Help me understand power vs speed...

[Mystery Meat]

But that doesn't mean whatever distance you have gained is because of the ball.

It it has nothing to do with ball and equipment..yes this helps.. But big gains are just a natural hereditary gift. When I was mid 20's I was able to almost bench 300..with no help... I'm very very strong, but my muscles are strong not fast( fast twitch). For how tall and strong I still am, it is somewhat embarrassing how short i am off the tee. 260 is my max. I played slot of golf with a huge group of seniors, they would out drive me at times. I would out score them, but I was still average on their group.

people laughed at the videos if put up of lee Comeaux..I know his method is different. But when I flip at the bottom ( in feel) I gain the most distance. 230 avg to 260

 

[blugold]

It it has nothing to do with ball and equipment..yes this helps.. But big gains are just a natural hereditary gift. When I was mid 20's I was able to almost bench 300..with no help... I'm very very strong, but my muscles are strong not fast( fast twitch). For how tall and strong I still am, it is somewhat embarrassing how short i am off the tee. 260 is my max

I think you may be confused by what I am trying to say. At no point did I mention muscle strength. I said the ball isn't the reason for distance gains

 

[Mystery Meat]

I think you may be confused by what I am trying to say. At no point did I mention muscle strength. I said the ball isn't the reason for distance gains

I agree ten fold. It is just our make up ..not equipment or the golf ball.

 

[Mystery Meat]

:act-up:Once you establish a high/ low draw in your game. The distance the ball goes will be your max.

Agree? ..that is our goals as a casual/ avid..whatever amateur. Get the draw in your game,,,that will give you max distance and power.

angle attack/ club face alignment at impact is the formula for achieving..power. Or why you are losing it

bada bing..bada boom

 

[Tadashi70]

How this thread became what it did I'll never know. I think the OP was asking about speed and power as it relates to the golf swing.

Speed is learned at a young age. Power dials in the speed with proper technique. And when I say young, I'm not talking age. I'm talking early in ones golf career.

I like that people swing hard, that can be taught. But with proper technique power can be harnessed from that speed

 

[Mystery Meat]

:act-up:Tadashi

you nailed..when I was young. (7 years old) my lessons were always controlling the golf ball. I never ever learned distance..just center ball contact..hitting fairways and greens. I think young starters need to learn to hit far first .control second,

The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote, 'A flute with no holes is not a flute. And a doughnut with no hole is a danish.'"

thanks you

 

[blugold]

:act-up:Once you establish a high/ low draw in your game. The distance the ball goes will be your max.

Agree? ..that is our goals as a casual/ avid..whatever amateur. Get the draw in your game,,,that will give you max distance and power.

angle attack/ club face alignment at impact is the formula for achieving..power. Or why you are losing it

bada bing..bada boom

A draw isn't universally the longest shape fwiw. Fades can go as far or farther than a draw.

 

[drp3434]

:act-up:Tadashi

you nailed..when I was young. (7 years old) my lessons were always controlling the golf ball. I never ever learned distance..just center ball contact..hitting fairways and greens. I think young starters need to learn to hit far first .control second,

The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote, 'A flute with no holes is not a flute. And a doughnut with no hole is a danish.'"

thanks you

You think new golfers should be taught how to hit the ball far first, then learn how to control it? That seems backwards...

 

[blugold]

You think new golfers should be taught how to hit the ball far first, then learn how to control it? That seems backwards...

Control begets distance

I don't believe it goes the other way.

 

[BradMorris]

I wouldn't think of it as speed vs power. I would think of it as leverage/mechanics vs power. I can lift 500 lbs with a lever (mechanics), while some people can do it with their own strength (power). Now if I give the guy who can do it with his own strength, a lever, he can probably lift 2000 lbs.

In golf, we generally generate speed with a mixture of mechanics, and force. If the guy who uses mostly force (power) to generate speed is also taught mechanics, bombs away! However, the guy who uses mostly mechanics to generate speed is probably going to have a harder time adding a lot of power to his swing.

As for club head speed being the sole determinant of distance, it really depends on how long the ball is in contact with the club face and how much force is propelling the club head forward during that time. More forward force = more energy transfer to the ball, less forward force = less energy transfer to the ball. So in both cases, the club can be traveling at 100 mph when it contacts the ball, but one ball will travel farther than the other.

 

[rollin]

As for club head speed being the sole determinant of distance, it really depends on how long the ball is in contact with the club head and how much force is propelling the club head forward during that time. More forward force = more energy transfer to the ball, less forward force = less energy transfer to the ball. So in both cases, the club can be traveling at 100 mph when it contacts the ball, but one ball will travel farther than the other.

And transferring (to the ball) as much energy as possible from ones entire body's movements via correct timing to have it all come together best as possible is what makes that difference for more power even (like you say) if at the same speed. I like to think of it in layman terms as putting your body into the shot vs not as being the difference.

 

[Tadashi70]

You think new golfers should be taught how to hit the ball far first, then learn how to control it? That seems backwards...

That's exactly how it should be done. Take Faldo, he can disc exit a course like no other. But is very short. Trying to teach him distance would be next to impossible. It's easier to teach control after distance has been realized

 

[Mystery Meat]

:act-up: Agree with all of this now..good posts.,

either you learn and repeat it when u start off..are you never learn it

 

[blugold]

That's exactly how it should be done. Take Faldo, he can disc exit a course like no other. But is very short. Trying to teach him distance would be next to impossible. It's easier to teach control after distance has been realized

Distance should also increase as the swing improves correct?

