CharlieMoy
Well-known member
You're trolling a bit dude. Settle lol
Forged Irons
You're trolling a bit dude. Settle lol
- Admin
- #77
Lets try to keep the conversations civil please.
deleebar
blargh
Much like others have said, i wouldn't take something from Mizuno (a manufacturer who has a lot invested in forged irons) as fact. That's like Ford releasing an article about how American Car companies are better.
Subjective? Perception? Feel? Sound? All these are up to the craftsman who wields them.
For me, there is a difference in feel, in sound, it is subjective and it is my perception. I love my i20s but no way do they compare to Mizuno in the feel department. Also, there is a difference in repeatable performance. Sometimes I do get jumpers with the i20s where the Mizuno's are more consistent with distances. Here's a good article for nay sayers... FORGED vs CAST
To the OP, go and try a bunch of Mizunos, I promise you'll find one you like!!
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deleebar
blargh
Also another question about forged. I heard you can bend forged irons more than cast(lie/loft), any truth to that?
- Admin
- #81
In most cases this is correct. It is due to a lot of factors in a general sense such as shape and metal typically used. To give you an example of the contrary, would be wedges. Many cast wedges can be bent just as far as any forged wedges. We watched a few cast Vokey wedges get bent close to 4 degrees on the tour van last year. This is due to softer metal being used and the style permitting it.
Fourwiggle
Member
Mainly because I'm over 40 and I like/need the forgiveness. I'm willing to trade off precision and feel for forgiveness...
No, no bigfoot.
So are all the other manufacturers who are saving money by using a cast method but charging you the same (or close) as a forged head. It's in their best interest as well...
I should have said that the "jumper" is only occasional and random, it's not all the time every time. Look, I have no problem with cast clubs as I play them but I do believe there is a difference. Thank you for the link as that was an interesting listen. Actually I'm not sure it's even proper to debate something that someone believes or feels. Some manufacturers choose to forge and mill their clubs and the process is more costly, much like putters. In the end, it's up to the person swinging the club to decide if it's an benefit to them or not...
Yes it is up to the individual. However I believe focusing on manufacturing method is wasted effort. If the guys at the highest level can't tell a difference, there's no way I can. And I haven't. And any jumper I believe is a result of the swing, not the process used to make the club.
Not forged irons, carbon steel irons. Carbon steel is a softer metal than stainless steel, so you have more options when it comes to bending them. I believe that there is SOME adjustability in stainless but Ive always heard that you have to be careful because its easy to break a stainless iron by bending it.
JB mentioned Vokeys, which are cast but they are also carbon steel, so they can be bent.
I'll throw this one out there: if theres no difference from cast to forged, then why do you not see any cast muscleback blades?
Fourwiggle
Member
Not exactly. Unfortunately I wouldn't believe that about Ford (no offense to Ford owners) because I know it to be factually incorrect. But to use your analogy Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are more expensive because of the materials and processes used to create the car. Would you think they are the same as a car that uses cheaper materials and processes to create theirs?
I respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree. And I don't worry with "what guys at the highest level" can or can't tell. I'm not at that level and never will be. I just believe what I believe...
Mulligan9111
Go Skers!!
Isn't that the whole point of debating though? To share your beliefs/feelings on certain subjects?
Everybody is going to have their preconceived notions about what is "right". The whole point to discussing any of it is to allow others to reach their own opinions on the matter. As you can see in this thread, there are many people who believe that the cast vs forged discussion is laughable, and others who feel there is a legitimate difference. These debates help those who have not yet made their own opinions on the matter to do so.
Fourwiggle
Member
I would love to debate something like that but some people feel too strongly about their opinions and the conversation/debate becomes adversarial instead of constructive. In the end, it's not worth it because it doesn't help anyone who might not have made their own opinions. But that would be great if we could...
Mulligan9111
Go Skers!!
It doesn't matter what types of materials each company uses, they all still break down at some point or another. The difference then comes to how much you have to pay to fix the thing. It still comes down to whether or not an individual thinks it's necessary to have all those special features the BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus have. I know plenty of people who can't live without their in-dash Navigation and heated leather seats, and I also know plenty of people who could care less about that stuff.
*edit* Sorry shouldn't take this off-topic anymore than it is.
Fourwiggle
Member
I didn't say they were better, I said "I wouldn't believe that about Ford (no offense to Ford owners) because I know it to be factually incorrect".
J.D. Power & Assoc
tgtt
Well-known member
I have to believe there has to be some merit to the process theory. Isn't this new vacuum process supposed to remove the bubbles. If it wasn't a real issue why go through the trouble of removing them.
