HBO Future of golf!

[jitzy]

So the answer is bending the rules to make sure to keep a select few coming back? Each course has a pace of play. Failure to abide by that is no different than breaking any other rules, except that it impacts everyone else on the course.

What if your friends decided that instead of playing slower, they did not want to fix pitch marks, repair divots or even walk to the greens?

I dont think asking for someone to marginally follow the rules, makes anything elitist. In fact nothing of the sort really.

You kinda hit something there, I'm tired of being called and elitist because I follow the rules (for the most part) and have respect for the course and those around me. They talk in the story about golf with the 15 inch hole or foot golf, well that's all fine but it's not golf. I said something before about the rangers at a lot of the resort courses not wanting to do there jobs as to not piss off the people cause they paid so much to play there but by not doing it your pissing off others that wanna play in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[fupresti]

Dont forget the Bubble Burner that was $449.

I think the Biggest Big Bertha was in that range as well. You didn't even have to sell the stuff, people walked in with card in hand ready to pay with no hesitation.

 

[wubears71]

But do you really think the tour wants the guys sped up? Slower rounds on TV equates more advertising dollars.

The best Starter I've ever come across was at Shingle Creek in Orlando, FL. Before any group teed off he gave a little talk that went something like this:

1. You are not a professional and do not need to take as much time to setup like the guys you see on TV.
2. The pace of play is 4 Hr, 5 Min. Your cart has GPS and will inform you if you start falling behind. If you see the time behind go yellow, speed up. If it goes into the Red, pick up and go to the next hole. Otherwise, a marshal will be sent out to move you forward.
3. If you hit it out of bounds, in the high grass or another naturally maintained part of the course, do not spend a long time looking for your ball. If you look and don't see it immediately, take a drop and play on.
4. He then went onto tell everyone where the pin placement was on for the day and explained what all the different color stakes meant if one didn't know.
5. Finally he was really good about making groups tee off at the appropriate times. If you had a 1:20 tee time and the box was open but you were 30 minutes early, he instructed you to hit balls to warm up and then put. Also when it was busy, the group in front was on the green before the tee box group teed off.

Overall it was run extremely well and I don't think I played a single round over 3 hr 45 min even at peak times.

 

[Martsy]

i don't know about the rest of you guys...but i was kinda liking the idea of beer kegs at every water station... wonder why they tossed that one? :alien2:

 

[stevie-a]

So the answer is bending the rules to make sure to keep a select few coming back? Each course has a pace of play. Failure to abide by that is no different than breaking any other rules, except that it impacts everyone else on the course.

What if your friends decided that instead of playing slower, they did not want to fix pitch marks, repair divots or even walk to the greens?

I dont think asking for someone to marginally follow the rules, makes anything elitist. In fact nothing of the sort really.

And that's the problem with this....the subjective rule of what is proper pace of play. I'm not disagreeing with you that 4 hours is more than enough time to play a round, but we are not a new player either. If a golf course wants to attract new players, you have to make changes that welcome and accomodate them--whether that be larger holes or the ability to play at a slower pace.

 

[Harvmp28]

But new players don't need time, I play with a single digit capper who I can't get off the course in less than 430-445 in a foursome hes just slow and thinks he deserves it cause hes pretty good, or maybe he has no perception of time when hes up, he is not a ready golfer. High or low cap ready golf is ready golf. That needs to be taught

 

[jitzy]

And that's the problem with this....the subjective rule of what is proper pace of play. I'm not disagreeing with you that 4 hours is more than enough time to play a round, but we are not a new player either. If a golf course wants to attract new players, you have to make changes that welcome and accomodate them--whether that be larger holes or the ability to play at a slower pace.

But then you run the risk of loosing your core players. I know my group would not go to a place like that.

 

[wubears71]

First of all, I can't believe this thread turned into a debate about 9 holes vs. 18 holes and pace of play. If people actually watched the video, they would see that pace of play was barely talked about in it (if at all), and it was more talking about decreasing numbers of players in golf and what could be done to stimulate new players to come into the game.

