Gambling While Using Handicap

[Greg Kulbick]

Yeah Mike, that's awesome. I've always been curious how many do carryovers and it certainly loads up the pressure when you get a few!

My normal group of guys will do a quarter a hole skins with carryovers. Most of us are pretty evenly matched mid cappers, so there can be holes that are pushed with doubles or with birdies. Friday after work I played pretty poorly, parred 3 holes and still got 7 of 9 skins because of carryovers. Three holes carrying over can make for some interesting smack talk. None of us are scaring any course records, but we have a good time with a pocket in the golf bag full of change.

 

[Maddog701]

I've always been a fan of a signed dollar, five bucks, or a beer at the end of the round. Never ever had any issues with that, even with handicaps involved.

It's when the number starts creeping up that I get bored of the idea. It just seems so stupid.

I would rather beat a buddy out of $2 bucks and have a good natured chops busting week than take a buddy for big $ and strain a friendship.

or a nice skins game that the most you could lose is $5-$10 in the pot. this way if you don't grab a skin, it is entirely on you!

 

[emart2173]

I hate giving strokes, especially in a skins game or for money. It's a necessary evil if I want to gamble but I still do not like it. I don't like it because most people have no idea what their true handicap is and are just guessing. And I always seem to get the 15 hdcp that has a banner day. It's not sandbagging to me is just being lazy and not punching in your scores. If at all possible I try to make the bets are weighted for me.

Let's put it this way, I don't ask for shots when playing my buddies on tour. I play them straight up and learn a great deal.

I'd play you straight up even though it would lead to a beat down but I'll take it like a man

 

[Dave Alvarado]

Let's put it this way, I don't ask for shots when playing my buddies on tour. I play them straight up and learn a great deal.

I'd go heads-up with a LPGA tour player from the whites and it would be a cheap lesson for what I'd learn.

 

[blugold]

The USGA has a plan in place for rehandicapping of holes. But, it requires extra effort from the course staff. The holes get handicapped when the course is designed and rated. But, after that I don't know of any courses that ever reevaluate the hole handicaps. Any large individual stroke play event should provide enough scorecards to do the reevaluation. It's just getting someone to crunch the numbers.


http://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=25

Section 17

Allocating Handicap Strokes

Q. Does the USGA® have any recommendations for allocating Handicap Strokes?

A. The USGA recommends that the Handicap Committee should review the course hole-by-hole to determine the appropriate allocation of handicap strokes for men and women. This procedure is not mandatory and will have minimal effect on a player's Handicap Index®. Common sense should be used to ensure that the handicap strokes are used as an equalizer and should be available where it most likely will be needed by the higher-handicapped player in order to obtain a halve on the hole. When starting out, the Handicap Committee should remember a few basic guidelines: Allocate strokes based on the tees played most often by a majority of the members. Allocate the odd-numbered strokes to the front-nine holes and the even-numbered strokes to the back-nine holes—unless the back-nine is decidedly more difficult than the front—you can reverse the allocation. Avoid allocating the low numbered holes to the beginning or end of the nine holes A method for allocating your handicap strokes is to collect 200 hole-by-hole scorecards from two different groups of golfers. Group A consists of golfers with a Course Handicap™ of 0-8 for men or 0-14 for women. If there are very few members within this range, take the low 25 percent of its golfers as group A.Group B consists of middle-to-high Course Handicap golfers, ranging 15-20 strokes higher than group A (20-28 for men and 26-40 for women). The next step is to compare the average score per hole for group A against the average score per hole of group B. Rank the differential of hole scores between group A and group B from high-to-low (1 highest, 18 lowest) differential. Allocate odd and even numbers to front and second nine. The last step is to make sure low numerical holes are not at the beginning or end of each nine. The Handicap Committee should use good judgment when allocating handicap stroke holes. The club makes the final determination. Please visit Section 17 of the USGA Handicap System manual for further reference.

My home course did this reevaluation.

http://www.thehackersparadise.com/f...5408-Hole-Handicap-What-does-it-actually-mean

 

[Tadashi70]

This is interesting. Why an LPGA player?

I'd go heads-up with a LPGA tour player from the whites and it would be a cheap lesson for what I'd learn.

 

[McLovin]

The more I am around gambling on the course, the less I want to be a part of it -- Today made me realize that my joy of beating par is WILDLY more enjoyable to me than beating someone with handicap (or no handicap for that matter) and taking their money.

came here to say exactly this. i play golf for the challenge of playing to the best of my abilities, the possibility of setting a new personal best, and maybe hitting some shots that warm the soul. those are all i need, so adding the element of gambling is nothing more than a distraction.

