Your take on limiting technology in a golf ball?
Ndfan301
New member
While I will agree that it's not the perfect example for the course but I'll add my take. Augusta did get longer some years ago mainly because Tiger destroyed it. No argueing or denying that. But take a look at this years Masters. With all this new technology (balls, drivers, irons, etc) the winning score was still -9. And in the past 10 years the lowest score was -16. To me, that isn't exactly "destroying a classic course" as some have put it in this thread. That is only shooting a 68 each day. Consistency is what wins tournaments, not driving distance. Truth be told I'd give up my 250, 260, 275 yard drives in order to be consistant anyday of the week.
oiler3535
Active member
The more the better is what I'm saying. I'm a science minded guy, show me 1 black swan and I'll accept some swans are black. Show me 20 and I'll only accept the same. Show me thousands and I'll accept most swans are black. Show me a million and I'll accept all swans are probably black. But I'll never accept all swans are black unless you can show me every swan alive in the world. So I'll accept at Augusta National length and winning score do not seem to be strongly correlated.
All I'm saying is that because guys hit it longer, they started making courses longer in response. That's it.
Though, now that you've gotten me thinking, if you argue scores haven't changed since courses have gotten longer, I would argue that the scores not depending on yardage would be amazingly good logical evidence that the people who set up the courses do a damn good job deciding what yardages and setup to play at to keep the courses fair. Not harder or easier, just fair. Think of 'Alice in Wonderland': run as fast as they can just to stay in place. So in fact I would say since they lengthened courses to keep them fair, they think hitting the ball farther would either make courses too easy or too hard and that they have to adapt (i.e. make longer) to keep it fair.
My logic:
Assumption 1-Pros hit balls longer than 30 years ago on average.
Assumption 2-In the past 30 years course length on tour has risen a large amount on average.
Assumption 3 (Blu's)-average scores didn't change with lengthening.
4-therefore either a)both hitting the ball longer has no effect and longer courses have zero effect on how hard the game is, b)longer shots make the game easier and longer courses make the game harder so they cancel each other out, or c)longer shots make the game harder and longer courses make the game easier so they cancel each other out.
If there's an option besides a/b/c I'm missing, let me know. Problems with any of the assumptions? I would need to see data on #3 (in fact I don't like it that much without seeing a lot more data, but as it's Blu's point I'll give it for sake of the argument). Somehow I doubt a or c would tickle anybody's fancy. Hitting distance having no effect or making the game harder? That only leaves b. So, assuming those 3 things (again, if any not right I'd like to hear it, and be specific), maybe we do have to assume longer is harder, at least for the pros.
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oiler3535
Active member
I would love to see a chart of average distance from the tips of courses built in the last 30 years. Maybe only for par 68-74 courses or shown as a length per shot of par (i.e. 7200 yards, par 72, so length per shot par would be 100 yards, but a 6000 yard par 72 would be 83.3)
I'd happily give up an average of 2-3 yards of distance for every yard closer to centre I averaged for sure. Instead of being (for example) 280 down there and 25 yards off centre on average, I'd happily be 250 and only 15 off centre. Those aren't my numbers, just chose them for ease of example
My numbers likely 250 carry/15 off.
golfinFF
Active member
Ok oiler answer this-
In the last 30 yrs-----
Iron lofts have gotten stronger(by a club or two)
Clubs are more tech packed than ever(center of gravity, moi, balance, perimeter weighting)
Technology in shafts has gotten better
Fittings are now available for optimum launch, spin, decent angle
So wouldn't all the above make the ball fly further with out the ball being changed??????
In the last 30 yrs-----
Iron lofts have gotten stronger(by a club or two)
Clubs are more tech packed than ever(center of gravity, moi, balance, perimeter weighting)
Technology in shafts has gotten better
Fittings are now available for optimum launch, spin, decent angle
So wouldn't all the above make the ball fly further with out the ball being changed??????
But that decision is the fault of the course designers and owners.
Because it has been proven that a shorter course by pga tour standards, 7,100 yards, is plenty long enough to produce high scores for the top golfers in the world.
Ndfan301
New member
I'd happily give up an average of 2-3 yards of distance for every yard closer to centre I averaged for sure. Instead of being (for example) 280 down there and 25 yards off centre on average, I'd happily be 250 and only 15 off centre. Those aren't my numbers, just chose them for ease of example
Agree, but I'm not getting more consistent by having the USGA restrict the ball I hit. While I'd gladly trade, after I developed my consistency I'd like my yardage added on top of it. And I'd rather do it with today's golf balls, not a restricted one.
oiler3535
Active member
Have I said I think the ball is the problem? While I do think materials make the spin a lot better, I don't think they're the distance issue. I have said I think that's what the rule makers will target because it's easiest.
oiler3535
Active member
Of course it is. But if the consumer didn't want it they wouldn't build it unless hoping to lure pros.
