Question about lie angle on TM Burner 09 irons

[ShortButCrooked]

Guys, maybe you can help me answer this question. JB, I know you talk with the TM guys pretty often, so maybe next time you can ask, if you don't know already?

The lie angle on these irons is more upright when compared with other clubs such as my Cally X-20 Tours, Adams A4 or Ping i15s. After doing some research, it appears that other TaylorMade irons that come stock with their 85 gram re-ax steel shaft all are similar (Burner Plus, Tour Burner). Conversely, TM irons that come stock with heavier Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts have more traditional/standard lies.

Do you think or know if there is a dynamic with the ultra-light shaft where it flexes/bows a bit more on the downswing which causes the clubhead to be more flat at the bottom of the swing due to centrifugal force? Am I making sense?

The reason I am asking is I am interested in these irons. I've played standard lies in my current and previous irons, and I'd like to know whether I should get their standard set or look to have these bent flat by TM.

 

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Guys, maybe you can help me answer this question. JB, I know you talk with the TM guys pretty often, so maybe next time you can ask, if you don't know already?

The lie angle on these irons is more upright when compared with other clubs such as my Cally X-20 Tours, Adams A4 or Ping i15s. After doing some research, it appears that other TaylorMade irons that come stock with their 85 gram re-ax steel shaft all are similar (Burner Plus, Tour Burner). Conversely, TM irons that come stock with heavier Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts have more traditional/standard lies.

Do you think or know if there is a dynamic with the ultra-light shaft where it flexes/bows a bit more on the downswing which causes the clubhead to be more flat at the bottom of the swing due to centrifugal force? Am I making sense?

The reason I am asking is I am interested in these irons. I've played standard lies in my current and previous irons, and I'd like to know whether I should get their standard set or look to have these bent flat by TM.

You hit the nail on the head right there.Yes, light weight shafts will or should droop more then their heavier counterpart.

I experimented with light weight shafts for a short period and had to adjust my lie angles accordingly. My 3-4 irons were 4* up,5-7 were 3* and 8-pw were 2 up.Other wedges stayed normal due to keeping current shafts in there.

When I switched back I had to re-adjust them back to my standard.I found that to be pretty amazing

 

[JPsuff]

Guys, maybe you can help me answer this question. JB, I know you talk with the TM guys pretty often, so maybe next time you can ask, if you don't know already?

The lie angle on these irons is more upright when compared with other clubs such as my Cally X-20 Tours, Adams A4 or Ping i15s. After doing some research, it appears that other TaylorMade irons that come stock with their 85 gram re-ax steel shaft all are similar (Burner Plus, Tour Burner). Conversely, TM irons that come stock with heavier Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts have more traditional/standard lies.

Do you think or know if there is a dynamic with the ultra-light shaft where it flexes/bows a bit more on the downswing which causes the clubhead to be more flat at the bottom of the swing due to centrifugal force? Am I making sense?

The reason I am asking is I am interested in these irons. I've played standard lies in my current and previous irons, and I'd like to know whether I should get their standard set or look to have these bent flat by TM.

Without actually hitting the clubs on a lie board with the shafts you're considering, anything you decide would just be a guess. Different shafts have different characteristics and even if you could somehow quantify all of that, there's still the issue of how you actually swing a club.

Everyone loads a shaft differently and as such the "Dynamic Lie" (the actual lie position of the clubhead at impact during a swing) will be affected in one way or another depending upon how you personally load a club's shaft.

I work on my own clubs, and if I change shafts or change clublengths or swingweights (which I do from time to time) I always then check my lies on a lie board. My lie board consists of a 4' x 4' piece of 1/4" luan which I lay on my garage floor. I tape the soles of my clubs, make "contact" swings on my lie board and then I check to see where the tape has been scuffed. I have a very inexpensive loft and lie machine (not really a machine - more like a sophisticated vise) and I adjust my clubs accordingly as needed.

You can do all the math you want and get all of the opinions you can remember, but ultimately, until you actually swing whatever setup you're thinking about on a lie board and actually see how the clubhead touches it, you're just shooting in the dark.


-JP

 

[Johneli]

Guys, maybe you can help me answer this question. JB, I know you talk with the TM guys pretty often, so maybe next time you can ask, if you don't know already?

The lie angle on these irons is more upright when compared with other clubs such as my Cally X-20 Tours, Adams A4 or Ping i15s. After doing some research, it appears that other TaylorMade irons that come stock with their 85 gram re-ax steel shaft all are similar (Burner Plus, Tour Burner). Conversely, TM irons that come stock with heavier Dynamic Gold or Rifle shafts have more traditional/standard lies.

Do you think or know if there is a dynamic with the ultra-light shaft where it flexes/bows a bit more on the downswing which causes the clubhead to be more flat at the bottom of the swing due to centrifugal force? Am I making sense?

