The Official 2011 NFL Thread

[JB]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. He went face mask to face mask on McCoy, which is illegal in todays NFL. And being a repeat offender means he deserved what he got. Harrison just needs to lower the target a bit and this play was perfectly legal, broken ribs and all.

Sort of Agreed (although facemask is not technically illegal to its fullest). And to reiterate, a defender does NOT have to make an attempt at the ball which was something that was put out there earlier in the week.

 

[Steel President]

Well, no player can tackle another plyer with their helmet. James Harrison made no attempt to get his head out of the way while making the tackle. I beat this horse to death last week with OEM. So, I won't belabor the point again. I thought it was a hit that deserved punishment, by a player obviously hasn't learned that he has to get his head to the side while making a play on a runner.

I'm not going to get into a long debate either, but a ball carrier is not protected by helmet-to-helmet rules. At all. A player cannot launch or spear with the crown of his helmet, but a facemask-to-facemask hit is technically legal on a ball carrier. And, Harrison didn't hit him with the crown of his helmet. It was a facemask-to-facemask hit.


Steel Tappin'

 

[Tmex]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. He went face mask to face mask on McCoy, which is illegal in todays NFL. And being a repeat offender means he deserved what he got. Harrison just needs to lower the target a bit and this play was perfectly legal, broken ribs and all.

He knows what he is doing. LAnce Briggs laid out Megadud but still held up on the hit, was flagged and never fined. I know the refs have a tough job but its frustrating how inconsistent they are with these calls.Its like they're caught daydreaming and just throw flags to throw flags.

 

[blugold]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. He went face mask to face mask on McCoy, which is illegal in todays NFL. And being a repeat offender means he deserved what he got. Harrison just needs to lower the target a bit and this play was perfectly legal, broken ribs and all.

Sort of Agreed (although facemask is not technically illegal to its fullest). And to reiterate, a defender does NOT have to make an attempt at the ball which was something that was put out there earlier in the week.

Oh yeah I don't believe that the defender has to go for the ball. I do believe that hte defender has to at least try to get his head to either side.

defensive players every week make hard hits without using their heads.

 

[JB]

I'm not going to get into a long debate either, but a ball carrier is not protected by helmet-to-helmet rules. At all. A player cannot launch or spear with the crown of his helmet, but a facemask-to-facemask hit is technically legal on a ball carrier. And, Harrison didn't hit him with the crown of his helmet. It was a facemask-to-facemask hit.


Steel Tappin'

You are entirely right except one problem. He was not a ball carrier at the time, he stopped at the line of scrimmage and looked to be a ball passer rather than carrier which brings the rules of the "unprotected QB". Right or wrong, those are the rules.

 

[Steel President]

Have you ever played football? If so, you'd recognize just how hard it is to get your helmet to the side every play. It's such a fast game. Sure, ideally, you'd love to see a picture-perfect form tackle each and every time but it'll never happen. Now, a player should never dip his helmet and use the crown - that's dangerous for both. However, no matter the rules, some degree of helmet-to-helmet contact will always exist in the game of football.


Steel Tappin'

 

[Steel President]

You are entirely right except one problem. He was not a ball carrier at the time, he stopped at the line of scrimmage and looked to be a ball passer rather than carrier which brings the rules of the "unprotected QB". Right or wrong, those are the rules.

Oh, I recognize that. But, it was a split-second play. He really dumped it off at the last possible moment. Harrison was already in the act of tackling him when McCoy got rid of it. Plus, like I said, QB's outside of the pocket are not protected the same way as they are inside of the pocket. He'd have to be deemed a defenseless player for that to truly be a helmet-to-helmet hit. It wasn't late by any means and it's a borderline argument to say that McCoy was defenseless. It's just such a split-second occurrence.


