Bullitt5339
New member
If you're not returning to square, then you have poor technique and need to address that separately. You'll never be a great putter if you're compensating for poor alignment though
What putter to get?
If you're not returning to square, then you have poor technique and need to address that separately. You'll never be a great putter if you're compensating for poor alignment though
mayday1775
New member
I tried the SeeMores yesterday and actually ended up with a Yes! putter. The SeeMore was nice and helped with keeping a square face a address but the Yes! was so much better in overall feel and roll. Putting is all about the confidence and I felt more confident with the less expensive, less hyped putter.
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cnosil
Active member
Technique is about doing the same thing repeatedly. Impact not alignment is what influences where the ball goes.
I think what you are saying is good in theory but not what is shown in actual measurements. Based on SAM Puttlab measurements (http://www.scienceandmotion.com/minicms/publications/ARGC07_SAM_PuttLab_Concept_and_Tour_Data.pdf):
The average of the Tour players for aiming the putter face is slightly right by 0.35°. What is quite surprising is the wide distribution of aiming over the group. The SD of 1.56° indicates that more than 55% of the players aim to a target outside of the hole on a straight 4-m putt.
The average path direction at impact points 0.8° to the left, thus in the opposite direction than the face. The compensation of an open face on a path pointing to the left allows the ball to still go straight. On average, the Tour player’s putter face is 1.1° open relative to the putter path at impact.
Ball direction is a combination of face at impact (82%) and path (18%).
Here are some sample measurements. I would consider Loren Roberts a good putter and he aligns 2* closed.
http://www.samsports.us/PuttLab Data/LorenRoberts.pdf
In 2007 Tiger Woods (ranked 34th) aimed 2.5* Right of his target and was 1* closed at impact since his path is right biased.
http://www.pgaclp.com/Portals/0/Tiger Woods SAM Putt.pdf
All your stats may be correct, but two things are likely true:
1) They are all attempting to return to square at impact
2) Their margin of error is a lot less than yours
The point being, it makes a lot more sense to start from a point of everything being square and try to return to it.
1) They are all attempting to return to square at impact
2) Their margin of error is a lot less than yours
The point being, it makes a lot more sense to start from a point of everything being square and try to return to it.
- Staff
- #30
That's awesome that pros do that, but they are pros. For amateurs the key is eliminating variables both IN the stroke and at setup and a properly aligned face does just that. It allows for more consistency and less streakiness.
cnosil
Active member
The point of the stats was to show that square alignment and square to target line are not required to be a good putter. Hopefully we can accept that that isn't a requirement to be a good putter.
From that point, all players have tendencies and we have 2 choices based on those dependencies:
1. you can accept those tendencies since you are likely to be able to duplicate those tendencies over time. This is fitting a putter to what you do.
2. you can make choices that may contradict those tendencies and train yourself to do something new. This is fitting you to a putter.
Both are completely acceptable alternatives. For me it is easier to achieve consistency by following my tendencies. If a player can retrain themselves to be consistent then they will become a good putter.
The first relies on finding a putter that fits your natural tendencies. I personally have a stance and posture that enables me to best see the line. This stance results in my shoulders being open to the target line which causes my putting path to be left biased. With a consistent path I now chose a putter that without manipulation will be open at impact to compensate for the left biased path. This is done be varying the characteristics of a putter such as offset and weight.
The second relies on your ability learn something new and being able to repeat it over time. You basically have to retrain your mind and body to see and feel square at setup.
Ultimately it is a question you have to answer for yourself; neither is wrong. If one was wrong everyone would putt the exact same way. All the available methods work. In the end it is all about how you apply it and can you be consistent with it.
kmanc
Legend in my own mind
Hello,
Finding the right putter, for the right putter stroke and putting style takes time. I don't believe in the "one size fits all". Everything about putting is finding a method that you can reproduce and then based on reproducing that stroke you become consistent. Whether you choose to get fit for a putter or buy on off the rack, just take the time.
There are only 3 things need to make a putt.
1. reading the green properly.
2. hitting the ball at the right speed.
3. hitting the ball down the intended target line.
Many of us, might already have the right putter. We miss putts because of a misread break or bad speed control.
One of the questions I ask, When I miss a putt, what was my very first thought? "Did I miss because I misread it?" Or "did I miss because the stupid putter doesn't feel right?"
When I miss, it is usually because of my impatience. I sometimes just don't take the time to read it right.
cheers
Finding the right putter, for the right putter stroke and putting style takes time. I don't believe in the "one size fits all". Everything about putting is finding a method that you can reproduce and then based on reproducing that stroke you become consistent. Whether you choose to get fit for a putter or buy on off the rack, just take the time.