 

[Tadashi70]

Distance should also increase as the swing improves correct?

Yes, but not like 20 or 30 yards but maybe 10 on a consistent basis. But it also depends on the player.

I am longer today through good mechanics then swing speed. I have tried to learn more speed and have added maybe 3-5mph when I'm feeling it. But everyday swing is 104.5 to 105.

 

[drp3434]

That's exactly how it should be done. Take Faldo, he can disc exit a course like no other. But is very short. Trying to teach him distance would be next to impossible. It's easier to teach control after distance has been realized

Couldn't a proper swing with good tempo give you both? Would he be as good as he is and control it as well as he does if he focused first on distance? Maybe. I believe you over me when it comes to this stuff, just seems backwards to me to teach hitting it far before teaching proper technique to hit it straight.

 

[Tadashi70]

Couldn't a proper swing with good tempo give you both? Would he be as good as he is and control it as well as he does if he focused first on distance? Maybe. I believe you over me when it comes to this stuff, just seems backwards to me to teach hitting it far before teaching proper technique to hit it straight.

How far do you hit your driver with a controlled balance swing? And what is your swing speed when this happens?

 

[drp3434]

How far do you hit your driver with a controlled balance swing? And what is your swing speed when this happens?

Probably 270, and o honestly don't know my swing speed for that.

 

[Tadashi70]

Probably 270, and o honestly don't know my swing speed for that.

I've never seen guy play but I would guess if we tried to add more power through proper position but swing speed more than likely not. My point is 270 is your maxed with control.

Kids and new comers try to hit it hard with sheer swing speed. The 300 yard bombs they hit sideways can be harnessed with correct swing and proper mechanics, harnessed power.

I will say this, most golfer waste 20% of their power with over swings. So there is room for more power, seldom speed

 

[Juddphoto]

I don't think ALL the distance gain is because of the ball. Players are fitter and better coached now. It's not because of the equipment.

Dear Blugold,
There is a big part of me that wants to agree with you. Why, because what you are saying is true about player fitness. But back in the early part of the last century and to this day, the number of quality coaches per quality players is remarkably similar. In fact if you think about the history of golf, a game of those who have vs. have nots, golf was passed from father to son in the privacy of the country club setting and under the tutelage of teaching pros like Harvey Penick in Texas and so many other great teachers around the country.

To the point about the ball. The Golden Bear himself began a very earnest campaign over fifteen years ago to get dramatic restrictions on the golf ball. He sees what it has done to the game and the great golf courses that are no longer capable of hosting major tournaments because of their length. He continues that battle today.

The changes to the ball design and construction being allowed is equivalent to allowing baseball teams to play with different balls, or tennis players having choices over which ball they will play when it is their serve. But perhaps the greatest injustice is to the game itself. Although some change takes place over time in equipment such as metal bats in college ball, or leather vs rubber in basketball etc. they rarely effect the game to the extent of the changes to the golf ball.

How do we compare the players like old Tom Morris to Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, even Jack Nicklaus, to today's players including Tiger, Ernie, Adam Scott all the way to Jordan Speith and Rory.

To give you an idea of how good Bobby Jones was, get a copy, sorry only on VCR through Amazon, of his four instructional videos. They are compiled from the short films he did in the early thirties. In one scene he hits a ball from the fairway 238 yards to the center of the green. With today's ball, I suspect Jones could do it from another fifty yards or more. These films by the way are hosted and produced by Jack Nicklaus who knew Bobby.

As golfers we are part of our history, our tradition, and that tradition begins with honesty. It makes it difficult or impossible to take an honest look at our history without adding more and more asterisks to explain significant equipment changes. Of course it does add a lot of fuel for future arguments which can be almost as entertaining as the game at times. Thanks for your interest.

 

[blugold]

The teachers now have tools that weren't available 15 years ago. Those tools have taught us how to make the swing more efficient and powerful.

That's a biggest difference to me. Not the ball.

And if I hear Jack cry about distance one more time, I going to puke

 

[drp3434]

I've never seen guy play but I would guess if we tried to add more power through proper position but swing speed more than likely not. My point is 270 is your maxed with control.

Kids and new comers try to hit it hard with sheer swing speed. The 300 yard bombs they hit sideways can be harnessed with correct swing and proper mechanics, harnessed power.

I will say this, most golfer waste 20% of their power with over swings. So there is room for more power, seldom speed

Don't want to get too far off topic by going into more about me, but i need some range time with you!

 

[fupresti]

A previous instructor always told me to swing fast, not hard. Helped me understand using too much force introduced a lot of issues into my swing.

 

[rollin]

I have a very recent and good example of power and speed. at least i think so . certainly know expert on this so more of an assumption.
My recent lesson (discussed in another thread) has lead to a swing change. Now bare in mind it is very new so I have yet to get better at it.
But in the same sim ("chamionship hd sim")
I was hitting my driver on the sim (old swing) were averaging mid 260's to high 270's for most shots with exception of "some" being less and 'some' being more. this is where i am at when i play and if my driver is working well that day.
My new swing (not yet tuned) I had the same ss and lauch except losing average of 15 yards. To me something i will need to figure out. But being same ss and same launch angle I must assume whatever it is i am doing is causing a loss of power. (correct if wrong) But it would stand to reason when (if) I get better with the newer swing I would get the distance back via added power. Swinging same speed and launch angle but i assume not with the same power is the only difference? I am just making an assumption here.