Shaft fitting

[capt.dru]

A couple of weeks ago, I jumped on a shaft optimizer to see what shafts it would recommend. I have felt that my G20's have been about 1 club shorter than my previous irons. The optimizer spit out the DG XP S-300's and the KBS Tours in S flex. It also gave me a Nippon shaft as a third choice but I didn't get a chance to test them. Since the Ping fitting cart does not have the XP's, I tested them on the Mizuno EZ head and I also got some base numbers with my G20 6i with the CFS-S shaft and the KBS Tour S. All these shafts feel good and I can easily see myself hitting any of them. My question is based on these numbers, which shaft should I go with. The tighest dispersion was with the CFS shaft. Here are the results:

The first one is with the CFS shaft and the second is with the KBS Tour with the G20 head.

These are the results with the Mizuno EZ heads.

 

[capt.dru]

Gonna try to hit a couple more shafts today. Maybe the CTL's or the XP 105's.

 

[Hawk]

Definitely does look like the CFS gave you some less severe misses. Tour Stiff gave you some good distance though. Might try it again to see if you see the same thing.

 

[TripleBogieTim]

Definitely does look like the CFS gave you some less severe misses. Tour Stiff gave you some good distance though. Might try it again to see if you see the same thing.

I was gonna to say the exact same thing, it depends on whether you are looking for distance or more accuracy...the Tour Stiff was easily the best in distance but the CFS seemed more forgiving for you.

I like Hawks idea....test just those 2 again and see what you get.

 

[i-Guy]

I did not really see enough difference to make a decision one way or another...although I did notice that the KBS Tour did create more back spin and I can tell you from experince that I have had problems with these shafts ballooning on me some and causing distance control problems...just to compare I play a high spinning fade on every shot. I did continue to play them for a long time because I just "loved" the feel through impact of the KBS Tour shaft...

So to me seeing not much difference I would think the next question would be which one felt the best to you??? Good luck!

 

[kmanc]

Hi. First I gave problems with all of them.
I have to believe the "efficiency" is their term for smash factor? I have never seen a smash factor of 1.45 on a 6 iron. And I notice it never changes. When you do the math, smash factor does change, but it is not possible to have a smash of 1.45 on a 6 iron. Max according to Flightscope and Trackman is 1.35 to maybe 1.38.
The first shaft, you have a 15 yard dispersion and it get worse as you progress through the fitting. The last shaft, you have a 62 yard dispersion left to right, that is a variation of 180 feet off target.
On some of your shots, when I look at the Azmuith, in relationship to the side spin, the numbers don't match up to the yards off line.
My feeling. These numbers do not represent an accurate representation of what you are actually doing.
I would go find another launch monitor to use.
flightscope smash factors maximum on 6 iron is 1.40.

 

[bellairemi]

I agree - the numbers do not add up at all. I would not base any decisions on numbers from this launch monitor.

Hi. First I gave problems with all of them.
I have to believe the "efficiency" is their term for smash factor? I have never seen a smash factor of 1.45 on a 6 iron. And I notice it never changes. When you do the math, smash factor does change, but it is not possible to have a smash of 1.45 on a 6 iron. Max according to Flightscope and Trackman is 1.35 to maybe 1.38.
The first shaft, you have a 15 yard dispersion and it get worse as you progress through the fitting. The last shaft, you have a 62 yard dispersion left to right, that is a variation of 180 feet off target.
On some of your shots, when I look at the Azmuith, in relationship to the side spin, the numbers don't match up to the yards off line.
My feeling. These numbers do not represent an accurate representation of what you are actually doing.
I would go find another launch monitor to use.
flightscope smash factors maximum on 6 iron is 1.40.

 

[i-Guy]

I have never seen a smash factor of 1.45 on a 6 iron.

Not to get too fftopic: but how is the "smash factor" calculated...do you know? And if so what is its relevance when comparing shafts?

 

[Hawk]

Guys, it's not uncommon for smash to be a calculated value based on ball speed alone and essentially meaningless. I don't know why they do it, but it's nothing new with photo based units.