Steel Tappin'

 

[JB]

In the video it sure looked like Harrison lowered his head to make the hit. Like he intentionally put his head into position to cause maximum damage. But the rules, and rightly so, now are that you have to tackle without your head then Harrison better learn how. Because the rules isn't changing. It is possible to deliver huge hits without using your head. If he can't learn ho to do that, maybe OLB isn't the job for him. I have no sympathy for him in this case.

edit: I just got back to my desk and watched the video of the hit. Harrison never once made a play on the ball. He made a play at the man. He meant to hit him and lowered his head to do so. Awful play by Harrison.

A guy going for a tackle does not have to make a play for the ball. I thought the goal was to tackle someone? How many times have we seen other players (like Clay M and hundreds of others) hit the QB without going after the ball? Im not sticking up for the tackle, but going for the ball means very little.

Oh yeah I don't believe that the defender has to go for the ball. I do believe that hte defender has to at least try to get his head to either side.

defensive players every week make hard hits without using their heads.

You can understand my confusion I am sure.

Have you ever played football? If so, you'd recognize just how hard it is to get your helmet to the side every play. It's such a fast game. Sure, ideally, you'd love to see a picture-perfect form tackle each and every time but it'll never happen. Now, a player should never dip his helmet and use the crown - that's dangerous for both. However, no matter the rules, some degree of helmet-to-helmet contact will always exist in the game of football.


Steel Tappin'

I have been around the game some would say. And I dont disagree with your statement, however the rule was put in place to eliminate this (right or wrong) and he violated said rule (again). He can hit the guy anywhere and he is okay in this instance because of hte bang bang play, but chose to do it the wrong way (according to the actual rules). I dont think this one can be disputed, he was not a ball carrier as soon as he was set to pass before the line of scrimmage.

 

[JB]

Oh, I recognize that. But, it was a split-second play. He really dumped it off at the last possible moment. Harrison was already in the act of tackling him when McCoy got rid of it. Plus, like I said, QB's outside of the pocket are not protected the same way as they are inside of the pocket. He'd have to be deemed a defenseless player for that to truly be a helmet-to-helmet hit. It wasn't late by any means and it's a borderline argument to say that McCoy was defenseless. It's just such a split-second occurrence.


Steel Tappin'

Unfortunately a split second play does not make it legal. He hit him with his helmet and he was a passing QB at the time rather than a ball carrier as was described. Therefore the hit was deemed illegal.

 

[Steel President]

I guess my final argument is this - did it deserve a penalty? Probably. I guess. I'm not 100% sold that it did - I think it was just a very violent football play. However, I can live with the penalty.

I can live with a fine. Sure. A suspension though? No way. If anyone other than James Harrison made this hit they would not be suspended. Period. Goodell has it out for the guy, part of which is Harrison's fault, and he more than likely relishes this opportunity.

He might say he's making a statement with this suspension but that'd be a mouthful of hot air. The officials and league higher-ups are so very inconsistent with this helmet-to-helmet stuff. I've seen worse hits this year than the Harrison hit that failed to even draw a penalty.


Steel Tappin'

 

[JB]

I guess my final argument is this - did it deserve a penalty? Probably. I guess. I'm not 100% sold that it did - I think it was just a very violent football play. However, I can live with the penalty.

I can live with a fine. Sure. A suspension though? No way. If anyone other than James Harrison made this hit they would not be suspended. Period. Goodell has it out for the guy, part of which is Harrison's fault, and he more than likely relishes this opportunity.

He might say he's making a statement with this suspension but that'd be a mouthful of hot air. The officials and league higher-ups are so very inconsistent with this helmet-to-helmet stuff. I've seen worse hits this year than the Harrison hit that failed to even draw a penalty.


Steel Tappin'

If this hit deserves a penalty and a fine, then further penalty would be based partly on previous issues. Harrison has a laundry list. I understand you supporting your team, however if Ray Lewis did this to Ben R, you might see it differently.