There are only 3 things need to make a putt.
1. reading the green properly.
2. hitting the ball at the right speed.
3. hitting the ball down the intended target line.
Many of us, might already have the right putter. We miss putts because of a misread break or bad speed control.
One of the questions I ask, When I miss a putt, what was my very first thought? "Did I miss because I misread it?" Or "did I miss because the stupid putter doesn't feel right?"
When I miss, it is usually because of my impatience. I sometimes just don't take the time to read it right.
cheers
cnosil
Active member
I would add consistent stroke to your list as well. Because without a consistent stroke you can't reliably roll the ball down your intended line. If you can't roll the ball on your line, it becomes difficult to determine the right line and speed.
Fourwiggle
Member
Yes but in order to "hide the red dot" the setup has to change (for most people). Most golfers play the ball more toward their leading foot. Hiding the red dot requires a center (sternum) position setup. If one is not willing to change and buy into their system, hiding the red dot doesn't work. Unless you manipulate your head...
- Staff
- #35
I play my SeeMore's front of center, more toward my lead foot.
I to play the ball left of center.
kmanc
Legend in my own mind
Hi, look at some of the SeeMore's with a Whistle shaft. This will allow you to forward press and for some to even place the ball forward in their stance at address. On their website, there is a page titled Offset Whistle on their Products page. take a look
Fourwiggle
Member
Correction, the putter head would be center and the ball would be immediately left of that (for right handlers). Still, a more central position than most golfers play.
According to the SeeMore philosophy, you want the ball and putter head center stance for optimum setup consistency. If you guys are playing it toward your left foot and still hiding the dot then you MUST be manipulating your head position...
- Staff
- #39
I can assure you that I am not manipulating my head and there has been plenty of illustrations on the forum to prove it. Ball is forward, putter head is just forward of center for me.
Besides that, I used SeeMore putters for years before moving to the SPi system and played it more forward with no RST issues or head manipulation, only issues come with forward press.
T2GRN18
Active member
My SPI coach says you'd be surprised how many people forward press as a means for a trigger. Which will cause the RST to bleed. For me it's just 1/2 ball forward of center. Putter face lined up with the zipper.
- Staff
- #41
Yep, forward press introduces and ever changing variable, I don't care how some argue it, it presents a varied loft upon impact, you cannot assure it is the exact same time and time again. Its why forward pressers are usually on absolute fire or ice cold depending on the day. I know because I did it, hahaha.
Simple trigger I've gotten a lot of my buddies to use and I do from time to time still, take your thumbs off the putter, when they go back on, thats your stroke trigger.
T2GRN18
Active member
That is my trigger thanks to your recommendation when I went through my lessons. It just happens now
Fourwiggle
Member
Would love to see your setup since all the instruction I've ever seen/watched/read about wants everything centrally located at setup. Got any videos??
You're right about the forward press causing a lot of issues though (not just with SeeMore either). I still don't understand why Mickelson insists on doing it. (I don't forward press, btw)
- Staff
- #44
I think you're misconstruing just how forward, forward is in this case. For me, the center of the putter (not the face) splits the center of my body, putting the hands slightly forward at setup, but it does so without ANY press or angle issues, the RST is still completely hidden at setup for me. Stroke after stroke after stroke. In fact, I just got out one of my putters at address to see how far forward I can get it without seeing the RST and I can get it WAY out there, no head manipulation of the putter or me. I still have a central balance point, as to most golfers, I've not seen very many get the ball out to their lead foot unless they are hard forward pressers and game a heel shafted blade.
As for Phil, its because when he's hot he's hotter than anyone and he lives for those days. I think a lot of amateurs look at him and go "well Phil does it", its true, but he also plays and practices HELL of a lot more than us, same goes for the face angle information that was posted in here earlier, thats great that the pro's do it, but we aren't pros and as amateurs we need to remove as many variables as possible.
- Staff
- #45
T2GRN18
Active member
Dude, I have complete faith!This makes me smile.
See, I do know things from time to time.
mayday1775
New member
I have started practicing the left hand low method and I no longer need to use a forward press.
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Fourwiggle
Member
You're correct. My impression of your setup was that it was more toward your front (ah-la driver setup position) foot rather than a ball or two forward. And I can see (imagine) how that works...
Thanks for the clarification!!
Fourwiggle
Member
Yes, I've watched that video several times. My impression of what you and Jman were saying was that ball position more forward than a ball or two. This setup I have no issue with...