 

[sleuth]

Guys, it's not uncommon for smash to be a calculated value based on ball speed alone and essentially meaningless. I don't know why they do it, but it's nothing new with photo based units.

**EDIT**

I take back what I said. I reviewed my old launch results with Foresight's older software and it is in fact assuming a 1.45 smash factor. So you're right Hawk as usual :arrogant:

Guessing how it works then is they do this in order to calculate the relative swing speed based on ball speed, or vice versa.

 

[Hawk]

I guess I've never used a foresight store monitor. From what I've seen many places though, it's not really a worthwhile stat on many monitors.

 

[sleuth]

I guess I've never used a foresight store monitor. From what I've seen many places though, it's not really a worthwhile stat on many monitors.

I edited. You're right, you're right. I'll buy you a beer next year :blowkiss:

 

[Hawk]

I think we should just take one off what I owe you for the two butt-whippings lol.

I never pay attention to swing speed on many either, though I do think the aboutGolf sims are reasonably accurate there. I know the Vector I use assumes a Smash Factor and then calculates the swing speed. Little do they know how often I miss the center of the face :\

 

[kmanc]

Not to get too fftopic: but how is the "smash factor" calculated...do you know? And if so what is its relevance when comparing shafts?

Hi. It is ball speed divided by swing speed. It is an easy calculation. It is a direct correlation to on-center impacts.
Driver, max is 1.50. 6 iron max 1.40.
shaft weight, length, swing weight, flex can have an impact on on center strikes. Which is reflected in smash.
Smash factor is always calculated and has great value in fitting. That is why it is there. If you know how to interpret the results.

 

[kmanc]

Hi, I'll finish my answer. If you use a machine that has a fixed, assumed smash factor. Then it is useless information.
The flightscope and Trackman, do not assume a fixed smash. It is calculated based on shot by shot actual data.
The first indication of an off center impact is the smash factor.
On a driver, the smash on 1.50 and is max for an on center strike. Ball speed 150 mph, divided by swing speed of 100 ohm. Now, how is smash factor useful?
If you have a smash factor of 1.52 with a ball speed of 152 mph, and a swing speed of 100 mph, this tells me you had on impact on the toe of the driver face. Because the toe ,of the club is traveling faster than the center of the club head.
The toe impact is not efficient. The lost distance, and the spin created from the toe impact.
Now, how this helps in fitting. As you change, shaft length, shaft weight, shaft balance point, swing weight, lie angles, this all changes the on center impacts, which it reflected in the smash factor.
The flightscope, always publishes data as if it is a on center impact. So if, the smash factor for that shot, is out of range, then you can determine if it is heel, or toe impacts.
Also, if you have an impact label on the face, and it shows an on center impact, but the smash factor is high or low from the expected value, then you can determine that the club is being de-lofted or increase loft at impact.
A 6 iron for example. The max smash factor is 1.40. If is see a smash of 1.30, then I look at the spin loft, and spin axis numbers. This tells me if it is a heel shot, or and impact high on the face. If the spin loft is high, and the spin axis, is zero. It is a straight high shot. This tells me the person hit high and center. They increased the loft of the club at impact. The higher the loft on a club the lower the smash factor.
but the first indication is the smash factor. .
The shaft selection, causes changes in impact on the face of the club. Change the swing weight, and it changes on center impacts and smash factor changes. The total weight do the shaft, has a greater influence, on your ability to make consistent on center impacts.
The other way smash factor is useful.
If you hit one brand 6 iron and the smash is 1.40, then you hit another brand and the smash factor is 1.42, then you hit a 3rd brand 6 iron and the smash factor is 1.39. If all impacts are on center, the. You can assume the lofts between club are different. On 6 iron maybe strong lofted and one may be weak loft. So if you hit one brand iron longer than another, and all impacts are on center it maybe because of the loft differences between brands or model.

 

[Speedliner]

Good info kmanc. I'm certain the folks that did my fittings never looked at smash factor, only distance and dispersion. Now I wonder if some degree of optimization was left on the table.

