shallowing move have to be that noticeable ...

No, it doesn't have to be that pronounced right at/after transition. Some golfers shallow later in the down-swing. But, it does have to happen, eventually, with the kind of swing we're discussing. But, if you watch the video @blugold posted, you'll note a side-effect: That shallowing move brings the trail elbow into a good position.

 

[Jtubb17]

I definitely need to give this a try. Coming in steep and over the top is my nemesis right now.

 

[MacTourney]

No, it doesn't have to be that pronounced right at/after transition. Some golfers shallow later in the down-swing. But, it does have to happen, eventually, with the kind of swing we're discussing. But, if you watch the video @blugold posted, you'll note a side-effect: That shallowing move brings the trail elbow into a good position.

Watched a little bit of the OP video, but not the other one you mentioned as it is too contortionist for me. Wondering why in the first video the guy just didn't have the student swing cack-handed for about a week.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

I definitely need to give this a try. Coming in steep and over the top is my nemesis right now.

Careful with that. You can't just take whatever swing you have currently, apply some random thing from some other swing, and hope to fix a swing flaw.

As @blugold and I have noted: The golf swing is a chain of events that begins at setup, through take-away, back-swing, to transition, then down-swing, and, finally, finish. The execution of each part is dependent upon the execution of the part that precedes it. That shallowing move is just one part of a particular swing sequence.

Watch carefully that video blugold posted. Replay the segment around the 5-second mark repeatedly and watch carefully what they have the student doing with his hips and so-on. Note that, as he begins the transition, he surfs his hips target-wards just a bit, he pushes his lead buttock back (see below), shallows, and begins turning down and around toward where the ball would be.

Note, specifically, he's not swinging the club at all. He's simply beginning his pivot-down and allowing the club to passively shallow.

Another note: Pushes his lead buttock back, not "pivots his hips." Major difference between the two motions.

 

[Canadan]

This is a great point. The best player in the world doesn't do something and assuming that proves that the thing doesn't need to be done, is incredibly flawed logic and proves how important shallowing is.

Nobody watching that YouTube video or reading this forum is good enough to copy Scottie Scheffler's swing. People need to learn how to shallow the club in transition because we're not as good as Scottie Scheffler.

Yeah, I think the one off arguments are tough. I could start a 'take away the club on plane' thread and someone would thread stomp me with "JIM FURYK" and thread over hahaha

Scottie ain't normal. Neither is that terrifying foot slide he does, and I dare any amateur to spend much time attempting to copy that hahaha! We benefit most from eliminating as much as we can that sucks about our golf swing.

 

[blugold]

Yeah, I think the one off arguments are tough. I could start a 'take away the club on plane' thread and someone would thread stomp me with "JIM FURYK" and thread over hahaha

Scottie ain't normal. Neither is that terrifying foot slide he does, and I dare any amateur to spend much time attempting to copy that hahaha! We benefit most from eliminating as much as we can that sucks about our golf swing.

Rory and Freddie are above the plane on the takeaway. Raymond Floyd snapped it to the inside. For an amateur golfer to use the best players in the world as justification to do something inefficiently is kind of dumb.

 

[Canadan]

Rory and Freddie are above the plane on the takeaway. Raymond Floyd snapped it to the inside. For an amateur golfer to use the best players in the world as justification to do something inefficiently is kind of dumb.

I think that's what I love so much about the video in the OP.

I got something a bit different than someone else, and that includes completely ignoring his takeaway thoughts and going all in on his re-entry thoughts. Made a MASSIVE difference in my game this weekend.

 

[Duffer Seamus]

For an amateur golfer to use the best players in the world as justification to do something inefficiently is kind of dumb.

Would be like me adopting a single-plane swing and expecting to bomb them like BAD

 

[blugold]

I think that's what I love so much about the video in the OP.

I got something a bit different than someone else, and that includes completely ignoring his takeaway thoughts and going all in on his re-entry thoughts. Made a MASSIVE difference in my game this weekend.