You would gain some consistency with a shorter ball.
Fwiw, I have never played a course that had tees beyond 7,100 yards. I didn't play those tees.
But again, a non tour stop course that feels the need to lengthen its tees because the PGA tour players drive the ball long, that course is run by morons.
Johnny mojo
Mojovated!
I agree with everything here. I am a short hitter. I've come to accept it and I play from a forward tee, much to my chagrin as my buddies ride my a$$. The thing that really chaps me is if they roll back the ball, I'm gonna have to play from the dang ladies tees! It would be great for picking up chicks but alas, I'm married and love my bride. Lock it down, but any roll back should apply only to the pros IMHO. A roll back will cause round time to increase by at least 15 - 25%. Take it to the bank.
J.
Johnny mojo
Mojovated!
fastbasser
Active member
Got a 8:30 tee time today so I'm only on for a minute this morning. Yes, it is the fault of the designers. Problem is, it is PGA tour driven. With the distance of the new equipment, as Oiler3535 says they re "forced" to make longer courses to lure the PGA tour and major championships. It's worth millions to have a tour event on a course. The course gets famous and charges more. The designer gets famous and charges more. The equipment manufacturers make new equipment to entice us to hit it as long as the pro's and so on..
It's not us (the average player) they are concerned about.
It's ironic in a way,,, people want "change" but not all that comes along with it. BTW, you can be assured, an 8000 yd course is right around the corner. Cam you say 400 yd drives on the tour in the very near future!! You can bet Phil's "Frankenwood" is only a start of a new design to bypass the USGA's COR regulations...
With this being said, it will be fun to sit back and watch where this all goes in the next few years! Off to the course! A great day to all..
Which is the problem. Us golfers are the ones keeping 99% of the courses open. We are the game of golf. Not the PGA tour players.
The USGA needs to protect the game for us. Not the destination courses.
golfinFF
Active member
So what is exactly is the distance issue?
You have maybe 20 guys who average over 300 yards.
golfinFF
Active member
How?
I can hit my hybo just as far off line as my driver. Heck I hit any club in my bag just as far offline or as bad as driver.
A ball in the woods, water or OB is still there wether it went in by 10ft or 100.
golfinFF
Active member
Exactly this^^^^^^^
But I'm pretty sure the USGA doesn't see it that way. They are so out of touch with what happens on golf courses that aren't being played by the Pro's or their elitist clubs.
My home course is a pretty nice, affordable course that is run like a five star resort. They have a learning academy onsite, a chipping green, a putting green, a bent grass driving range, a fantastic bar and restaurant that can host all kinds of events, and one of the best maintained courses in NE Wisconsin. It has the most fairway of any course in the state. It has the shortest women's tees with only one forced carry, and from the tips it is barely over 7,000 yards on the card. Even with all of that fairway, the ratings from the back 2 tees is over par. It has never had a PGA Tour event, or even had a PGA Tour player play the course. I don't care about where the Tour plays. Other than being a golfer on TV, the Tour has not done a darned thing to keep my course open. Why should my enjoyment of my home course be affected by the longest hitters on the PGA Tour? It's absurd.
golfinFF
Active member
I agree with you dude! my local public tracts are nice are nice and I enjoy them. They will never see a PGA event and the pros do absolutely nothing to keep them open.
Like you I don't care where they play or what they do on those courses. Why you ask because I will never play there and I am no where near as good as them distance aside.
oiler3535
Active member
Simple mathematics. Look back through the pages, I've explained a few times.
I'm happy this thread got bumped again. It gets me all fired up.
fastbasser
Active member
LOL.. I try and tell myself NOT to get fired up over things I have no control over..
Reality is since the entire game is "money driven", when the USGA does back of on the distance ball, the manufacturers will come out with a replacement "distance ball" for us to buy.. :wink:
That will be less of a distance ball than the current option.
fastbasser
Active member
Then they will make longer clubs. Money money money... No matter what is done, the manufacturers will have a way to beat it! It gives them the opportunity to make bunches of money! In reality, most of us don't have the swing speed to compress the balls we are using now..
Since the USGA does changes every 4 years, we can use our supplies of good balls for a while..