Driver purchase question for the shaft experts

[Bullitt5339]

My swing speed has been slowing down a lot, so it's time to get into a lighter flex shaft so that I don't have to swing as hard, which makes my back ache after each round.

I went in and hit the Cleveland Classic XL (non-custom) with the JDL4 R and S today and my spin numbers were through the roof. I was seeing over 4000rpm even with the stiff shaft. They had a Classic Custom with the JDL5 R flex in 10.5 and my spin numbers were about 4000 with a 120mph ball speed.

So obviously even with my swing slowing down, I still need a lower spinning shaft like I have with my 'ahina.

I have the chance to buy a slightly used (and cheap) Classic Custom 10.5 with a R flex 6M3 Black Tie. I've only hit the Black Tie in a stiff when I was swinging well and found it to be a little stiffer than my 'ahina but have never touched an R flex Black Tie. Theoretically, the Regular Flex Black Tie should be exactly what I need but there's no way for me to hit it beforehand.

Given the fact that I like the 'ahina 70S but it's becoming too much shaft for me handle, do you think the 6M3 in Regular Flex would take some spin off like I want? Is it worth a $100 gamble?

 

[Hawk]

I don't think it's going to take off nearly as much spin as you think. Sounds to me like you're coming across the ball. Are you fading it? My experience was that when I was that high for that reason nothing helped.

 

[Bullitt5339]

I don't think it's going to take off nearly as much spin as you think. Sounds to me like you're coming across the ball. Are you fading it? My experience was that when I was that high for that reason nothing helped.

My average swing path was -2, so I did't think it was that bad. I was actually hitting it straight or drawing it. On bad shots, I hooked it 25 yards. When I hit my Amp Cell with the 'ahina, I was seeing 2900-3000 spin. They didn't have any really good shafts for me to hit to compare, but the PXv 5.5 was giving me about 3400 in the X Hot. The Kuro Kage Regular in the Covert was 3300ish.

 

[Bullitt5339]

I wonder if I was subconsciously changing my swing because I knew I was hitting a 9* club and I have been playing a higher lofted driver for the past few years and that caused some of the spin? I'm not a shaft or swing expert, but that's the only thing I can think of.

 

[Hawk]

Wow that's crazy. That's some very high spin. I don't know man. It might help, but that's a really big number start at.

 

[blugold]

Bullitt - One thing to keep in mind, your swing as a touch of a over the top move. In general those spin numbers are going to be higher. A shaft won't fix that. Its a swing issue that can be fixed

 

[Bullitt5339]

Wow that's crazy. That's some very high spin. I don't know man. It might help, but that's a really big number start at.

Yep, I'm confused completely. It's supposed to be a low spin driver and my numbers with the Amp Cell, minus my swing speed and ball speed numbers were very similar to what I've seen before.

I guess for $100, it's worth picking up the Custom with the Regular Flex Black Tie in it as an experiment. If worse comes to worse, I can pull the Black Tie, put an Amp Cell Adapter on it and be happy.

 

[Bullitt5339]

Bullitt - One thing to keep in mind, your swing as a touch of a over the top move. In general those spin numbers are going to be higher. A shaft won't fix that. Its a swing issue that can be fixed

Yeah. I was just confused by the huge change in numbers.

I'm still thinking it may be worth trying the Black Tie in regular flex to try to get the low launch/low spin that I like from the 'ahina without buying a $350 shaft. If I need more loft than I can get out of the Classic Custom, I can always pull the shaft and install it in my Amp Cell.

I guess I'm just trying to justify to myself trying the Black Tie in Regular Flex.

 

[blugold]

Yeah. I was just confused by the huge change in numbers.

I'm still thinking it may be worth trying the Black Tie in regular flex to try to get the low launch/low spin that I like from the 'ahina without buying a $350 shaft. If I need more loft than I can get out of the Classic Custom, I can always pull the shaft and install it in my Amp Cell.

I guess I'm just trying to justify to myself trying the Black Tie in Regular Flex.

The black tie is a different animal than the 'ahina. Much stiffer feel.

 

[twentytwomonk]

I'd say if nothing else, the Black Tie wouldn't bee too hard to unload if it didn't work for you.

 

[Bullitt5339]

The black tie is a different animal than the 'ahina. Much stiffer feel.

Even going 10 grams lighter and in a lighter flex? There is nowhere close to here that even has a black tie in regular flex in any club to try out. I liked the stiff, but my swing speed was 10+ mph faster back then.

 

[deafninja]

That is my spin numbers. I have a descending angle of attack therefore hitting down on it and that was imparting the spin on it. I worked with a coach and we worked more on hitting up on the ball and staying behind it and saw a swing speed increase with the changes in my swing. That is if AOA is down. Its not necessarily a bad thing as I was very accurate with my driver due to the backspin. With the change I did have a decrease in accuracy so its a tradeoff on my end.

