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Shaft Flex - Does it matter?

Nippon Shafts
It seems entirely possible a S to an X isn't a big deal. An R to an X, possibly yet. However, if it give a person confidence, that can be worth the price of gold.
 
Shaft flex matters /does not matter in the same way that shirt sizes matter (or not). If you've got a 42" chest almost no S or XXL shirt is going to work for you. After that, it just depends.
 
I think the general statement that shaft flex doesn't matter is just too broad to be accurate.

I agree with blu that from brand to brand you are never really talking apples to apples and as such any comparison isn't worth much. At least regarding terms 'stiff' 'regular' etc.

I switch between a Kai'Li regular, a 6x3 stiff, a Kusala white 72S and 61X and results are not crazy different but they are different enough that even a hack like me can notice. I do have a late release which is said to be influenced by shaft flex/bend point a little more.
 
blugold said:
Here's my point Jrod. A XX black tie will play very different than a R black tie.

But does a XX ProLaunch Blue play exactly the same as a Black Tie with the same stamped flex? That's where I'm coming from. All I'm saying.
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I agree 100%. There is no uniform flex between manufacturers.

However when I was crushing that ladies hybrid I was putting perfect swings on the ball. If I'm swinging at 120 MPH and flip or make a bad swing with an R flex shaft the miss is going to be magnified a lot more than had I been using an X flex.

At least I would imagine.
 
Most of the time a different flex equates to a different weight. What I've found is that the weight is so much more important than the flex.

Flex has to matter but it's further down the list than weight and length.
 
JRod said:
I agree 100%. There is no uniform flex between manufacturers.

However when I was crushing that ladies hybrid I was putting perfect swings on the ball. If I'm swinging at 120 MPH and flip or make a bad swing with an R flex shaft the miss is going to be magnified a lot more than had I been using an X flex.

At least I would imagine.
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Like Crossfield mentioned in the article, a long time ago, Karsten Solheim did studies and found that regardless of ability, he found that when you put a stiff flex in someone hands, they tend to hit straighter shots. He never figured out why though.
Id actually like to see someone do a study with a robot that can do different swing speeds and different tempos to really see if theres a difference. Not that I dont trust Crossfield's numbers but you are always going to have people who question him because by having a human do it, theres always going to be people questioning how valid the numbers are.
 
I think weight and torque has more to do with it then an arbitrary flex rating that is going to differ among shafts of the same make/model at times. I also think it's most important to find the right fit for beginner golfers as better/experienced players are more likely to adjust their swing for the shaft. I can't do it though. I have a high swing speed compared to average (95 with a 7 iron, 110+ with driver) and a hard/abrubt transition. I perform much better with a heavy, very stiff, low torque shaft. When I try a lightweight shaft I swing out of control and bad things happen. I try to slow down and can't do it, or the slowing down introduces other problems. The fitter at the Taylormade Performance lab says low torque is especially important with fast swings and abrupt transitions because the club is resisting the force being applied to it giving me (or hard swingers) a chance to make contact with the ball with a club face closer to what is being attempted (as opposed to a lightweight high torque shaft that is twisted open and hanging back due to the force applied).

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, and probably applies to very few golfers overall, and to even less new golfers. But I didn't have this knowledge when I started and got the opposite "standard" input when beginning and it made for a miserable first few months of golf. I've had two professional fittings from two different companies (Club Champion and Taylormade Performance Labs) and both proved this for me.
 
Interesting part in the torque thoughts above. In some ways another arbitrary number however as there is no standard to measure and every shaft company can do it differently.
 
