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Rules Question. What would you do?

Smallville said:
But Rule 18-1 is invoked first. Ball moved by outside agency. So the tee is gone. But the spot the tee was in the ground is still there.
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Yup. Take it off of the tee and drop it as close to the spot where the tee was placed as possible.

Consensus answer here? Haha

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Except I would place it, not drop it.
 
Smallville said:
Except I would place it, not drop it.
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20-3 c(i) - through the green, states it must be dropped.

The only time it is placed is if it's on the green.


This brings up the point again to just how ridiculous the rules of golf are when you are using that many numbers, letters, and dashes.
 
Golf Ghost said:
20-3 c(i) - through the green, states it must be dropped.

The only time it is placed is if it's on the green.


This brings up the point again to just how ridiculous the rules of golf are when you are using that many numbers, letters, and dashes.
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Yep, damn skimming! 18-1 says it must be replaced (not dropped), so that's where I was getting the placing.
 
DawgDaddy said:
I would think you get a free drop and also get to apologize to the group in front of you.
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We caught up to them on the tee three holes later and I did apologize to them. The funny part is they were not upset. The guy who teed it up just thought it was a cool thing to do as he walked by my ball walking back to his cart...

They are regulars at the club and always hit over the hill when the group in front is still putting as well.
 
Here are the rules involved, as correctly identified by Smallvile above:

------------
18-1. By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

Note 3: If it is impossible to determine the spot on which a ball is to be placed or replaced, see Rule 20-3c

20-3c

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i) through the green, the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;
-------------

In this case, it is virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball, as it's not reasonable to assume it settled 2" off the ground on a tee.

The spot where the ball had previously come to rest was not able to be determined, therefor the ball must be dropped as nearly as possible to where it lay.

I do carry the Rules of Golf app in my phone, and can search it very quickly and find the appropriate rule or decision. You do have to know the rules in general to get the most from this on the course.

One of my partners was adamant that I had to play it off the tee. One wanted to let me drop it within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole...

I dropped as close to the spot as possible after removing the tee, and looked up the rule on the next tee box while waiting for the group in front - just to confirm to my partners that the right rules were applied.

After the round, I confirmed with a friend of mine via text messages who teaches the rules clinics for the New England PGA Section. They actually have a question similar to this in the test that the PGA gives. He says the pro shop pros get it wrong 50% of the time.
 
Thanks Smalls for giving me the correct answer to agree with.
 
SmoothC83 said:
Thanks Smalls for giving me the correct answer to agree with.
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I wasn't 100% correct as I placed it, not dropped it.


But to the people who would have had him hit it off the tee: You guys are ruthless! hahaha
 
Smallville said:
I wasn't 100% correct as I placed it, not dropped it.


But to the people who would have had him hit it off the tee: You guys are ruthless! hahaha
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Haha I thought the same thing....brutal indeed.
 
thewitt said:
Here are the rules involved, as correctly identified by Smallvile above:

------------
18-1. By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

Note 3: If it is impossible to determine the spot on which a ball is to be placed or replaced, see Rule 20-3c

20-3c

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i) through the green, the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;
-------------

In this case, it is virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball, as it's not reasonable to assume it settled 2" off the ground on a tee.

The spot where the ball had previously come to rest was not able to be determined, therefor the ball must be dropped as nearly as possible to where it lay.

I do carry the Rules of Golf app in my phone, and can search it very quickly and find the appropriate rule or decision. You do have to know the rules in general to get the most from this on the course.

One of my partners was adamant that I had to play it off the tee. One wanted to let me drop it within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole...

I dropped as close to the spot as possible after removing the tee, and looked up the rule on the next tee box while waiting for the group in front - just to confirm to my partners that the right rules were applied.

After the round, I confirmed with a friend of mine via text messages who teaches the rules clinics for the New England PGA Section. They actually have a question similar to this in the test that the PGA gives. He says the pro shop pros get it wrong 50% of the time.
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I don't know if "virtual certainty" pertains here. Virtual certainty applies when there is no other possibility. You're assuming somebody teed it up. There is still a possibility that it rolled up on the tee.
 
blugold said:
I don't know if "virtual certainty" pertains here. Virtual certainty applies when there is no other possibility. You're assuming somebody teed it up. There is still a possibility that it rolled up on the tee.
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Your kidding right?
 
blugold said:
Nope. Virtual certainty pertains if there is no other possibility.
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I'm not sure I interpret it that way. Virtual is defined as something in essence or effect and not an actual fact, so I just don't see how you can definitively conclude there is no other possibility.
 