Now as for shaft recommendations I am going to throw a couple out there. Take a look at the Arther Extreme Xcaliber 6+ tour or regular. Tour (black) is going to be very stiff tip and the non tour (red) while a stiff tip is less stout than the tour. The shafts are very inexpensive for the quality you get.

 

[majBC]

Bullitt5339 It sounds like to me you are hitting down on the ball and possibly OTT. I think the first thing that could help is to try to hit up on the ball and maybe tee the ball forward just a bit to help with this. You could also try to get in a stance which requires you to reach for the ball a little, but be careful not to get so far away that you lunge for the ball. You want your arms to have to reach for the ball not your whole body. It is an extension drill, be careful as most everything you do with the golf swing leads to good results and then suddenly your over doing it.

As far as equipment goes a heavier overall club can sometimes help with an OTT move. The best way to achieve this is usually a heavier shaft as you want a balanced weight increase not a head heavy or grip heavy golf club. The swingweight will have to be adjusted if you have a preference.

 

[Bullitt5339]

Bullitt5339 It sounds like to me you are hitting down on the ball and possibly OTT. I think the first thing that could help is to try to hit up on the ball and maybe tee the ball forward just a bit to help with this. You could also try to get in a stance which requires you to reach for the ball a little, but be careful not to get so far away that you lunge for the ball. You want your arms to have to reach for the ball not your whole body. It is an extension drill, be careful as most everything you do with the golf swing leads to good results and then suddenly your over doing it.

As far as equipment goes a heavier overall club can sometimes help with an OTT move. The best way to achieve this is usually a heavier shaft as you want a balanced weight increase not a head heavy or grip heavy golf club. The swingweight will have to be adjusted if you have a preference.

I'm definitely a bit OTT, especially when my back is bothering me. My instructor and I are working on it because on video you can see that my sequencing is off. When we do slow motion drills working on getting my swing to start from the bottom, it's beautiful. I watch the club come into the ball from the inside and into a great impact. just can't bring it to the full speed swing yet, when I try to think about it, I end up just spinning my hips out and get all out of whack. It's definitely something we are working on.

Right now, I just need to get something that resembles my 'ahina profile, just in a less firm flex since my swing speed has dropped from 106 a couple months ago to 94-96mph today and I don't see it getting any better. The 'ahina was magic for my tee shots, before it I was ballooning everything/everywhere. But I have to put a lot behind it to load it right now and it's not doing my back any favors. You may see me making a lot of changes to my bad and every one of them are me letting go of my old ego and get back into a set of clubs that are fit for me on my average day instead of my best day. There's a lot more average days than best days out there lately.

This getting older and body falling apart is upsetting. I went from a 12hc to a 14hc to a 26. Worked hard to get back to an 18 a few months ago and then it started creeping up again. I have the equipement and the understanding to be a 10hc, whether I have the body or not is seeming a little out of range at this point. My new teaching pro that I've got 2 lessons with says he can get me to a 12 before the season really starts. He simply says that I've had too many people who were teaching me to play golf with no idea of my physical limitations. My last instructor wanted me to fit into his mold and swing like he does, but that was impossible. My new pro has me working on things that require constant attention but make a huge difference in the way you hit the ball, He is being a nazi about my grip...... well I needed that, He's also got me working on a more narrow stance which he says will help me transfer my weight and will be easier to teach the proper sequence in the swig.

 

[majBC]

I'm definitely a bit OTT, especially when my back is bothering me. My instructor and I are working on it because on video you can see that my sequencing is off. When we do slow motion drills working on getting my swing to start from the bottom, it's beautiful. I watch the club come into the ball from the inside and into a great impact. just can't bring it to the full speed swing yet, when I try to think about it, I end up just spinning my hips out and get all out of whack. It's definitely something we are working on.

Right now, I just need to get something that resembles my 'ahina profile, just in a less firm flex since my swing speed has dropped from 106 a couple months ago to 94-96mph today and I don't see it getting any better. The 'ahina was magic for my tee shots, before it I was ballooning everything/everywhere. But I have to put a lot behind it to load it right now and it's not doing my back any favors. You may see me making a lot of changes to my bad and every one of them are me letting go of my old ego and get back into a set of clubs that are fit for me on my average day instead of my best day. There's a lot more average days than best days out there lately.