 

[Dave Alvarado]

This is interesting. Why an LPGA player?

Attainable distances. My distances are just a bit short of LPGA tour averages, and I'm getting longer with lessons. I feel like I can learn more from their game than the men--how a LPGA player thinks her way around a course is more directly applicable to my game.

I'm going off of this:

 

[Tadashi70]

Soooo....you're saying you play like a girl :blob:

Attainable distances. My distances are just a bit short of LPGA tour averages, and I'm getting longer with lessons. I feel like I can learn more from their game than the men--how a LPGA player thinks her way around a course is more directly applicable to my game.

I'm going off of this:

 

[Dave Alvarado]

Soooo....you're saying you play like a girl :blob:

I wish I played like those girls.

 

[xhail]

I play with a large group of guys that will travel around to different course. We all have GHIN handicaps so it helps when we all play different tees. You can use the handicap calculator app and see what everyone should be on that particular course and play with grease. A majority of the time the better handicaps will win but the high handicaps will have their day. Now in league play they play match play with handicaps and it is downright unfair at times.

 

[Atxpkrgolf]

I gotta admit, I'm genuinely surprised by a lot of these answers. Based on what I am reading, lower handicap golfers really should never be involved in money games with higher handicapped players.

I will use one response as an example. "I hate being close to par and losing money". So in another words as a near scratch golfer if you shoot to your index it doesn't matter if the person shoots to theirs.

It's a shame really. I look at these posts as if I'm scratch and shoot my index that a high capper shooting better than theirs shouldn't win because I'm better. I shouldn't view it that way, but honestly that's what's being said in some posts

I like the handicap system for the games. Personally I like competing with all levels of skill.

I gotta re-read these answers but I will say this. As a scratch, I have never shot 65 or even sniffed 67. I don't even hear of scratch players ever do in this so why is it ok for someone who claims to be a 20 shoot in the 70s? Honest question

 

[Dave Alvarado]

I gotta re-read these answers but I will say this. As a scratch, I have never shot 65 or even sniffed 67. I don't even hear of scratch players ever do in this so why is it ok for someone who claims to be a 20 shoot in the 70s? Honest question

Exactly. I've shot 5-8 under my handicap a couple times because I'm taking lessons and it's easy to lower a high handicap. I've never heard of a scratch shooting 5-8 under their handicap--if you could do it, you wouldn't be scratch, you'd be +1 or +2 or something.

 

[Harvmp28]

I don't gamble using handicap, so I haven't run into any of these issues. But I could see where there are problems on both sides of the debate of giving or getting strokes. I know guys that are single low single digit and disservice themselves by not posting bad score while in a slump, all in the name of vanity. And then most obviously we know the high cappers that sandbag out there. No game will ever be fun or fair if all players aren't honest. I wouldn't mind gambling with handicap as an overall net score, not hole by hole analysis like saying you can lose a hole with a birdie. That would suck no matter who you are.

 

[Mulligan9111]

Exactly. I've shot 5-8 under my handicap a couple times because I'm taking lessons and it's easy to lower a high handicap. I've never heard of a scratch shooting 5-8 under their handicap--if you could do it, you wouldn't be scratch, you'd be +1 or +2 or something.

As a 4 handicap, I've got 2 scores from this year that are keeping me at my handicap. Both of them were rounds of 2 under par (scores of 70 and 69). Both instances the course rating (or what a scratch player should shoot) was a 71.8 and a 71.2 respectively. Unfortunately, in the events that I play in, it's more likely that a higher handicap (in the 15-20 range) golfer will have a "crazy" good round and net to a crazy low 60 score than it is for a scratch/single digit handicap golfer to shoot a crazy low 60 score.

As the saying goes, it is what it is.

 

[c0ncept]

I will give strokes but I will never bet based on the exact handicaps. Besides the pre-round haggling is quite a bit of fun.

 

[Johnny Hack]

Actually no, you don't. The whole idea behind rating holes by handicap is that when it is done correctly, you are less likely to need a stroke on that hole than is the 12 handicap to match his score. If you do, then your 5 is likely a vanity cap. The number 1 handicap hole is rarely the hardest hole on the course. It should be the hole where the bogey golfer is more likely to have some trouble and need that stroke to match a scratch golfer, which can just as easily be a par 5 hole which the better player sees as a birdie hole, while the bogey golfer sees nothing but trouble. If you take a stroke on that hole, you gain a huge advantage over the weaker player. He might just as well concede the hole on the tee.