It's what I love about the golf swing. There isn't a definite right way to do it.

 

[Canadan]

It's what I love about the golf swing. There isn't a definite right way to do it.

I love the videos where they show countless golfers with wildly different swings and then they pause right before contact and they all look the same.

If that isn't the most incredible thing about this game, I don't know what is.

 

[Jtubb17]

Careful with that. You can't just take whatever swing you have currently, apply some random thing from some other swing, and hope to fix a swing flaw.

As @blugold and I have noted: The golf swing is a chain of events that begins at setup, through take-away, back-swing, to transition, then down-swing, and, finally, finish. The execution of each part is dependent upon the execution of the part that precedes it. That shallowing move is just one part of a particular swing sequence.

Watch carefully that video blugold posted. Replay the segment around the 5-second mark repeatedly and watch carefully what they have the student doing with his hips and so-on. Note that, as he begins the transition, he surfs his hips target-wards just a bit, he pushes his lead buttock back (see below), shallows, and begins turning down and around toward where the ball would be.

Note, specifically, he's not swinging the club at all. He's simply beginning his pivot-down and allowing the club to passively shallow.

Another note: Pushes his lead buttock back, not "pivot his hips." Major difference between the two motions.

Definitely going to take everything into consideration. Just super frustrated lately and looking for anything to help while I try to find a new coach now that mine retired

 

[razaar]

This is a great point. The best player in the world doesn't do something and assuming that proves that the thing doesn't need to be done, is incredibly flawed logic and proves how important shallowing is.

Nobody watching that YouTube video or reading this forum is good enough to copy Scottie Scheffler's swing. People need to learn how to shallow the club in transition because we're not as good as Scottie Scheffler.

There is a difference between shallowing and wrist flexion and forearm supination.
Shallowing is caused by external rotation of the target hip with left pelvic tilt + external rotation and flexion of the trail hip+ depression of the trail trap + retraction and external rotation of the trail shoulder + transverse adduction of the trail shoulder (elbow trying to touch other elbow). These micro movements all occur together in 20 milliseconds of the transition.

 

[McLovin]

There is a difference between shallowing and wrist flexion and forearm supination.
Shallowing is caused by external rotation of the target hip with left pelvic tilt + external rotation and flexion of the trail hip+ depression of the trail trap + retraction and external rotation of the trail shoulder + transverse adduction of the trail shoulder (elbow trying to touch other elbow). These micro movements all occur together in 20 milliseconds of the transition.

 

[Hawk]

I'm not going to watch any of the videos, because that tends to get me into rabbit holes that I don't need to go down, but I'll talk about my shallowing journey a bit (and how it relates to the elbow, turning, etc.). This has been a work in progress. I got in an ok spot before the season started and then regressed big time, and now how feel like I am finally understanding the concept and how it relates to me.

First of all, driving the elbow into the side, which is a pretty common tip, is a steepener for me. That's because my concept of getting that elbow there is to pull the club in closer to the body.

Second, if I think about lower body movement (i.e., leading with the lower body), I'll immediately spin out my shoulders, get steep, and over the top. Rotation is a steepener for OTT swings (from all my reading/watching) because it's usually done out of sequence and kicks the club out.

For me, I have to almost think I'm not rotating/clearing hips/etc at all. I'm not thinking about shallowing the club either. I just drop my arms straight down, hopefully before I start rotating. The lower I can get my arms, the better. Think something like the Justin Rose drill or how Tiger talked about his arms/hands beating his hips to the ball. The club just naturally shallows if the arms drop.

As for the right elbow, I have my best ball striking and face control if I'm feeling it straighten as my arms drop.

 

[4hourrule]

Careful with that. You can't just take whatever swing you have currently, apply some random thing from some other swing, and hope to fix a swing flaw.

As @blugold and I have noted: The golf swing is a chain of events that begins at setup, through take-away, back-swing, to transition, then down-swing, and, finally, finish. The execution of each part is dependent upon the execution of the part that precedes it. That shallowing move is just one part of a particular swing sequence.