 

[kmanc]

Thanks. But smash factor is only a tiny part of the puzzle. There are so many other variables that must be taken into account.
For me, everything has an influence on everything else.
And because I am an issue ridden individual, no fitting is ever to my satisfaction. There is always some degree of optimization left.
"The enemy of good, is better".

 

[capt.dru]

Thanks. But smash factor is only a tiny part of the puzzle. There are so many other variables that must be taken into account.
For me, everything has an influence on everything else.
And because I am an issue ridden individual, no fitting is ever to my satisfaction. There is always some degree of optimization left.
"The enemy of good, is better".

Thanks for the info! I will go try another LM and see what the differences are.

 

[i-Guy]

Thanks. But smash factor is only a tiny part of the puzzle. There are so many other variables that must be taken into account. For me, everything has an influence on everything else. And because I am an issue ridden individual, no fitting is ever to my satisfaction. There is always some degree of optimization left. "The enemy of good, is better".

Thanks "kmanc" for all of this information...you know now I don't think I have ever been properly fitted...I had even started to conclude that fitting is sort of "Bunk" from the standpoint that my swing as an 8 handicap is not consistent enough to fit exactly??? As an example do you want to be fitted to your best swing or your worse? If you believe this is a game of managing your misses than I would think you want to be fitted to your worse scenario...heck I know that when I am swinging well that I can bascially hit any iron in the store accurately. Don't get me wrong as I think Pro's and very good Amateur's should get fitted to optimize their game but for me??? I think fitting for most handicaps above 5 is a matter of what club when you look down do you have confidence you can hit...and finding a shaft that u like the way it feels through impact but yet manages your spin to the desired ball flight you want to play??? Just my 2 cents as a starting point for fitting...after that come back and see me when your swing has some consistency to it and I can then analyze all the things mentioned on this thread.

 

[Speedliner]

Shaft fitting

Thanks. But....There is always some degree of optimization left.
.

Yes of course and the thing that needs the most optimization is me. But every once in a while there is that good swing that falls shorter than expected or draws more than it should have....

 

[kmanc]

My fitting philosophy is. I fit to make your good shots better, and more consistent. I do not care about making your bad shots better.
If I do my job correctly, I will make your current good shot much better, more consistent and improve your dispersion. If I have done this, then the number of Your bad shots and inconsistencies with also decrease.
Studies have shown, that the golfer that does not benefit for fitting is the higher handicapper, because the need lessons first.
I get a lot of people that tell me the same thing, that fitting for their game is bunk!!!
this maybe true if you go to a fitter that fits out of a fit cart by any of the club manufacturers.
KB. If you think your game cannot improve by a good fitting with a handicap at 8, then you have not had a proper fitting.
I truly believe part of the problem with fittings, is that a bad fitting hurts more than it helps. A mediocre fitter, does more harm than good.
A teaching pro, that tells you he can teach you to swing and correct swing flaws that is created by an ill fitted club, does more harm than good.
Fitting does not take the place of a lesson. I always believe a lesson first, then fitting.
But a bad fitted club, cause problems a lesson cannot correct.
I realize this is a poor analogy. Sorry
if you put on a pair of patent leather dress shoes, can you run a marathon in them? Yes. Can you perform well in them? Maybe. Can a coach teach you a technique to perform better wearing these shoes? Yes.
Now what happens when you get fitted for a proper running shoe? Does it make your lessons and coaching better? Does it optimize your performance? Yes.

 

[i-Guy]

KB. If you think your game cannot improve by a good fitting with a handicap at 8, then you have not had a proper fitting.

I believe that to be true...actually the PGA Pro I started wokring on my swing with last year (before shoulder surgery) has said that once we get to a point with my swing he is going to want me to be fitted...and not by a store (not that there aren't some good fitters out there) but by a guy locally (sponsered by Titleist) who charges for them and many good players I know go to him...maybe after my shoulder is fully recovered (PT said Spring to be 100%) and I can start working on my swing again I will try this fitter.