Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

[JB]

Tough question to answer here- in terms of % caddie payouts, where does this one rank ~.4%?

I had previously stated that I gave Kuchar kudos for offering the 15k additional, but that didn’t come from him and had nothing to do with it, so it was just the 5k from Matt.


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I was speaking to a post earlier that said it would be impossible to find a pga tour winner that didnt give 10%. That has zero fact behind it. If I was Kuchar, would I have given more? Probably. Jerry Seinfeld said last year in an interview, no matter the bill or the service, he has to tip 100% because social media is that terrible with these "causes".

I also used the example earlier. Lets say Phil Mickelson goes into a restaurant. The server comes in and literally calls him a piece of ****, is rude, gives terrible service, etc. He STILL has to tip and tip big, because all it takes is the photo on social media and a line saying Phil is a cheapskate and the mob goes nuts.

If I offer you a job to help me setup a cool app. I tell you that you will get 5k for it. If it all of the sudden starts to go viral, I will give you 7k. And if it goes nuts and becomes #1 in downloads, I will give you 10k. All of that happens and I give you 12k as a bonus.

SHould you then be in the right to all of the sudden say "I deserve 50k because you made more money"? I also am the one that took all of the cost risk, because it could have been zero.

 

[obedt]

I was speaking to a post earlier that said it would be impossible to find a pga tour winner that didnt give 10%. That has zero fact behind it. If I was Kuchar, would I have given more? Probably. Jerry Seinfeld said last year in an interview, no matter the bill or the service, he has to tip 100% because social media is that terrible with these "causes".

I also used the example earlier. Lets say Phil Mickelson goes into a restaurant. The server comes in and literally calls him a piece of ****, is rude, gives terrible service, etc. He STILL has to tip and tip big, because all it takes is the photo on social media and a line saying Phil is a cheapskate and the mob goes nuts.

If I offer you a job to help me setup a cool app. I tell you that you will get 5k for it. If it all of the sudden starts to go viral, I will give you 7k. And if it goes nuts and becomes #1 in downloads, I will give you 10k. All of that happens and I give you 12k as a bonus.

SHould you then be in the right to all of the sudden say "I deserve 50k because you made more money"? I also am the one that took all of the cost risk, because it could have been zero.

Yeah, sorry about that JB. My question was way out of context from the viewpoint you were answering to.

I don’t know hardly anything about touring pro caddies, but can tell there are major differences between what they go through and what the local caddie did. Having to travel, no guarantees that even travel expenses will be covered, the psychological aspects involved in the caddie-pro relationship. It’s real complicated and I cannot see what this caddie did worthy of similar compensation (10%). Him turning down the additional 15k from the agent (not Kuchar) was off base imo and I can’t approve of the way he’s gone about his business airing things out publically. I’m in agreement with the majority of THPers on that.

The spot where I seem to differ from many is I think the % payout Kuchar provided is so low it’s an insult. That’s why I was wondering if that % payout is historically low (which I think it has to be) or if this is a standard payment % for stand in caddies. If it’s the latter my entire stance will have been wrong, but that low of a % is crazy to me.


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[JB]

Yeah, sorry about that JB. My question was way out of context from the viewpoint you were answering to.

I don’t know hardly anything about touring pro caddies, but can tell there are major differences between what they go through and what the local caddie did. Having to travel, no guarantees that even travel expenses will be covered, the psychological aspects involved in the caddie-pro relationship. It’s real complicated and I cannot see what this caddie did worthy of similar compensation (10%). Him turning down the additional 15k from the agent (not Kuchar) was off base imo and I can’t approve of the way he’s gone about his business airing things out publically. I’m in agreement with the majority of THPers on that.

The spot where I seem to differ from many is I think the % payout Kuchar provided is so low it’s an insult. That’s why I was wondering if that % payout is historically low (which I think it has to be) or if this is a standard payment % for stand in caddies. If it’s the latter my entire stance will have been wrong, but that low of a % is crazy to me.


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There really is no standard pertaining to local.
Kuch gave him more than the norm of just a couple of years ago up front, which nobody seems to mention. Heck one of the guys posted a link to a Forbes article saying weekly pay was $1500-$2500 and this guy got more than that guaranteed.

 

[rallo]

Looking at the big picture, I think your words above is what matters most.
One of the stories from today, linked in this thread today, includes the point that "from now on, on Tour, caddies and players will look differently at Kuchar".
This reminds me a bit of Fuzzy Zoeller, who at the 1997 Masters said some words which hurt his reputation. My guess is that for the past 20 years people have looked at Fuzzy differently because of it.