Badger_Golfer said:
Like Crossfield mentioned in the article, a long time ago, Karsten Solheim did studies and found that regardless of ability, he found that when you put a stiff flex in someone hands, they tend to hit straighter shots. He never figured out why though.
Id actually like to see someone do a study with a robot that can do different swing speeds and different tempos to really see if theres a difference. Not that I dont trust Crossfield's numbers but you are always going to have people who question him because by having a human do it, theres always going to be people questioning how valid the numbers are.
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The human reacts to the change in shaft flex, weight, swingweight and other factors. A robot can only tell us how good the equipment is and how it works not how we will use it. I have always liked to see human testing over robotic testing. I know most disagree with me on this. I think Wishon is on to something too, with his "if you're not a late releaser of the club flex doesn't matter" as much. jrod may have hit the woman's flex shaft so good because it was lighter and he was reacting to what he felt and how he needed to swing to get the tool to work properly for him.
 
JB said:
Interesting part in the torque thoughts above. In some ways another arbitrary number however as there is no standard to measure and every shaft company can do it differently.
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And it wasn't put so nicely. I am struggling with the driver right now and performed best at the wood fitting with the black tie 7m3 in X-flex. I went from slicing 30 yards with the stiff/ Rul 60, red tie, and white tie shafts to drives 7-10 yards off line with the black tie in X. But none were going real far with my swing that day as I was coming OTT slightly and making contact on the heel. I think the longest was like 246 carry. The fitter more or less said that the heavier, stiffer shaft was resisting my swing flaws and helping. We didn't continue the fitting because he said he'd be fitting a flawed swing that day that would likely change again. Since we stopped I didn't get to try any of the shafts in the 80 gram range or the other makes in x. The 7Q3/Red Tie in X is heavier with lower torque than the 7M3/Black Tie (Red:78.5/2.6 vs Black:73/3.8). I want to order my next driver shorter than standard to play at 44.5 which would put me even ligther in the black tie, but still keep me in the high 70's with the red tie. I'm just not sure about the spin and launch characteristics of the red tie (but a mid launch/mid spin red tie may work great for me in a low spin head like the SLDR).

And I agree that torque is as arbitrary as flex labeling, but generally speaking it's a ratio of heavier weight/lower torque. And generally speaking heavier weight/lower torque also equates to lower launch and spin numbers, but that's not always the case (ex: Red Tie vs. Black Tie).
 
Seems to me that a swing with an abrupt change that results in high shaft loading would result in longer distance if consistently released at the right point, but also produce higher shot dispersion, and that dispersion can be reduced by using a shaft that won't load as much with the tradeoff being a loss in potential distance.

Or am I just totally wrong on this?
 
A ton of comments in here & I'll admit I skimmed through most of it, but my two cents is that for me flex doesn't matter as much as weight & shaft characteristics.

I know my swing speed and transition/tempo so I like a lighter shaft that launches mid to mid/high. I go with a lighter shaft in R flex bc with this particular shaft manufacturer I like the ball flight it produces.

I'll give this as an example. Sunday night after singles matches at the MC I hit Nate's new Srixon driver. First thought was man this is heavier than my normal gamer. I took a swing and still produced that 5-10 yd draw I like, but I immediately noticed the ball flight was lower & the heavier shaft drastically reduced my distance. Now anyone that has seen both Nate & I play knows that he is a good 30 yds longer off the tee from me & I should have no business hitting his driver, but I did and hit it well. So I proved flex didn't matter as much as weight and characteristics.
 
JB said:
:confused2:
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Not what you said - what the fitter said was what was not put so lightly. We did the iron and wood fitting seperately and he seemed shocked in a good way during my iron fitting, and shocked in a very bad way with my attempted driver/wood fitting.
 
-CRW- said:
Not what you said - what the fitter said was what was not put so lightly. We did the iron and wood fitting seperately and he seemed shocked in a good way during my iron fitting, and shocked in a very bad way with my attempted driver/wood fitting.
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I should have added words. That is what I meant. It kills me to see some of these guys not go the extra mile and explain it a little better. Hopefully it all works out for you and you get everything dialed in.
 
I can't see a ton of difference in iron flexes. Hell, I have a 56* in senior flex in the bag right now, and as long as I keep it smooth, I'm ok with it. Crank it up, and I'm all over the lot.
When I bought my latest irons I hit the stiff and the regular, and there wasn't much difference in ballflight other than it felt "easier" to swing the regs. Hardly science.