Rules Question. What would you do?

blugold said:
Nope. Virtual certainty pertains if there is no other possibility.
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Actually this is not true.

The legal definition of virtual certainty does not preclude there being other possibilities, only that the chance of one of these other options occurring is significantly rare to be highly unlikely given the circumstances.

If the USGA had wanted to say Absolute Certainty, they would have used that phrase.
 
SmoothC83 said:
I'm not sure I interpret it that way. Virtual is defined as something in essence or effect and not an actual fact, so I just don't see how you can definitively conclude there is no other possibility.
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I am definitely sure that I don't interpret it the way blu does.
 
Smallville said:
Come on, blu.
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SmoothC83 said:
I'm not sure I interpret it that way. Virtual is defined as something in essence or effect and not an actual fact, so I just don't see how you can definitively conclude there is no other possibility.
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I admittedly may be very wrong. I know what I am saying makes little sense. But that goes along with the nature of the USGA rules of golf.

thewitt said:
Actually this is not true.

The legal definition of virtual certainty does not preclude there being other possibilities, only that the chance of one of these other options occurring is significantly rare to be highly unlikely given the circumstances.

If the USGA had wanted to say Absolute Certainty, they would have used that phrase.
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Fair enough. In this case, I can see an official ruling that there is still a strong enough chance for the ball to roll up onto the tee.
 
blugold said:
I admittedly may be very wrong. I know what I am saying makes little sense. But that goes along with the nature of the USGA rules of golf.



Fair enough. In this case, I can see an official ruling that there is still a strong enough chance for the ball to roll up onto the tee.
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I do not disagree with you there. The fact that pro's have to resort to twenty minute delays in order to get a ruling from an official regarding just about every situation says everything you need to know about the rules of golf.
 
I think I need Golf Rules for Dummies or someone needs to make the rules more clear.
 
thewitt said:
Here are the rules involved, as correctly identified by Smallvile above:

------------
18-1. By Outside Agency

If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

Note 3: If it is impossible to determine the spot on which a ball is to be placed or replaced, see Rule 20-3c

20-3c

c. Spot Not Determinable
If it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced:

(i) through the green, the ball must be dropped as near as possible to the place where it lay but not in a hazard or on a putting green;
-------------

In this case, it is virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball, as it's not reasonable to assume it settled 2" off the ground on a tee.

The spot where the ball had previously come to rest was not able to be determined, therefor the ball must be dropped as nearly as possible to where it lay.

I do carry the Rules of Golf app in my phone, and can search it very quickly and find the appropriate rule or decision. You do have to know the rules in general to get the most from this on the course.

One of my partners was adamant that I had to play it off the tee. One wanted to let me drop it within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole...

I dropped as close to the spot as possible after removing the tee, and looked up the rule on the next tee box while waiting for the group in front - just to confirm to my partners that the right rules were applied.

After the round, I confirmed with a friend of mine via text messages who teaches the rules clinics for the New England PGA Section. They actually have a question similar to this in the test that the PGA gives. He says the pro shop pros get it wrong 50% of the time.
Click to expand...


THIS!!!!
Play two balls. Then discuss with the head pro. It always seems like shop pros like to "guess".
 
blugold said:
Fair enough. In this case, I can see an official ruling that there is still a strong enough chance for the ball to roll up onto the tee.
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Remember, in this case the ball was tee'd up two inches above the surface, so it would have had to more than just "roll" up onto the tee. If the ball was going to climb the tee, it should have saved itself the trouble and effort and just walked itself into the hole.
 
deuce said:
Remember, in this case the ball was tee'd up two inches above the surface, so it would have had to more than just "roll" up onto the tee. If the ball was going to climb the tee, it should have saved itself the trouble and effort and just walked itself into the hole.
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Wait, all I have to do is slip a 20 to the group ahead and make sure that my ball with "all virtual certainty" wound up in the hole? Golf just got more expensive and easier.
 
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