The reason I am asking is I am interested in these irons. I've played standard lies in my current and previous irons, and I'd like to know whether I should get their standard set or look to have these bent flat by TM.

Hey JP! Nice to see you here. OK, I just got a set of Burner 09s. Had a set of R7's. Is it just me or are the Burners a little less forgiving than R7s or any other iron for that matter. My lie angle on the stock Burners was too flat for me. Had to have em bent 2 degrees to get the bottom tip of the iron UP. Not real forgiving, but when hit "on the non existent screws," they fly much further than my R7's. I just expected them to be much easier to hit than they are (for me.) Another thing. IMO they are not meant to be used to scoop the ball. You must hit down and into them with a nice chunk of turf to get maximum solid feel and distance.

 

[ShortButCrooked]

Thanks guys.

Lefty, thanks for the confirmation. Makes perfect sense. It sounds like I should order this in TM's 'standard' lie if I go with the re-ax shaft, and maybe 1* flat if I go with a heavier shaft.

JP, yes I agree with you. I have my irons checked for correct lie. But the last two sets I've owned were standard lie. I'm trying to get a feel for the correct lie angle to order if I buy this set. I can go into a local store and have them fit me for the correct lie angle. but I intend to purchase this over the internet (the savings are substantial) and I don't feel it's appropriate for me to go get fitted at a local shop. So I'd like to take a stab at what would be the most likely fit for me and then have them adjusted locally if needed.

Johneli, thanks for your thoughts on the Burners. I'm kind of a sweeper, but these felt pretty good. I'm intruiged by the progressive sizing and particularly lofts/distances. I'm looking for a set of 7 irons that to go between my 22* hybrid and 54* sand wedge. Up until now, I've had to either have a gap at the high end or low end of irons. I chose low end because I can hit a 3/4 PW. But the Burners in 5-AW is perfect for my needs.

 

[JPsuff]

JP, yes I agree with you. I have my irons checked for correct lie. But the last two sets I've owned were standard lie. I'm trying to get a feel for the correct lie angle to order if I buy this set. I can go into a local store and have them fit me for the correct lie angle. but I intend to purchase this over the internet (the savings are substantial) and I don't feel it's appropriate for me to go get fitted at a local shop. So I'd like to take a stab at what would be the most likely fit for me and then have them adjusted locally if needed.

Well that's the idea; to have them adjusted, if necessary, once you get them. And you're right, if you can get within a degree or two of "dead on" beforehand, then that means that they won't have to be radically bent later on.


-JP

 

[ShortButCrooked]

Well that's the idea; to have them adjusted, if necessary, once you get them. And you're right, if you can get within a degree or two of "dead on" beforehand, then that means that they won't have to be radically bent later on.


-JP

Right, and I also have heard that these heads are a bit tricky to bend (I don't know why) and it is recommended to have TM do it when they are building the set if at all possible.

At this point, it's all kind of an experiment for me. I've never used ultra lightweight shafts on irons before. I may end up hating them and want to replace them with shafts that I am familiar with. But I'm hoping I can adapt to these.

 

[JB]

Most cast irons are made of harder metals than forged irons. Therefore they can be harder to bend after the fact.

 

[JPsuff]

Right, and I also have heard that these heads are a bit tricky to bend (I don't know why) and it is recommended to have TM do it when they are building the set if at all possible.

At this point, it's all kind of an experiment for me. I've never used ultra lightweight shafts on irons before. I may end up hating them and want to replace them with shafts that I am familiar with. But I'm hoping I can adapt to these.

Well, I had a bad experience with lightweight steel shafts, but that was a one time experiment. I've always used Dynamic Gold shafts and I love them but I've used them for as long as I can remember so I guess I'm just used to them.

Are these irons cast or forged?

Cast clubs can be bent more than most people think, but sometimes they require heat to soften them up, so if they are cast and they do need adjustment, make sure that whomever you take them to knows how to deal with cast heads. Lots of club guys say they do, but what someone says and what someone can actually do are often very different things, so be careful.

Good luck with your new clubs!


-JP

 

[Johneli]

Most cast irons are made of harder metals than forged irons. Therefore they can be harder to bend after the fact.

That is EXACTLY what the guy said who bent my Burners. He was sweating profusely because he was afraid he was going to break them. He managed about 2 degrees with GREAT difficulty and many operations per iron. I still keep checking the heads to see if they're loose.

 

[JB]

According to TM, with heat as mentioned before, you can bend, but they only recommend 2*.

 

[ShortButCrooked]

Thanks guys! Ya, these are cast and I understand it's more difficult to bend and also there are limits. I understand why now.

JP, thanks for the warning. There is a great outfit nearby that I trust to do work like this if needed. I've played DG's, Rifles and most recently PX's. Never anything less than 120 grams. But I must say my swings with the 85 gram reax shafts didn't feel awkward.