This getting older and body falling apart is upsetting. I went from a 12hc to a 14hc to a 26. Worked hard to get back to an 18 a few months ago and then it started creeping up again. I have the equipement and the understanding to be a 10hc, whether I have the body or not is seeming a little out of range at this point. My new teaching pro that I've got 2 lessons with says he can get me to a 12 before the season really starts. He simply says that I've had too many people who were teaching me to play golf with no idea of my physical limitations. My last instructor wanted me to fit into his mold and swing like he does, but that was impossible. My new pro has me working on things that require constant attention but make a huge difference in the way you hit the ball, He is being a nazi about my grip...... well I needed that, He's also got me working on a more narrow stance which he says will help me transfer my weight and will be easier to teach the proper sequence in the swig.

Great to hear Bullitt5339, I was/am not trying to get in the way of your lessons. Just ignore my advice as you should follow what your coach is trying to teach you. I think the grip is very important and it sets the table for the rest of the swing and how the body reacts to it. I think if I were you I would ask my coach about shaft flex and weight of clubs and what he thought would help someone in your physical situation. Good luck and I'm sure you will get it all squared away in time. Always have fun with golf and look at the aging and injuries as just more obstacles to overcome to enjoy this game we all love.

 

[BIGBALL]

I'm definitely a bit OTT, especially when my back is bothering me. My instructor and I are working on it because on video you can see that my sequencing is off. When we do slow motion drills working on getting my swing to start from the bottom, it's beautiful. I watch the club come into the ball from the inside and into a great impact. just can't bring it to the full speed swing yet, when I try to think about it, I end up just spinning my hips out and get all out of whack. It's definitely something we are working on.

Right now, I just need to get something that resembles my 'ahina profile, just in a less firm flex since my swing speed has dropped from 106 a couple months ago to 94-96mph today and I don't see it getting any better. The 'ahina was magic for my tee shots, before it I was ballooning everything/everywhere. But I have to put a lot behind it to load it right now and it's not doing my back any favors. You may see me making a lot of changes to my bad and every one of them are me letting go of my old ego and get back into a set of clubs that are fit for me on my average day instead of my best day. There's a lot more average days than best days out there lately.

This getting older and body falling apart is upsetting. I went from a 12hc to a 14hc to a 26. Worked hard to get back to an 18 a few months ago and then it started creeping up again. I have the equipement and the understanding to be a 10hc, whether I have the body or not is seeming a little out of range at this point. My new teaching pro that I've got 2 lessons with says he can get me to a 12 before the season really starts. He simply says that I've had too many people who were teaching me to play golf with no idea of my physical limitations. My last instructor wanted me to fit into his mold and swing like he does, but that was impossible. My new pro has me working on things that require constant attention but make a huge difference in the way you hit the ball, He is being a nazi about my grip...... well I needed that, He's also got me working on a more narrow stance which he says will help me transfer my weight and will be easier to teach the proper sequence in the swig.

Bullit - I am going through much the same thing as you. Some degenerative issues in back / neck that aren't going to get much better - just trying to keep them from getting worse. I agree with your coach about too many other instructors not dealing with the physical limitations. I play with a legit 9 HC'er who has had serious physical issues (really bad car accident , knee replacement, neck fusion ) so he saw a guy who told him that his swing was not going to be like it was. He had him use a shorter backswing and a stronger grip, and he still plays really well. I know you'll get it figured out man!

 

[adamw238]

Even going 10 grams lighter and in a lighter flex? There is nowhere close to here that even has a black tie in regular flex in any club to try out. I liked the stiff, but my swing speed was 10+ mph faster back then.

There is a huge difference between the two for sure. The 'ahina plays like a A flex compared to the Black Tie. I don't think there's much torque in the tip and it's stiff all the way through. Even at 10g lighter, you would still need to have a quick transition to get that shaft loaded.

I would go get my swing evaluated and see if there's a reason why you're generating such high spin numbers. I was in the same boat a couple of years ago. Tried 5 different shafts, all with the same results. I went and had my swing evaluated and found that there was no shaft in the world that was going to bring down my spin numbers. Ended up taking lessons and now have my spin down to about 2000 with a baby draw.

 

[Bullitt5339]

Interesting that this thread came back up. Yesterday I was hitting balls, trying to find that perfect shaft and I happened to grab the Custom again, but this time in 10.5* with the Fubuki Tour 53. My first 2 shots were high and short, over 4000rpm again, but dead on line. There was a different fitter there and he said that I wasn't coming too far OTT to produce those numbers but I was coming in a bit steep and that definitely wouldn't help the spin numbers but they shouldn't be that high. He grabbed some impact tape and it turns out that I was hitting the ball about 1/2" high on the clubface, which along with a descending path into the ball would definitely cause those huge spin numbers.