I played a match a few years ago giving 21 strokes, and took the match right to the 18th hole, then lost by missing a 3 foot putt. The handicap system worked perfectly, my stroke didn't.

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
So if I am a 5 Hcp playing a 4 Hcp I would get my stroke on the #1 Hcp Hole. By your logic that would be fair to me the 5 Hcp as well as to my opponent the 4 Hcp. On that I call Baloney. I feel that everyone deserves their strokes where they fall, cause you are saying then that (by your example) the higher Hcper (12) against the lower Hcper(5), thus playing it as a differential only gets strokes on Hcp rated holes 1-7 and doesn't need the strokes he has rightly earned on Hcp rated holes 8,9,10,11,12, thus the logic of this system seems to escape me. I do now, have before, and always will say that if you are going to use Hcps, then everyone gets their full, or have a nice game I will just play along and let all wagers be among the other players. And also by the way, I wouldn't even give my Mom 21 strokes in a gambling game, if the differentials are that big then there shouldn't be a wager but possibly instead some helpful coaching in its place. Just my $.02 worth.

 

[blugold]

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
So if I am a 5 Hcp playing a 4 Hcp I would get my stroke on the #1 Hcp Hole. By your logic that would be fair to me the 5 Hcp as well as to my opponent the 4 Hcp. On that I call Baloney. I feel that everyone deserves their strokes where they fall, cause you are saying then that (by your example) the higher Hcper (12) against the lower Hcper(5), thus playing it as a differential only gets strokes on Hcp rated holes 1-7 and doesn't need the strokes he has rightly earned on Hcp rated holes 8,9,10,11,12, thus the logic of this system seems to escape me. I do now, have before, and always will say that if you are going to use Hcps, then everyone gets their full, or have a nice game I will just play along and let all wagers be among the other players. And also by the way, I wouldn't even give my Mom 21 strokes in a gambling game, if the differentials are that big then there shouldn't be a wager but possibly instead some helpful coaching in its place. Just my $.02 worth.

Hole handicap should not be determined by what is the most difficult hole. It's in the handicap manual.

 

[Atxpkrgolf]

the point above about a 4 HC playing a 5 I would never give or take a stroke here. In fact, I'd say anything within 2 shots should be played straight up and possibly even 3 shots. Handicap revisions happen every 2 weeks I believe and anything within 2 strokes is practically the same thing IMO.

 

[Johnny Hack]

Hole handicap should not be determined by what is the most difficult hole. It's in the handicap manual.

Its on the scorecards where I play

 

[gizmo3putt]

A golf buddy of mine and another of his friends convinced me to gamble with handicaps, I hesitated but then said sure, I was getting 3 strokes and the other friend got 5. No money on ties, I played good and didn't mind taking their couple of bucks. Me thinks they'll want revenge. Normally at other club we play straight up.

I don't mind the small amounts we gamble. It's more for bragging rights. It gives me a little more incentive to play smart.

 

[Hox30]

The reason low cappers or scratch golfers don't like giving strokes, is because it is much easier for a high HC to shoot below there HC than it is for a scratch golfer to. The high HC just has more wiggle room. That being said I don't mind doing it. Gambling on the course for small amounts makes the game more competitive thus more fun for me.

 

[widespot]

Handicaps are fine if everyone is on the up and up. Sadly, a lot of people aren't.

 

[blugold]

Its on the scorecards where I play

Then the scorecards are not following the USGA handicap manual

 

[McLovin]

the point above about a 4 HC playing a 5 I would never give or take a stroke here. In fact, I'd say anything within 2 shots should be played straight up and possibly even 3 shots. Handicap revisions happen every 2 weeks I believe and anything within 2 strokes is practically the same thing IMO.

that's actually exactly why the system exists. 17-1(b)(ii) - "The first handicap stroke should be allocated so that this stroke is most useful in matches between players of almost equal ability, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 1, 10 and 11, or 29 and 30. In such matches, the first handicap stroke will be of the greatest importance as an equalizer to the player receiving the stroke."

full disclosure: blugold has twice to my memory posted about how the number 1 handicap hole isn't the hardest hole (or at least shouldn't be). or maybe said differently, it's not a foregone conclusion that the number 1 hole is the hardest hole. after talking about with this with several golfers, we all agreed that he was wrong. in this thread he mentioned the handicap manual, so I read it and wouldn't you know he's right! it makes sense, and I owe him a thank you for the edumacation.


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