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Make this a tougher hole?

olvr_vrmr

olvr_vrmr

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The "What is the best way to make a golf course difficult" thread got me thinking...
11th.jpg


This is the 11th at the CC where I'm a member, a 290 yard par 4 (widest part: 50y, narrowest part on the green: 10y), lined with water on the right, trees and OB on the left. The teeing area is quite narrow, so excessively shaping a shot is out of the question. There is a big lonely tree in the middle of the fairway at about 210 yards and to the right of that is a fw bunker at 220y. A fairly elongated green with 2 tiers is protected with a small bunker on the left, but it sits on a rise, so a miss right could bounce into the water.

Most people play it pretty safe, long hitters take a 5i and place it in the wider part in front of the bunker and leave an easy wedge, favouring the left side of the green to avoid wet feet if they miss. Shorter hitters usually take driver and aim for the left side of the tree, where there's a bit more room for error. Some of the more accurate long hitters (only a few) just go for the green in one...risking wet feet but saving par since they're so close to the green after a wayward shot

So, in the spirit of the aforementioned topic, how would you toughen up this hole, as it currently is S.I. 18 on the scorecard. Some holes already underwent a redesign and I think this one also deserves an upgrade, so THP, give it your best shot!
 
Seems like a pretty good risk-reward hole. If the tree is large enough, I would be led to believe it would be a bit more difficult than the score card says, as any non well placed shot would result in a punch shot under.
 
That looks like a really cool hole already.

For the most part a sub-300 yard par 4 can only be so difficult, but to make this one tougher I would add a forced carry off the tee. Higher caps won't like it, but just add a little something to get the knees wobbling on the tee box.
 
Bring the water right to the edge of the green.
 
I have to be honest. I posted in that other thread that i dont believe holes should be too easy. But this one here (for a short hole) does have a lot of character imo. It does require some decision making and not so easy well placed tee shot and the narrow tee shoot is a big factor. I dont think anyhting anything need to be done except perhps more greenside bubnkers might be the only things one can add. if that tee shoot was wide open then maybe I would say differently. The average wekend hacker (correct me if wrong) I dont think always pars this hole.
 
rollin said:
I have to be honest. I posted in that other thread that i dont believe holes should be too easy. But this one here (for a short hole) does have a lot of character imo. It does require some decision making and not so easy well placed tee shot. I dont think anyhting anything need to be done except perhps more greenside bubnkers might be the only things one can add. The average wekend hacker (correct me if wrong) I dont think always pars this hole.
Click to expand...

the hole does play a bit harder than S.I. 18, but that is mainly due to the fact that there were some holes before the redesign that played a lot easier than their rating (par 4 14 was just a 320y straight hole, with a wide fairway and ditto green and a fw bunker on the right, but a giant bailout zone to the right of that due to another hole running alongside)...

The course as a whole plays pretty tough because it's lined with trees all around and any miss right is deadly (except for 10 and 14, where right misses can be playable), so accuracy is key. The only forced carry is on 14 from the back tees, where you have about 170y of lake in front of you...

I do like the idea of getting a bit of a knee knocker on this hole, improving the view from the tee box by adding forced carry, doesn't have to be a lot, say 150y, would also make for a visually appealing hole.
 
this hole looks great to me, for the longer hitters, there is a big enough risk so I wouldnt change the green area that much.

maybe add a fairway bunker or two on the left side of the fairway or on the right, short of the tree to add a bit of challenge for the people playing it in two
 
Adding bunkers to the left side of the green would force a good approach shot. Right is in the water and left is in the bunker. In addition, the bunker shot is gonna be terrifying knowing that the water is looming if the bunker shot is long.
 
Getting that water closer to the green, adding a bunker to the left side, making it a two or three tiered green... There are some pretty simple ways to make that hole harder to play I think.

They could also chop the front half of the green off and turn it into a bunker with a high face, blocking the green view. Smaller green + bunker short = players going long.
 
Canadan said:
Getting that water closer to the green, adding a bunker to the left side, making it a two or three tiered green... There are some pretty simple ways to make that hole harder to play I think.

They could also chop the front half of the green off and turn it into a bunker with a high face, blocking the green view. Smaller green + bunker short = players going long.
Click to expand...

oooh, I like that bunker in front thing...would indeed make this a lot more challenging...
 
That hole looks hard already. The tee shot needs to be left but the tee shot is coming out of chute. Does the tee box position make it difficult to hit it out to the left or are the trees not really a hinderance? I would maybe add a FW bunker in a tough layup spot on the left of the tree. That way everybody has decisions to make.
 
The only thin imo that can be done to make this harder is to do more to not allow those capable to drive the green successfuly to do so. Anyone else should be laying up anyway. Make that lake much larger and bring the water up to the green and also in front of the green all the way including most of that short front left fairway. Make it so its extremely hard for to drive it even for the best players. Make it so the short par4 is a par4 and only chance for bird is by one putting.
 
salisboss said:
That hole looks hard already. The tee shot needs to be left but the tee shot is coming out of chute. Does the tee box position make it difficult to hit it out to the left or are the trees not really a hinderance? I would maybe add a FW bunker in a tough layup spot on the left of the tree. That way everybody has decisions to make.
Click to expand...

there is a pretty clear line to the left of the tree for all tee boxes except the back tees...
 
It doesn't look that easy to me. It's got a risk/reward element yet it's still tough enough for those who play it safe.
 
Increase the risk-reward aspect: Make the greenside bunker much bigger, and take the lake closer to green. There is still the temptation to try to drive the green, but you would be punished for missing the green. As said, a bunker shot with water behind the green is intimidating for a high handicapper. Also an approach shot between a bunker and a lake is not very easy. Of course, you can make the green and the bunkers as difficult as you want.
 
I actually don't think that is a bad hole at all. I echo Canadan and would cut the front the 1/4 off the green and put a steep face bunker. I would put a couple of shallow bunkers in on the left of the green. Pinch the water in closer to the green on the right by about 10 feet. Makes that much tigher green complex and forces good wedge and short iron play.

In the fairway I would expand the right side bunker and pull it closer to the teeing area. I would add at least 2 bunkers to the left side of the fairway. One at 170 yards from the tee and one around 230 from the tee...shallow with out much front facing, but I would add some back facing to it to hide it some from the tee. I would slim the tree down some in the fairway to open up the center of the fairway some and I would actually expand the fairway on the back side of the tree some to give those who want to challenge the tree and bunkering in that 220-260 yard landing zone some reward for a well placed shot. Assuming that there are tees to accomadate that landing area size yardages from a varity of tees.
 
I would move the green to the right, on the edge of the water. I would also make the left a bigger bunker to give you a place to bail out but still have a little more challenge to get up and down for a birdie
 
Looks like a fun hole to me, but if you say the right side of the fairway is wider, I would add some advantage to push people to take it down the left as well as making it a bit more risky for the long hitters to take it at the green.

To do both, I think I would reposition the green to be a diagonal orientation from short left to back right. This would let people who go up the left have more green to work with, while giving less green to work with for those driving the green or going up the right.
 
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