He gave me some regular tees instead of the rubber thing so that I could tee the ball down lower and it made a pretty huge difference. My launch angle stayed at 15*, but my spin numbers came down to 3300, but I was still descending down on the ball 2*. I called my instructor and told him that and he said "no bueno, we want you hitting up 3-5 degrees" I did gain about 25 yards simply from finding the center of the clubface and switching to a regular flex. I definitely have no business in a real stiff shaft with my swing right now. I was hitting 92-93mph yesterday.

So I definitely need a softer shaft, but the majority of my spin problems are from contact too high on the face and angle of attack.

 

[Hawk]

That's great info dude. Thanks for the update.

 

[adamw238]

Interesting that this thread came back up. Yesterday I was hitting balls, trying to find that perfect shaft and I happened to grab the Custom again, but this time in 10.5* with the Fubuki Tour 53. My first 2 shots were high and short, over 4000rpm again, but dead on line. There was a different fitter there and he said that I wasn't coming too far OTT to produce those numbers but I was coming in a bit steep and that definitely wouldn't help the spin numbers but they shouldn't be that high. He grabbed some impact tape and it turns out that I was hitting the ball about 1/2" high on the clubface, which along with a descending path into the ball would definitely cause those huge spin numbers.

He gave me some regular tees instead of the rubber thing so that I could tee the ball down lower and it made a pretty huge difference. My launch angle stayed at 15*, but my spin numbers came down to 3300, but I was still descending down on the ball 2*. I called my instructor and told him that and he said "no bueno, we want you hitting up 3-5 degrees" I did gain about 25 yards simply from finding the center of the clubface and switching to a regular flex. I definitely have no business in a real stiff shaft with my swing right now. I was hitting 92-93mph yesterday.

So I definitely need a softer shaft, but the majority of my spin problems are from contact too high on the face and angle of attack.

That's great to hear.

 

[bellairemi]

One thing we know from Trackman is that a negative AOA does not in and of itself cause increased spin rates. A negative AOA however may be a result of swing issues that do cause more spin (such as an in to out swing and less than square contact).

Interesting that this thread came back up. Yesterday I was hitting balls, trying to find that perfect shaft and I happened to grab the Custom again, but this time in 10.5* with the Fubuki Tour 53. My first 2 shots were high and short, over 4000rpm again, but dead on line. There was a different fitter there and he said that I wasn't coming too far OTT to produce those numbers but I was coming in a bit steep and that definitely wouldn't help the spin numbers but they shouldn't be that high. He grabbed some impact tape and it turns out that I was hitting the ball about 1/2" high on the clubface, which along with a descending path into the ball would definitely cause those huge spin numbers.

He gave me some regular tees instead of the rubber thing so that I could tee the ball down lower and it made a pretty huge difference. My launch angle stayed at 15*, but my spin numbers came down to 3300, but I was still descending down on the ball 2*. I called my instructor and told him that and he said "no bueno, we want you hitting up 3-5 degrees" I did gain about 25 yards simply from finding the center of the clubface and switching to a regular flex. I definitely have no business in a real stiff shaft with my swing right now. I was hitting 92-93mph yesterday.

So I definitely need a softer shaft, but the majority of my spin problems are from contact too high on the face and angle of attack.

 

[BIGBALL]

" I called my instructor and told him that and he said "no bueno, we want you hitting up 3-5 degrees" I did gain about 25 yards simply from finding the center of the clubface and switching to a regular flex. "

You may very well gain another 20 if you are able to hit up on the ball like your instructor wants you to. I just haven't seemed to be able to get there with the driver - and when I do, I don't seem to hit it square.

 

[Bullitt5339]

" I called my instructor and told him that and he said "no bueno, we want you hitting up 3-5 degrees" I did gain about 25 yards simply from finding the center of the clubface and switching to a regular flex. "

You may very well gain another 20 if you are able to hit up on the ball like your instructor wants you to. I just haven't seemed to be able to get there with the driver - and when I do, I don't seem to hit it square.

That's been my problem as well. When I try to hit up on the driver, I leave the face wide open and bad things happen. I just keep telling myself it's a process and keep working.

 

[Bog33y]

Have you tried playing with your ball placement? A little further up in your stance could help with hitting it on the upswing and give you a fraction more time to get the club face closed at impact.

 

[Bullitt5339]

Have you tried playing with your ball placement? A little further up in your stance could help with hitting it on the upswing and give you a fraction more time to get the club face closed at impact.

I have to no avail. The good news is that my new instructor really understands my limitations because of my back and I'm sure once we get to that point in my lessons, he will get it all straight. He's a young kid but is a super instructor. I've had 2 lessons with him so far and he's simple, concise and to the point. We are working really hard on weight transfer and sequencing right now because I am horrible at both and he feels that time spent getting these right will pay off in dividends once we move on.