The fact that it was barely talked about is IMHO why golf is on the decline. Like myself, the majority of people I played with 5 to 15 years ago now no longer play due to lack of time and family commitments. It's no longer socially acceptable for Dad to take 6 hours out of his morning every Saturday to go play 18 holes with his friends while Mom stays home with the kids. Now there is so much crap kids do and frankly Fathers are more involved in the family that they ever have been in the past. Speed up the game so that it's feasible to get a round in 3 to 3.5 hours even during peak times (or find ways to play more than 9 but less than 18).

It's really no different as to why one doesn't see the local neighborhood bar anymore - I know no one who goes to the bar after work to have a few drinks and then head home. However, it wasn't all that uncommon with my Dad's generation.

 

[tequila4kapp]

I am interested in the notion that course design contributes to the decrease in participation (along with cost and time). Generally, links courses encourage playing the ball on the ground and are more open - in other words it is perfectly acceptable to hit ugly, less precise shots. It is easier to take up the game when you can just move the ball forward in a generally straight direction. We design courses in America to require getting the ball in the air and hitting to particular spots. It makes the game too hard for beginners.

 

[JB]

And that's the problem with this....the subjective rule of what is proper pace of play. I'm not disagreeing with you that 4 hours is more than enough time to play a round, but we are not a new player either. If a golf course wants to attract new players, you have to make changes that welcome and accomodate them--whether that be larger holes or the ability to play at a slower pace.

Why? Why does having a time limit keep new players away in golf and not in any other sport in the world? I just dont buy that argument.
Accomodating a newcomer is about giving them an enjoyable experience. It does not take larger holes or more time to do that.
And FWIW, I dont think newcomers to the game are the slowest out there, there are just as many solid single digits that take forever.

 

[stevie-a]

But then you run the risk of loosing your core players. I know my group would not go to a place like that.

Again, I agree with you. Just stating that for the issue of new interest in golf decreasing, courses and the game itself will need to do things that align with new and younger players.

 

[SkiBumGolfer]

I am interested in the notion that course design contributes to the decrease in participation (along with cost and time). Generally, links courses encourage playing the ball on the ground and are more open - in other words it is perfectly acceptable to hit ugly, less precise shots. It is easier to take up the game when you can just move the ball forward in a generally straight direction. We design courses in America to require getting the ball in the air and hitting to particular spots. It makes the game too hard for beginners.

Yep, and even when we try to design "links" courses, we typically add a bunch of water hazards. Courses like Bandon and Chambers are the exception to that rule of course, but for the most part we just can't resist adding water.

 

[stevie-a]

Why? Why does having a time limit keep new players away in golf and not in any other sport in the world? I just dont buy that argument.
Accomodating a newcomer is about giving them an enjoyable experience. It does not take larger holes or more time to do that.
And FWIW, I dont think newcomers to the game are the slowest out there, there are just as many solid single digits that take forever.

So having someone ride your ass about how fast you are playing is an enjoyable experience?

 

[jitzy]

So having someone ride your ass about how fast you are playing is an enjoyable experience?

I dont think they need to be ridden like that but if they are ruining the day for everyone else they need to pic it up.

 

[JB]

So having someone ride your ass about how fast you are playing is an enjoyable experience?

Its part of the rules. Again, why should golf change the rules and no other sport does? Spending an extra hour on the course should not be the deciding factor on if it was enjoyable. If the sport cant be enjoyable in 4.5 hours, frankly its not the right fit. Couple that with the solution to penalize the rest of the golfers on the course just makes no sense. The solution that does make sense is the same one in every sport. Have participants follow the basic rules set up by the facility.

 

[wubears71]

So having someone ride your ass about how fast you are playing is an enjoyable experience?

Why do the newbies have to play with the experienced player? Segregate the two. Furthermore, the newbies won't be as intimidated when he/she duffs it into the junk just after his/her partner blasts it 300 yards straight down the fairway.