 

[Kmac]

Not sure if anyone heard Mike and Mike this morning when they had Chris Carter on for his usual spot. They were talking about just how violent the game of football really is and how the casual fan really has no idea just how fast it is. Nothing that I havent heard before or didnt already know but kind of lends some thought to this discussion. Even when I played its very hard to play "100%" without making some mistakes or bad plays. But the coaches want you to atleast do it playing hard. I think this is what Harrison would probably say about his play. Im all for safety but at the same time this is football. And the refs really need to be more consistent with the calls.

 

[blugold]

Have you ever played football? If so, you'd recognize just how hard it is to get your helmet to the side every play. It's such a fast game. Sure, ideally, you'd love to see a picture-perfect form tackle each and every time but it'll never happen. Now, a player should never dip his helmet and use the crown - that's dangerous for both. However, no matter the rules, some degree of helmet-to-helmet contact will always exist in the game of football.

I played football in high school. Getting one's helmet to one side or the other is a choice of effort. I agree that there will be some helmet to helmet contact on some tackles. But to say on every tackle, is not correct in my opinion. Again, I see Clay Matthews, Brian Urlacher, Lance Briggs, Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis, Sean Lee, and many other players make huge hits without their head.

 

[c_ault]

I don't really agree with the suspension but that doesn't mean much. I'd think that Harrison would have learned something earlier in the year when he got his orbital bone crushed by a helmet to helmet on him.

 

[Steel President]

Unfortunately a split second play does not make it legal. He hit him with his helmet and he was a passing QB at the time rather than a ball carrier as was described. Therefore the hit was deemed illegal.

But a split-second doesn't necessarily make him defenseless either. According to the rules, QB's are not protected by helmet-to-helmet outside of the pocket. This would be a no-brainer if McCoy were in the pocket - I'd have no argument at all. However, the only way this is a penalty/worthy of further punishment is if you'd consider McCoy completely defenseless - helmet-to-helmet, whether it should be or not, isn't in play according to the rules UNLESS Harrison used the crown of his helmet.


Steel Tappin'

 

[Tmex]

I guess my final argument is this - did it deserve a penalty? Probably. I guess. I'm not 100% sold that it did - I think it was just a very violent football play. However, I can live with the penalty.

I can live with a fine. Sure. A suspension though? No way. If anyone other than James Harrison made this hit they would not be suspended. Period. Goodell has it out for the guy, part of which is Harrison's fault, and he more than likely relishes this opportunity.

He might say he's making a statement with this suspension but that'd be a mouthful of hot air. The officials and league higher-ups are so very inconsistent with this helmet-to-helmet stuff. I've seen worse hits this year than the Harrison hit that failed to even draw a penalty.


Steel Tappin'

You said it yourself... His own fault. You start creating a pattern and a reputation this is what happens. Harrison could still hit hard, and not get flagged. He chooses not too.

Have you ever played football? If so, you'd recognize just how hard it is to get your helmet to the side every play. It's such a fast game. Sure, ideally, you'd love to see a picture-perfect form tackle each and every time but it'll never happen. Now, a player should never dip his helmet and use the crown - that's dangerous for both. However, no matter the rules, some degree of helmet-to-helmet contact will always exist in the game of football.


Steel Tappin'

Yes and agreed, however... this players are elite athletes (most of them) and they can change angles or movements when they need too. I don't think football is every going to be safe and no injuries, but fact is Harrison knows what to do and what not to do... he keeps doing what he shouldnt.

 

[blugold]

You can understand my confusion I am sure.

Yes I do, I will add context. James Harrison doesn't HAVE to play the ball. But on this hit to McCoy he didn't. So the argument of, "He was making a play on the ball and ended up hitting him high." Doesn't stand for me. When Colt raised his arms to throw, Harrison did not react to the ball. Which is fine, but then get your head out of the way when making the hit.

 

[JB]

But a split-second doesn't necessarily make him defenseless either. According to the rules, QB's are not protected by helmet-to-helmet outside of the pocket. This would be a no-brainer if McCoy were in the pocket - I'd have no argument at all. However, the only way this is a penalty/worthy of further punishment is if you'd consider McCoy completely defenseless - helmet-to-helmet, whether it should be or not, isn't in play according to the rules UNLESS Harrison used the crown of his helmet.