I don't know dude, I don't think using semi-veiled racist comments and being dubbed "cheap" are on the same level.

 

[kevin81002]

Hahaha... From an ex-caddie.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/25997282

 

[DG_1234]

I don't know dude, I don't think using semi-veiled racist comments and being dubbed "cheap" are on the same level.

You are right, the two offenses are very different. But I think the results might be similar.
For 20 years now Fuzzy has likely had people look at him differently and, or, had to continually answer questions about the 1997 Masters.
Here is a link to a Sports Illustrated story where the writes suggests Kuchar will suffer a similar fate.

link to SI story:

https://www.si.com/golf/2019/02/14/matt-kuchar-caddie-tipping-controversy-comments-genesis-open

 

[rallo]

You are right, the two offenses are very different. But I think the results might be similar.
For 20 years now Fuzzy has likely had people look at him differently and, or, had to continually answer questions about the 1997 Masters.
Here is a link to a Sports Illustrated story where the writes suggests Kuchar will suffer a similar fate.

link to SI story:

https://www.si.com/golf/2019/02/14/matt-kuchar-caddie-tipping-controversy-comments-genesis-open

If anything, I would think that this would show the public how out of touch the media is in exploiting an issue. I can't imagine what would have happened to Fuzzy if he had made his comments today instead of in the 90s (maybe rightfully so)... if this follows Kuch as long as the former followed Fuzzy, it will only reflect poorly on society and the media IMO.

 

[JB]

If anything, I would think that this would show the public how out of touch the media is in exploiting an issue. I can't imagine what would have happened to Fuzzy if he had made his comments today instead of in the 90s (maybe rightfully so)... if this follows Kuch as long as the former followed Fuzzy, it will only reflect poorly on society and the media IMO.

I said similar to a friend of mine the other day in regards to Big Ben and Kobe. Could you imagine if those things happened in the current climate?
By the US Open this is a non-story. On an unrelated note (related to this thread), I spoke to two of his major sponsors today and neither have any plan on dropping Matt Kuchar.

I will would really like to hear more about the caddies that are not allowed to speak unless a question is asked though

 

[fuffle master]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

I was speaking to a post earlier that said it would be impossible to find a pga tour winner that didnt give 10%. That has zero fact behind it. If I was Kuchar, would I have given more? Probably. Jerry Seinfeld said last year in an interview, no matter the bill or the service, he has to tip 100% because social media is that terrible with these "causes".

I also used the example earlier. Lets say Phil Mickelson goes into a restaurant. The server comes in and literally calls him a piece of ****, is rude, gives terrible service, etc. He STILL has to tip and tip big, because all it takes is the photo on social media and a line saying Phil is a cheapskate and the mob goes nuts.

If I offer you a job to help me setup a cool app. I tell you that you will get 5k for it. If it all of the sudden starts to go viral, I will give you 7k. And if it goes nuts and becomes #1 in downloads, I will give you 10k. All of that happens and I give you 12k as a bonus.

SHould you then be in the right to all of the sudden say "I deserve 50k because you made more money"? I also am the one that took all of the cost risk, because it could have been zero.

Totally correct on the celebrity rules on tipping at restaurants. They are definitely are under a different microscope and will get blasted if not perceived to treat the “common person” properly. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind switching shoes and having to deal with that. Lol

I think the analogy with the app is a valid comparison. If the public were informed how a person of high stature in income had a normal coder create a game like fortnight. And let’s say a contract was written for the coder to collect the fees you suggested. Then fortnight blows up and the person makes millions off the game, but the coder only received the 12,000. Some in the public would act the same.

Now, the difference for me in this situation, is there is a precedent to how much is usually paid in bonus. Maybe the precedent is and should be different for your caddies vs a club caddie, but there is some precedent. You can say it’s 10%, 8%, or whatever number. The fact is the number is higher the .38%. So, the public is lashing out. If the norm was to give a set small number then I doubt this would have gotten any traction.


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[Pears]

My thought is this. There was an agreed upon amount to be paid, plus a bonus if tourney was won right. Kuchar did what was agreed.

Looking forward, do you feel this caddy will land ANY high profile work in the future? I'm not at all sure on how a golfer/caddy relationship works but I would think he may have a hard time finding good work after this.

 

[JB]

Totally correct on the celebrity rules on tipping at restaurants. They are definitely are under a different microscope and will get blasted if not perceived to treat the “common person” properly. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind switching shoes and having to deal with that. Lol

I think the analogy with the app is a valid comparison. If the public were informed how a person of high stature in income had a normal coder create a game like fortnight. And let’s say a contract was written for the cider to collect the fees you suggested. Then fortnight blows up and the person makes millions off the game, but the coder only received the 12,000. Some in the public would act the same.