I have a set of Mizuno MP-64 I adore, and I also ordered a set of G25 irons. I think that many years ago, cast clubs did not have the quality they do today. However, a properly struck shot feels great with cast or forged? I think so. Is one better than the other, no. Feel is subjective. I see a lot of pros playing cast clubs with no issues. I think the real advancement in feel is in shafts. A great cast club with a properly matched shaft feels amazing.
Agree with you on that one.
Personally, I reject the notion that there is no difference from cast to forged because of my background in powersports. In my younger days, I owned and raced snowmobiles, ATVs, motocross bikes and PWCs and it was a well-known fact that forged pistons were stronger and more durable than cast pistons because of the grain structure of the metal. Now, translate that to golf clubs and I see no reason why that wouldnt translate to feel and now a clubhead vibrates at impact.
Agree again. Anyone who thinks that a Ford is as good as a BMW, Merc or Lexus...really? Wow.
deleebar
blargh
Yeah, maybe not the best analogy. I guess my point is that Mizuno has so much invested in their "grain flow forging" process, so to me, it's pretty obvious that they would release an article to say as much. I would put much more merit into JB's link from an independent source with no affiliation. That is all. Like others have echoed, i think pros would have a better sense of any difference in feel if it existed...and as there are pros that use cast irons...probably not going to effect us mere mortals.
- Admin
- #95
This is the reason we went to him. He is one of the greatest club makers ever and has worked forever with both processes. He likes both processes. I knew he had tested both, but had no idea he had conducted a test with tour players and gotten the results he did. Have come to find out, what he did was have identical heads made with both processes all the way down to the metal used. Then had the same shaft and grip used and same ball used for testing.
SharkHat
Aquatic Headwear Fanatic
There are obvious differences between the forces that pistons must endure and the stresses imparted on a golf club.
Fourwiggle
Member
Agree with this, carbon vs stainless is an obvious difference and it's a good observation because wedges are one area where you can truly tell what is going on. I have Mizuno, Cleveland and Vokey wedges and while they all do the job (quite well in fact) there is a difference in feel and sound between them. The Mizuno and Cleveland are very close in various aspects but the Vokeys tend to be higher pitched and harder or click-ier off the face. Just my observation and opinion, you're not require to agree...
And perhaps this is why a difference can be detected because the same metals (materials) are not being used to create the heads. Stainless steel vs carbon steel will definitely feel and sound differently. If OEMs used carbon steel in cast heads it "might" be more identical. If that is the case though why would a manufacturer not just cast everything and forget forging altogether? This I don't know but I suspect (pure speculation) there is something that happens in the casting process that causes these companies to continue to forge their clubs. Not disagreeing with Mr. Hoeflich but there's a reason people do things and I just wonder what that reason it...
- Admin
- #98
Wedges come to mind in reading this (in no particular order).
And frankly its the same thing I have been saying for 5 years. I dont doubt that some have picked up a forged club and said "Man this feels better than anything I have ever hit". What I have tried to explain, is that the reason for that is less about the manufacturing process and more about these factors.
Grip
Ball
Shaft
Head shape
Metal material
Weighting
Club Ball Interaction
Even Marketing
Why does it still happen? Certain areas dictate and show how important marketing truly is. Just a brief time ago, there were distinct advantages in terms of a process. Its just not the case today as Hoeffy pointed out. I parallel this discussion to the graphite shaft vs steel shaft usage. Things have changed a lot in manufacturing over the last couple of decades.
Mulligan9111
Go Skers!!
Completely different situation here. A car doesn't feel different because it has forged pistons over a car that has cast pistons. Golf clubs don't have that much force on them that it's going to make a single bit of difference as to whether or not it's forged. Then you take into account that the shaft of the club and the grip can all change the "feel" of the golf club, and it becomes even less about the process used to make the club.
Try to pry a Ford F-150, or any type of pick-up for that matter, away from the farmers/ranchers/cowboys/etc. and see how far you get. Not everybody feels the same way you do about what makes a car company a good one.
Fourwiggle
Member
Point taken. So you're saying in terms of feel, performance, materials it all boils down to marketing - - and thus money. I have no problem admitting that, to a certain (large) extent, money is the prime motivator and that changes in materials and advancements in technology has brought the two processes closer together in terms of performance; however, for me to truly accept there is ZERO difference I would have to experience first hand two identical clubs (made by Mizuno or Miura) that were identical in every way except for the process of forging vs cast. Until that happens I suppose I'll hold my traditionalist dogmatic view of the separate processes.
You are a class act J.B. and I thank you for your knowledge, insight and discussion on a seemingly sensitive topic because beauty (feel) really is in the eye (hands) of the beholder...