With the driver, I have found that there's a too stiff (high slice) and a too soft (snap hook), but there's a big range of not making much difference. Is that all shaft profile? Maybe. I haven't had the ability to try the same shafts in different flexes other than in sims, and I have never made a sim replicate what I see on the course.
 
JB said:
Interesting part in the torque thoughts above. In some ways another arbitrary number however as there is no standard to measure and every shaft company can do it differently.
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Yes. I read an article once, by one of the guys at SCOR, in which the author stated that the majority of a shaft's feel comes from its torque, not flex. Just so happens that stiffer often means less torque, but not absolutely.

Last year I tried a RFE driver with the Trinity shaft in Stiff and hit it very well. Tried it with the Regular shaft and hit it poorly - short and excess draw.

Not going to guess as to why, but with Drivers in particular I do see a difference sometimes. Today I just try options and ignore the label. Without standards it's pointless to compare by label.
 
Speedliner said:
Yes. I read an article once, by one of the guys at SCOR, in which the author stated that the majority of a shaft's feel comes from its torque, not flex. Just so happens that stiffer often means less torque, but not absolutely.
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It's typically the opposite. Stiffer means less torque. Torque in a shaft is it's resistance to being bent/twisted/flexed. A lower number means it bends/twists less. It's also typical to see heavier shafts have lower torque. That's because for a shaft to be heavier than a similar shaft of the same length it has to be more dense (more material in the same amount of space), which results in a stiffer shaft with lower torque. That is assuming you are using the same or similar materials.

For example, steel x-flex shafts are going to have lower torque than graphite x-flex shafts more often than not. But a regular flex steel could have higher torque than a x-flex graphite by nature of the design for the flex.
 
-CRW- said:
It's typically the opposite. Stiffer means less torque.
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Isn't that what I said, Stiffer typically means less torque?
 
jlukes said:
Agreed. learned this the hard way. Shafts aren't going to drastically change numbers. However, what I did learn is that even if the numbers are the same, different shafts (and sometimes flexes) can FEEL different, and finding one that feels the best with your swing is a good thing.
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Yep, when i was fitted for my 910D2 I chose the PX 7C3 stiff over the whiteboard stiff because it just "felt" better to me even though all of the numbers (launch angle, distance, ball speed, etc) were almost identical.
 
IMO shaft flex and a good shaft fitting is a little factor for someone to play their best but the human body will adapt and be able to play any flex shaft respectably but probably not your best. I also don't think many of us would be able to tell much of a difference since there is no standard on how stiff or weak a shaft can play.
 
Speedliner said:
Isn't that what I said, Stiffer typically means less torque?
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You did, for some reason I thought you were implying less resistance to torque. It's been a long busy day for me. Carry on, nothing to see here...
 
Here is the follow up video with more data that supports the point that shaft flex isn't a huge piece of the puzzle. Remember, he isn't saying it doesn't matter at all. He's saying that shaft flex is one tiny piece of the overall puzzle and there are more important things to worry about like loft, dynamic loft, club face, club path, strike, and more.

http://youtu.be/ZVZ3PCgxTlw
 
-CRW- said:
You did, for some reason I thought you were implying less resistance to torque. It's been a long busy day for me. Carry on, nothing to see here...
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Lol. NP. Was rereading and retreading wondering how I got that wrong. :)
 
aPeglegNinja said:
Here is the follow up video with more data that supports the point that shaft flex isn't a huge piece of the puzzle. Remember, he isn't saying it doesn't matter at all. He's saying that shaft flex is one tiny piece of the overall puzzle and there are more important things to worry about like loft, dynamic loft, club face, club path, strike, and more.

http://youtu.be/ZVZ3PCgxTlw
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He doesn't cover it, but his worst shot with the x-flex is around the same as his worst with the A-flex. His best with the x, and two out three shots, was significantly closer to his target line than the a-flex. And he's an admitted short/non-power hitter and likely has an even tempo and smooth overall swing. So his reality is not going to be the reality for everyone.
 
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