Now, the difference for me in this situation, is there is a precedent to how much is usually paid in bonus. Maybe the precedent is and should be different for your caddies vs a club caddie, but there is some precedent. You can say it’s 10%, 8%, or whatever number. The fact is the number is higher the .38%. So, the public is lashing out. If the norm was to give a set small number then I doubt this would have gotten any traction.


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Then the caddie should have said that beforehand and Kuchar could have either agreed to it, or tried to find someone else.
If Kuchar missed the cut and said "I know we agreed on a price, but because of our poor play, I missed the cut, therefore you are only going to get 1000". Would that be okay? I mean it is literally the exact same thing that is happening.

With all of that said, I, personally would have done more, but honestly, it wouldn't have sniffed the 10% that is getting thrown around as an automatic since this is not a tour caddie with the same expenses.

 

[obedt]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

I said similar to a friend of mine the other day in regards to Big Ben and Kobe. Could you imagine if those things happened in the current climate?
By the US Open this is a non-story. On an unrelated note (related to this thread), I spoke to two of his major sponsors today and neither have any plan on dropping Matt Kuchar.

I will would really like to hear more about the caddies that are not allowed to speak unless a question is asked though

Oh absolutely I wouldn’t drop Kuchar because of this (unless he was sponsoring Juanito’s Chimichangas). It’s a bad look in my eyes, but not worth wielding a pitch fork over.

Edit: his Skechers endorsement deal may have gone up

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[PKorf]

Many participants in this thread have chosen to ignore Tour caddie pay standards, averages, traditions etc...
My recommendation to you is to leave it alone, because you will not "convince" the majority here that Kuchar did anything wrong.

In an effort to discuss things in more detail you’ve chosen to ignore every single time I’ve asked you a question soooooo...


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[fuffle master]

My thought is this. There was an agreed upon amount to be paid, plus a bonus if tourney was won right. Kuchar did what was agreed.

Looking forward, do you feel this caddy will land ANY high profile work in the future? I'm not at all sure on how a golfer/caddy relationship works but I would think he may have a hard time finding good work after this.

I don’t think anyone on either side doesn’t agree that Kuchar fulfilled the handshake agreement. The issue that is the disagreement by most is the amount of bonus. Some say any amount is good it’s his money. Some say he is being cheap based off of the amount he won.

Seems as the world’s gap of those being considered in the have section vs those in the have not monetary wise is steadily getting wider. That makes for a larger population that continues to grow that believes in fighting for those that do not have when it looks like a have is taking advantage. Neither side is wrong. Just personal opinions and beliefs.


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[badolds]

I want to commend everybody for debating this in a civil manner. This thread and this story just keeps going and going, The whole thing is a dumpster fire but I just cant stop looking.

 

[fuffle master]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

Then the caddie should have said that beforehand and Kuchar could have either agreed to it, or tried to find someone else.
If Kuchar missed the cut and said "I know we agreed on a price, but because of our poor play, I missed the cut, therefore you are only going to get 1000". Would that be okay? I mean it is literally the exact same thing that is happening.

With all of that said, I, personally would have done more, but honestly, it wouldn't have sniffed the 10% that is getting thrown around as an automatic since this is not a tour caddie with the same expenses.

I thought I read the agreement according to Kuchar was 1000 if missed the cut, 2000 if made cut, 3000 if top 25, and 4000 if top ten. He stated nothing on there being a bonus if he won. Thus, his claim of 5000 being proper.

El Tucan stated he thought the agreement was 3,000 flat and a bonus depending on how much was won. Thus, why he stated he expected a larger bonus later.

Since there was no signed contract, it’s Kuchar’s word versus El Tucan’s. We will never truly know what the actual agreement was.

Therefore, according to Kuchar, he would have only paid 1000 per your example.

I also agree with you that I wouldn’t sniff the 10%. I would have been in the 5-6% neighborhood or what the normal % was during that type of scenario.

This has to have happen many times before. If the norm was to only pay 5,000 or so, then I think that would have been mentioned already. The fact no PGA tour person is coming to support Kuchar and saying this type of payment is normal, to me, means it’s not normal. That or the other PGA players see this as a loser of an issue and are just staying clear away.


Edit: I did not know my post was going to be 666. That is not a good sign

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[DG_1234]

Seems as the world’s gap of those being considered in the have section vs those in the have not monetary wise is steadily getting wider. That makes for a larger population that continues to grow that believes in fighting for those that do not have when it looks like a have is taking advantage. Neither side is wrong. Just personal opinions and beliefs.