Steel Tappin'

When a passer is outside the pocket area as in the case of Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy last night, he is still afforded the protection of Rule 12, Section 2, Article 13 (3), which prohibits defensive players from using their helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture, including by “forcibly hitting the passer’s head or neck area with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the passer by encircling or grasping him.


It was a bang bang play and his fans will cry that he is being singled out. Easy way to fix that is stop leading with your helmut. It wont affect his tackling one bit. He saw a chance to maul someone and took it and never gave it a 2nd thought about using the helmut as his choice of weapon. Is it right? Who knows, but it is illegal based on the play that took place.

 

[Steel President]

When a passer is outside the pocket area as in the case of Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy last night, he is still afforded the protection of Rule 12, Section 2, Article 13 (3), which prohibits defensive players from using their helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture, including by

 

[blugold]

I'm sorry, but how is this hit not with the crown of his helmet?

[video=youtube;IfFW-Yezv0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFW-Yezv0k[/video]

He dips his head to get his facemask out of the way.

 

[Steel President]

You said it yourself... His own fault. You start creating a pattern and a reputation this is what happens. Harrison could still hit hard, and not get flagged. He chooses not too.



Yes and agreed, however... this players are elite athletes (most of them) and they can change angles or movements when they need too. I don't think football is every going to be safe and no injuries, but fact is Harrison knows what to do and what not to do... he keeps doing what he shouldnt.

I agree with the last statement..to some extent. Sure, they're elite athletes but they're also going up against other elite athletes. Something has to give.

As far as his past, how long does that come into play? Do his past actions or his comments about Goodell harm him more in this case? Remember, Harrison has not had a personal foul or fine yet this season until now.




Steel Tappin'

 

[JB]

I agree with the last statement..to some extent. Sure, they're elite athletes but they're also going up against other elite athletes. Something has to give.

As far as his past, how long does that come into play? Do his past actions or his comments about Goodell harm him more in this case? Remember, Harrison has not had a personal foul or fine yet this season until now.




Steel Tappin'

He had 4 last year (3 hits to QB and 1 personal foul). Its very easy, dont lead with your helmet and none of this happens. He chose to, and must pay the price.

 

[Steel President]

I'm sorry, but how is this hit not with the crown of his helmet?

[video=youtube;IfFW-Yezv0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFW-Yezv0k[/video]

He dips his head to get his facemask out of the way.

He plants his facemask in the neck area of McCoy. If he'd have used the crown of his helmet here they might both be dead.


Steel Tappin'

 

[Steel President]

He had 4 last year (3 hits to QB and 1 personal foul). Its very easy, dont lead with your helmet and none of this happens. He chose to, and must pay the price.

But that's last year. Is there no statute of limitations on how far back they can go when determining punishments? Will those hits last year stain him in the eyes of the league forever?

I just have a hard time being convinced of this one. I've seen worse hits this season, without question, and we'll see worse hits as the year progresses. Zero consistency.


Steel Tappin'

 

[Doug the lefty]

Not sure if anyone heard Mike and Mike this morning when they had Chris Carter on for his usual spot. They were talking about just how violent the game of football really is and how the casual fan really has no idea just how fast it is. Nothing that I havent heard before or didnt already know but kind of lends some thought to this discussion. Even when I played its very hard to play "100%" without making some mistakes or bad plays. But the coaches want you to atleast do it playing hard. I think this is what Harrison would probably say about his play. Im all for safety but at the same time this is football. And the refs really need to be more consistent with the calls.

OEM, I agree with your post. I don't think a lot of people realize how much faster, stronger, and bigger the game is right now. Look at the athletes playing now. You have linebackers the size that O-lineman used to be and running in the 4's in their 40 times. I get annoyed with some of the rules (and inconsistency of them) but I also realize why they are there.