Watch carefully that video blugold posted. Replay the segment around the 5-second mark repeatedly and watch carefully what they have the student doing with his hips and so-on. Note that, as he begins the transition, he surfs his hips target-wards just a bit, he pushes his lead buttock back (see below), shallows, and begins turning down and around toward where the ball would be.

Note, specifically, he's not swinging the club at all. He's simply beginning his pivot-down and allowing the club to passively shallow.

Another note: Pushes his lead buttock back, not "pivots his hips." Major difference between the two motions.

Agreed, I call it Rotating Hips instead of sliding the Hips. I want to feel as if my forward Cheek hits wall behind me instead of sliding along it.

 

[outlawx]

This coupled montes no turn cast seems to be the ticket back to distance for me.

 

[Canadan]

I'm not going to watch any of the videos, because that tends to get me into rabbit holes that I don't need to go down, but I'll talk about my shallowing journey a bit (and how it relates to the elbow, turning, etc.). This has been a work in progress. I got in an ok spot before the season started and then regressed big time, and now how feel like I am finally understanding the concept and how it relates to me.

First of all, driving the elbow into the side, which is a pretty common tip, is a steepener for me. That's because my concept of getting that elbow there is to pull the club in closer to the body.

Second, if I think about lower body movement (i.e., leading with the lower body), I'll immediately spin out my shoulders, get steep, and over the top. Rotation is a steepener for OTT swings (from all my reading/watching) because it's usually done out of sequence and kicks the club out.

For me, I have to almost think I'm not rotating/clearing hips/etc at all. I'm not thinking about shallowing the club either. I just drop my arms straight down, hopefully before I start rotating. The lower I can get my arms, the better. Think something like the Justin Rose drill or how Tiger talked about his arms/hands beating his hips to the ball. The club just naturally shallows if the arms drop.

As for the right elbow, I have my best ball striking and face control if I'm feeling it straighten as my arms drop.

I am in cahoots on the arm tucking stuff. I feel like most of the drills for that translate into trapping the club above the plane and going big steep, which is something I've been trying to isolate for the better part of the year.

I love the idea of a clear more than a tuck. Getting that right elbow through earlier and underneath the left arm is massive for my brain, since my current decision is typically to have the right elbow controlling the clubhead and more or less getting stuck facing directly away from the target.

If I can get that right elbow cleared and underneath, my contact becomes effortless.

 

[Hawk]

I am in cahoots on the arm tucking stuff. I feel like most of the drills for that translate into trapping the club above the plane and going big steep, which is something I've been trying to isolate for the better part of the year.

I love the idea of a clear more than a tuck. Getting that right elbow through earlier and underneath the left arm is massive for my brain, since my current decision is typically to have the right elbow controlling the clubhead and more or less getting stuck facing directly away from the target.

If I can get that right elbow cleared and underneath, my contact becomes effortless.

I like that thought a lot.

Don't get me wrong - I still have pivot issues and stall, but that's secondary to the steepening move that is natural to my DNA. I'm just trying to erase that from my memory.

I think you'd like Athletic Motion on Youtube. I think they are hard to beat for accurate information about what's going on in the swing.

 

[Canadan]

I like that thought a lot.

Don't get me wrong - I still have pivot issues and stall, but that's secondary to the steepening move that is natural to my DNA. I'm just trying to erase that from my memory.

I think you'd like Athletic Motion on Youtube. I think they are hard to beat for accurate information about what's going on in the swing.

I am ALL for finding people saying something different than " put this here" or "avoid going there" or "must take away like this" because it's just flat out wrong.

I've paid hundreds of dollars to tell pros what I am doing wrong and getting nowhere with it. I'm at the point where I am pretty sure I am on my own to solve it, but am hyper intent on finding solutions that solve it for my brain. The video in the OP is the real start to that, and I am pumped about it.

 

[Canadan]

@Hawk do we have a thread on them with a couple favorite videos to reference?