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What you've written above is likely true, and increasingly understood. This is why I am very surprised that Kuchar, his wife,his agent, or his publicist (if he has one) were not anticipating that Kuchar would inevitably have to answer questions about how much he paid the local caddie for his winning bag.

 

[Lefteist Golfer]

What you've written above is likely true, and increasingly understood. This is why I am very surprised that Kuchar, his wife,his agent, or his publicist (if he has one) were not anticipating that Kuchar would inevitably have to answer questions about how much he paid the local caddie for his winning bag.

To be honest I really don’t think it would have ever crossed his mind as to why this would have been something to answer for (as an agreement was in place regardless) between the 2 parties.

Let’s be honest he could have finished 2nd and not a word would have been mentioned as to what he paid Ortiz.... imho the issue with this entire situation is that people seem to always feel entitled to something or more then what they were or are given.... it’s everywhere in today’s society.

I’m old school so your word is your word and an agreement is a agreement so for anyone to really feel as if it’s their business to bash Kuchar over this is really a shame and mind blogging to me. It’s making a mountain out of a mole hill


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[fuffle master]

Kuchar - Mayakoba Caddie Drama - Your Take?

Time to agree to disagree. This was a great discussion.

 

[golfinnut]

He's not losing sleep over it.

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[esg777]

In my opinion Kucher is wrong, here. He got paid $1.35 million for the win and has earned $46 million over his career. Giving this guy $50k is like me tipping a caddie $100. The $50k is life changing for this guy. I have lost alot respect for Kuch.

 

[ArmyGolf]

I'm not sure how anyone who thinks Kuchar is in the wrong here can actually function in their day-to-day lives. Its gotta be tough knowing that there are all these insanely wealthy people out there who dont adhere to your rules of payroll, despite them doing nothing wrong, fulfilling all obligations, and even paying above and beyond.

This sort of entitlement is why there are so many horror stories of peoples lives getting ruined after winning the lottery. Friends and family all want their Million or you are cheap, selfish, and despicable.

 

[DG_1234]

I’m old school so your word is your word and an agreement is a agreement so for anyone to really feel as if it’s their business to bash Kuchar over this is really a shame and mind blogging to me. It’s making a mountain out of a mole hill


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The reason this is such a compelling story is because golf is a game of tradition. For example, most everybody who follows golf knows the Masters winner puts on a green jacket, that Tiger wears a red shirt on Sunday's, that British Open fairways play hard and fast, that par is usually a good score for the US Open, that Azaelas bloom at Augusta, and that the caddie of a winning bag gets 10%.

 

[kevin81002]

To be honest I really don’t think it would have ever crossed his mind as to why this would have been something to answer for (as an agreement was in place regardless) between the 2 parties.

Let’s be honest he could have finished 2nd and not a word would have been mentioned as to what he paid Ortiz.... imho the issue with this entire situation is that people seem to always feel entitled to something or more then what they were or are given.... it’s everywhere in today’s society.

I’m old school so your word is your word and an agreement is a agreement so for anyone to really feel as if it’s their business to bash Kuchar over this is really a shame and mind blogging to me. It’s making a mountain out of a mole hill


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But here we have the two parties stating something different. Kuch said 2k for the loop, 3k for a made cut, 4k for a top 10, but doesn't say anything about a win. The caddie says 3k flat plus a percentage of the winnings, but that the percentage wasn't discussed. Who's telling the truth? And if the caddie is correct, even a 1% cut would have been almost 3x what he was paid.

Bottom line here is we don't know who is telling the truth, and we never will. And I completely agree had he finished 2nd we wouldn't have heard a word about it. But he didn't finish 2nd. He finished 1st and paid his caddie .38%, so now it's become a debate. Good or bad, it's out there.

Had it been me, I would have cut him a check for 40k and thanked my regular caddie for saving me 90k by not being there. Kuch looks good when the press starts asking the local guy what he made, local guy is happy because he just doubled his annual income... everybody looks good. To my knowledge, nobody has gone to a third world country with a local caddie and won. Like the internet or not, someone in the press was bound to start asking these sort of questions given the circumstances.



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[Greg Kulbick]

Looking at the big picture, I think your words above is what matters most.
One of the stories from today, linked in this thread today, includes the point that "from now on, on Tour, caddies and players will look differently at Kuchar".
This reminds me a bit of Fuzzy Zoeller, who at the 1997 Masters said some words which hurt his reputation. My guess is that for the past 20 years people have looked at Fuzzy differently because of it.

A lunch was set up for Fuzzy and Tiger to talk it out. Tiger showed up with a bucket of fried chicken. It was a joke blown out of proportion by the media.