I am also a distance runner and we don't send everyone out at the same time. We all go out in 30 second increments in regards to our target mileage speed. The equivalent for golf would be to leave the early tee times for the faster, better golfers and leave the non-premium tee times for the people that want/need to take all the time they need to figure out the game.

 

[blugold]

Part of being a newcomer is learning the etiquette of the game. Like pace of play.

 

[stevie-a]

I dont think they need to be ridden like that but if they are ruining the day for everyone else they need to pic it up.

But that's the issue, finding the balance between allowing a new player to be exactly that -- a new player. Pretty much goes without saying that a new player is going to need 4-5 shots to get to the green on a par 4, and that's probably being generous... I get just as frustrated as everyone else that has commented does, but then when I've played with new players I can see how it gets frustrating, both from a skill perspective as well as from the marshall riding our ass constantly.

Force novice players to play later in the day at a discounted rate? Perhaps...but that's not fair to your core group, unless you package it as the price of playing quicker...otherwise pay less with the understanding that it may/will take longer than normal.

There's not a simple solution, obviously...but whoever comes up with it will be rich, kinda like the Top Golf idea.

 

[blugold]

Why do the newbies have to play with the experienced player? Segregate the two. Furthermore, the newbies won't be as intimidated when he/she duffs it into the junk just after his/her partner blasts it 300 yards straight down the fairway.

I am also a distance runner and we don't send everyone out at the same time. We all go out in 30 second increments in regards to our target mileage speed. The equivalent for golf would be to leave the early tee times for the faster, better golfers and leave the non-premium tee times for the people that want/need to take all the time they need to figure out the game.

I don't like that at all. If a course made me play at a different time than my dad and brother, I would stop playing that course. If every course did that, I would find another past time to enjoy with my kin folk.

 

[JB]

But that's the issue, finding the balance between allowing a new player to be exactly that -- a new player. Pretty much goes without saying that a new player is going to need 4-5 shots to get to the green on a par 4, and that's probably being generous... I get just as frustrated as everyone else that has commented does, but then when I've played with new players I can see how it gets frustrating, both from a skill perspective as well as from the marshall riding our ass constantly.

Force novice players to play later in the day at a discounted rate? Perhaps...but that's not fair to your core group, unless you package it as the price of playing quicker...otherwise pay less with the understanding that it may/will take longer than normal.

There's not a simple solution, obviously...but whoever comes up with it will be rich, kinda like the Top Golf idea.

This still goes back to the idea that newcomers are slow at golf. People seem to assume that more strokes means more time and that is only true with all other things being equal. Experienced good players are just as slow.

 

[jitzy]

This still goes back to the idea that newcomers are slow at golf. People seem to assume that more strokes means more time and that is only true with all other things being equal. Experienced good players are just as slow.

So true, some of the slowest people I've played with are also some of the best golfers.

 

[stevie-a]

This still goes back to the idea that newcomers are slow at golf. People seem to assume that more strokes means more time and that is only true with all other things being equal. Experienced good players are just as slow.

The original discussion is about attracting and retaining new players. I agree that some experienced players take far too long...but I'm not focusing on them, I've only been commenting about how to bring new players to the game. As you said, all things being equal it is still going to come down to them needing more strokes to get the ball to the hole which equals taking longer to play a round.

 

[sparksjr]

...I play with a single digit capper who I can't get off the course in less than 430-445 in a foursome...he is not a ready golfer...

I know this feeling!

 

[JB]

The original discussion is about attracting and retaining new players. I agree that some experienced players take far too long...but I'm not focusing on them, I've only been commenting about how to bring new players to the game. As you said, all things being equal it is still going to come down to them needing more strokes to get the ball to the hole which equals taking longer to play a round.

But making it faster does attract new golfers. Experienced players need to move faster. So do newcomers. Courses enforcing rules is a big start.

 

[Speedliner]

Not really though. I used to think that, but the time allotment has not changed. They absolutely would like to show more golf.

Is most time spent on the greens on tour? Easiest place to accelerate but I wonder how many putts would be missed.